Do you think mainstream school is right for SN kids?

[whatever17]

Just wondering what people think.

I, personally, don't.

DS2 is tired of being "different" and I am delighted that he is going to a dyslexia (et al) secondary school in September. I think mainstream has toughened him up but it has been bloody hard.

It depends, but mostly, no I don't because I don't think the teachers get anywhere near enough training to be the experts in every kind of SEN the govt tries to persuade us they are.

Having said that DS gains lots from being with typically developing children but he has ABA support (for ASD) so in effect he has a special school curriculum delivered partly in a mainstream setting with autism specialists working 1:1 with him and that does work really well.

So I don't think you have to take the child out, I think you can also put the resources in but the idea a class teacher with 29 other children to teach has the time or expertise to teach DS themselves and become 'an autism expert' is ridiculous.

I also suspect I may feel very differently at secondary though and at that point ASD provision may be better.

I think it depends on the individual child to be honest. Some will thrive in mainstream and some will thrive in special school.

My ds1 is 4 and starts school in Sept (severe ASD). We're giving mainstream a whirl. The school we want him to get into is one that has a high level of knowledge and experience of ASD. Plus we wanted him to learn from typically developing peers. We're probably looking at special school down the road to secondary, but for now we'll mainstream it for as long as it's working for ds1.

My stepdad has Twins, both with ASD but both completely different, both grown up now.

He told me one was in a special school and did really well there and the other one loved her mainstream school. Obviously varying degrees of autism but I think it depends on the child...and on the school.

Depends on child and school IMO. Dd1 goes to mainstream school while ATM dd2 goes to specialist school but she is very young and hopefully will go into mainstream.
I think the problem falls with high functioning kids is they do have to learn to deal with people who don't understand because one day they will have to live and work in this world with little or no support and little understanding from others as they don't "appear to be that different"

I also think your op is quite rude, to suggest ALL SN kids shouldn't be in MS school :(

Dd2 is at ms school, she has HFA and severe language delay, she's doing well at MS, i don't really know if its the right place for her but then a SN school may not be the right place eaither, at times it feels like she doesn't really fit in anywhere, her IQ is too high for sn school but her language and social skills are not developed enough for MS. At the moment she's happy in MS and to me thats the most important thing, if at anytime she is not happy then i would look into other options.

It so depends on the child and the school and IME think the most important thing is for parents to remain vigilant about how their child is getting on and be prepared to move them quickly if it isn't working well.

I would say that parents should have a look at all the school options in their LEA and neighbouring so they know exactly what is available and can see where thier child will best fit.

For my child - no. However I have zero chance of getting lea to pay for independent so my only option is to move.

My son has noise sensitivities so a small village mainstream with small class sizes would be ideal instead of the 2 stream entry inner city primary he is about to start.

For my child, yes. he has thrived in MS secondary and his school have supported his needs all the way along after the first couple of terms.. Large secondary with 1,500 pupils, excellent communication between parent and staff.

DS 6.9 HFA, ADD & Sensory- is in MS school. He's been in the small SN class and it wasn't stimulating enough! He's now in the main class, teacher is excellent and they mould around him.
I might feel differently as he gets older with different teachers but I like that he's getting used to the world as it is IYKWIM?
TBH I don't know how much different a Special school would be and how they adapt the teaching for each child's needs etc - something I need to look into :)

No, ds has HFA and MS is totally inappropriate imo.

But where else can he go?

SN schools are generally for MLD which he doesn't have.

Depends on the child. Depends on the school.

I think mainstream is easier the smaller the child is tbh.
For some children it will always be right but I know a number of children who enjoyed/thrived in mainstream primary that were lost in secondary.

But for ds2 it was always special school. They are his peers. It is the environment where he feels safe enough, and is supported enough, to learn.

It very much depends on the child and the school in question.

I know some children with SN who thrive in MS. that is because both school and parents work together to make it so.
I know a great deal more who cannot get their child into a SN school and are stuck in MS that simply isn't working.

