Communication impasse - what to do?

[TheQuiet]

Hi, I am new here, so sorry if something is wrong.

DS has Aspergers and has a statement in a mainstream secondary school. I noticed recently that he did not progress since last year in history and is 3 levels behind his class median. Obviously there is a problem with structuring and writing. There is a problem with inferences, a problem with recognising all the various perspectives. We are working on this at home. At school they do not seem to do anything. There is another big problem in my view:
The teacher comments in his book in many instances contain question marks, remarks like "not clear", "confusing". The teacher ignores explanations and analysis provided. All of teacher's suggestions basically restate the original question. This upsets DS. He thinks that he explained everything and answered all those questions, so it is confusing why the teacher asks them again. Why should he go in circles?

I agree. The teacher should communicate with the ASD pupil. This means the teacher should bridge the gap of misunderstanding and give comments which help to progress, stated in the way DS can understand. For the moments it's like saying to a non-verbal child that she should learn to speak first and then he'll talk to her. DS does not fully realise that the comments aren't helpful. He understands what is written but it does not tell him what to do differently and how. How to make the teacher to communicate and teach my DS?

Any advice on how to deal with this? I have a meeting with SENCO where I want to ask for an IEP to cover this, an EdPsych visit and maybe the SALT and Specialist teacher to work with the history teacher on regular basis to help the communication problem. They are going to kick and scream.

Could you comment, share any experiences?
Are we the only ones to struggle with history?
Any specialists out there?

Hi I don't know what to suggest as my child is only 4 and I teach but children a lot younger. Maybe the teacher doesn't realise what she is doing (we're not trained in sen and support usually comes in the behaviour debt not day to day things like marking) your senco should be helping her more.

Just go in and make them aware

Hi I don't know what to suggest as my child is only 4 and I teach but children a lot younger. Maybe the teacher doesn't realise what she is doing (we're not trained in sen and support usually comes in the behaviour debt not day to day things like marking) your senco should be helping her more.

Just go in and make them aware

bump

Thanks hanaka, anyone else? Please.

What support does he get via his statement? Is there anyone there who could help?

It does sound like a lack of AS awareness on the part of the teacher, which is something the inclusion team should be able to address. The ASD teacher attached to ds's school is just about to deliver some ASD awareness training to several staff in the school and are able to offer ongoing support and guidance both in person and over the phone if necessary. Its probably never even occurred to the teacher that she/he might have to phrase things differently. Ds is 8 and in year 4 of primary school and we're just starting to have similar issues with literacy and comprehension.

We don't have a statement - yet, so I apologise if I've misunderstood this, but I thought if your ds is on the SEN register, he should already have an IEP in place, to help support him in any areas in which he struggles or isn't making enough progress.

The only other thing I can think of is perhaps to create some sort of briefing booklet/passport type document that could be given to the teacher concerned, with guidelines on how best to phrase things when marking his work, perhaps with examples of what would and wouldn't work with a brief explanation why.

You sound like you are on top of it though, having arranged a meeting with the SENCO to request support from the EP and SALT. Let them scream - they have a legal responsibility to provide your ds with the support he needs, you aren't asking for anything he shouldn't already be getting.

Yes, moosemama, I think you are right that it is a lack of awareness. However I was told that all teachers were given ASD training but I suppose it was not understood. I myself couldn?t understand ASD at first read! So then I should ask them to do additional awareness training, I suppose. The thing is other teachers pull their weight, with the same training.
The briefing booklet is a good idea, something concrete to ask for. Thanks!

But the bigger question is how to make the teacher do something? I have a feeling he is just unwilling, thinks that the statement is the job for the TA, not for him.
Do I need the EdPsyck or can the Specialist Teacher &SALT solve the problem?

"There is a problem with inferences, a problem with recognising all the various perspectives."
Well I never knew you were meant to infer things with history (hiostory graduate). I knew that when writing an essay, or dissertation you had to state several perspectives and say which ones you agreed with, but inference was something I don't think I ever went for. It was just a case of saying "Professor X in his essay states this. However, further evidence as seen in books y and z prove that THIS is more accurate."
And it depends on what you mean by perspective. If you mean acknowledging that there are multiple viewpoints of, say, the Battle of Bosworth, then that's a matter of research. If you mean that acknowledging all viewpoints have a valid point and should be tolerated, then I'll disagree with that. The only thing you need to do is to give evidence and prove why you disagree with the theories.
As for the teacher, they are not helping by not going into details and explaining matters. I think that you need to be blunt and state clearly that the teacher's role is to guide and this is currently not being achieved. To be blunt this is not strictly an ASD issue, because the problem lies with the teacher's lack of communication.

I recently found out that ds's current teacher has had several children with AS in her class in the past and had ASD awareness training - albeit a long time ago.

I was literally gobsmacked, I would've sworn that ds was her first experience of working with a child who has AS. Some people just don't or can't 'get it'. She's about to have some additional training - let's just say, I'm not holding my breath. I would still ask if there's any further training he can have - you never know.

As for the EP and SALT, in my experience, it really depends on the individuals. We don't have SALT input, but the EP we've worked with is fantastic and very willing to help out in any way she can. That said, I think she is one in a million and we've been exceptionally lucky.

A SALT may well be able to help explain the semantic pragmatic/literal problems, but is unlikely to help with the lack of ability to understand perspectives. Whereas the EP would be able to do the latter but not the former, iyswim. It would be great if you could get them to work together to come up with something, but I think its a long-shot.

We've just completed ds's passport/briefing doc. He did it with his EP, then we made a couple of suggestions and changes and approved it for circulation. Ds was very involved in producing it and will be able to give copies to any teachers etc, that he feels he would like to read it. In addition, all staff that have regular contact with him with have a copy and there will be one kept with the register to inform any supply staff etc.

As you said though, none of it will help if its the teacher's attitude that's at fault and he just doesn't want to do it. The only thing you can do then is become a broken record and keep pushing until something gives. If he really won't shift and its causing a lot of problems, even after the meeting with the SENCO, you may want to raise it with the head of year and/or Head Teacher.

I'm assuming, as its history its things like, understanding what it felt like for someone living through X,Y,Z and how opposing parties felt about the same situatione etc? (I remember having to write a piece on how it felt to be an evacuee for example and another about how a German soldier felt towards British soldiers during the Christmas Day football match - there's no way my ds could do that.) As bullet said, this isn't strictly necessary for history, but if its the way they are covering the curriculum, then the teacher is going to have to take your ds's AS into consideration as well as improving his own communication skills. They are duty bound to make reasonable adjustments for your ds in order for him to access the curriculum.

"I remember having to write a piece on how it felt to be an evacuee for example and another about how a German soldier felt towards British soldiers during the Christmas Day football match"
I would still struggle with it. It would depend on the individual for a start. I might make some sweeping generalisations, but I'd still have no real idea what these individuals were experiencing or thinking. But I do not recall having to do this aspect of perspective. Gathering and collating evidence, remembering dates and events, concluding why I favoured one theory over another, all of