Initially i thought that DS simply wasn't severe enough to warrant a place in SN. By the time he got to yr2 it was clear that MS wasn't giving him what he needed. The Senco at his MS school kept telling me that he didn't need a SN school. that his P levels were too high, that he wouldn't qualify.

when they tested his P levels he was a perfect candidate for SN.
He has been in SN for the past 2 years now and he is a totally different child.

for him SN was the answer. for others it may not be.

starlight- its a shame there are not more schools for children like ours (HFA), all the sn schools here are for mld of sld's, we tried to get dd2 a place but was refussed as she has no learning difficulties (hi IQ), it doesn't seem to count that she has severe sensory issues and severe speach delay , even though she's doing ok and is happy in ms i dont think it will last forever (she's only 5) and then where can she go? its either ms or home schooling which is not going to help her social skills (ms has deffently helped her social skills although they are still years behind). We don't have any ASD units near us , all we have is a boarding (cambian) school for ASD children but again its for the more severe.

DD did well in MS until her 3rd year (GS, age 6) when she really started to struggle. She has since moved into a unit and is a different child, progressing really fast, social skills have really come on, much happier, more relaxed. However, she is extremely sensory seeking and MS simply couldn't cope with her inability to stay in one place for more than 10 seconds. Now she is learning how to work on her own. She also has a high IQ, but her sensory difficulties and inability to concentrate were holding her back from actually learning anything.

I think you might as well be asking 'how how long is a piece of string really'.

There are just too many variables to consider. SNs covers a vast number of disabilities, disorders, difficulties, issues and problems. Each child, even with the same diagnosis is a completely different case and will present with their own profile of needs and strengths. As well as their SNs, their personality is also something that needs to be considered.

Likewise each school is a unique and different institution, some are brilliant at supporting SNs, some bump along and others fail quite spectactularly.

Again, same thing with teachers. Some may have opted to take the SEN modules when they were studying and make a huge effort to make sure that inclusion is a realistic option for children with SENs, others are well meaning, want inclusion to work, but don't know how or where to start and still others are simply anti-inclusion.

Its such a complex area that I don't think anyone can say that mainstream is either absolutely the right or wrong place for ALL children with SNs.

When inclusion is properly implemented (meaning adjustments and adaptations by the school in order for the child to be fully included in all aspects of school life - not just an expectation of the child that they will integrate themselves) it can work really well and be highly beneficial, not only to the child who has SNs, but also to their peer group, who learn importance lessons about diversity, acceptance, tolerance and understanding. However, even with this perfect scenario, it still wouldn't be right for every child with SNs.

I loved it for my ASD boy for 3 years, but the right LSA and a supportive school were two crucial ingredients.

I really think it depends on a lot of factors and I don't think you can lump all SN together.
Ds dies struggle in MS secondary, however he now has a good team about him and we are all working towards his independance in the NT grown up world. life won't bend around him, so we are there to help him.
SS school or a less inclusive environment just wouldn't work for DS.
There is also the fact that actually his class mates are learning that different isn't deffective, and isn't a bad thing..

Yet a very good friend of mine has a child who has the same dx as ds, but he just wouldn't cope in MS, he needs SS and it would be wrong to put him in MS school.

And btw, the title is a bit off IMO, you would group any ethnic or religious groups the same way.

My son went to an independent special school for AS when he transferred to secondary although he went to a ms primary. We had to go to tribunal to fund his place but it was definitely the right choice for him and he is thriving.

I can understand that for parents who have battled to get a special school placement (esp independent) that all mainstream schools must have been ruled out as unsuitable - I visited all the mainstream secondary schools in our county (and a few in the next county) and none of them could have come close to meeting his needs.

I talk to a lot of parents locally whose children with SN go to local mainstream schools and they often report bullying, punishments due to lack of understanding of their conditions and inconsistency in approach - things that DS doesn't have to worry about in his school. The only parents I've spoken to who are happy with mainstream provision, have their children in primary where I think inclusion is much easier to implement successfully.

We've done the lot, special school full-time until 8, a dual placement for the rest of primary, with a slow phased transition, so he started at 1 day, main-stream and 4 days special, then 2/3, 3/2 and when he left was doing 4 days mains-stream and one day special. At secondary my ds is full-time mainstream. We won 2 tribunals and to get and keep my ds in his special school at 5, it was out of county so LEA not happy, despite admitting no suitable primaries in county. He has PD/MLD and word retrieval difficulties, ie. is complex. Benefits of SS is we had high level of SALT, Physio, OT and specialist teacher input in the early years where it is crucial. As his brother and sister started going to local village school, he started to say he wanted to go to school, with them and locally. Our SS suggested a dual placement, the truth is until you try ms, with a son like mine you don't really know. The SS did termly outreach to the ms school and good communication between both schools made it work. Was told by psychologist that works better in small village school and to put him back a year. Found though that if his inclusion in class dropped to below 75% he said he didn't feel a part of the class, was coming out for physio/ literacy and numeracy interventions and therein lies the problem. Inclusion then becomes exclusion.

To early to say if MS secondary is working, certainly can see huge problems as ds now saying doesn't want 1:1 TA support as singles him out. Can see him rebelling against stretch routine as no longer in a class of other kids as in special school also doing physio. TA is stuggling and frankly is clear that SEN team don't have the experience that staff have at SS. Differentiation is non-existent/poor, many schools inclusive in attitude but doesn't pan out at grass roots level. Don't know where we would go if it doesn't work as it appears now that most kids with MLD are educated in mainstream, so SS left are taking kids more profoundly disabled than my ds.

Have met people who believe MS better preparation for life but it's no good if they can't access the curriculum, it badly damages their self-esteem or they go from walking to being in a wheel chair because they don't get enough physio, or their language skills don't develope because they don't get enough SALT. At our SS all the therapists were on site/in the class-room at MS a once a term visit is an apology for a service in my opinion, and training a TA to do their job is just not good enough in my opinion as some TA's can do it and others can't.

Could go on but won't. Agree with us, very much a personal decision, looking at your child and available schools.
Cheers.

DS 3 with ASD is going to ms nursery after Easter but has a place at a special school from september. I have been taking him in for an hour or so each day for the past few weeks to familiarise him with everything. He loves it and the staff are very welcoming but they don't really get him and don't have the experience, he needs to be in the special school at least for a few years. All children are different and what is good for one can be a disaster for others - I think that inclusion is good in theory but needs to be properly resourced in order to work.

depends on the child, the childs needs and the school.
I think its no more appropriate to say sn kids shouldn't be at ms as it is to say all sn kids should go to ss.

For now ds2 is at a great primary where he is happy & thriving with brilliant support I know that won't always be the case & secondary for him will likely be SS but for now he is happy & as a parent that is all i want for my children NT & SN.

It depends on the child. I know that DS1 would be different in a special school, too. Being in a situation with lots of other kids with ASD would be very difficult for him, too, because even though he's beyond quirky, only his own quirks are acceptable to him.

Both the boys are in a small, very caring mainstream school, but if the school was any different, I'd want specialist provision for DS2.

Where else would DC, like my DS2 with HF ASD, go? He has an average to high IQ and really needs good role models around him. He will have to function in the real world and cope with what NT people think of him. He's not going to learn that in a SS. He's not going to have individual care all his life, his needs aren't that severe. Also, the NT world needs to see people like my DS as just a variation of normality and they won't learn that if all SN children are hidden away from them. Yes, secondary might be hard, there might be bullying, but that's life, to a certain extent. I'll fight tooth and nail for him and make sure he's happy wherever possible, but I won't be there forever.

Some children just can't cope in MS and some MS schools can't cope with some children with SEN, obviously, but a blanket policy of saying all SN children should go to SS or all should go to MS definitely isn't right.

MS schools need to be better at being truly inclusive and there should always be an option of a SS if that is the most appropriate setting, but pigs will fly before that happens everywhere.

I think thats a generalisation, not all children with SN are the same, like others have said, some will thrive in mainstream some not and need more specialist intervention that a mainstream can provide. My dd 4 (possible ASD on the less severe end, still waiting a formal dx) is going to a mainstream primary school in September, the school are applying for a statement to provide support at school for her. The main difficulties for dd are social communication and interaction espcially in settings that are unfamiliar to her, we are seeing that she is learning a lot about affective communication from her NT peers and want to keep it that way (she is in a mainstream preschool). DD is using more expressive language and having less outbursts. We are going to see how it goes, but if not we might transfer her to a mainstream school with an SEN department within it. DD is also very bright and intelligent and want her to benefit from having the same academic opportunities as NT children.

Totally agree with you Ellen I could not have put it better myself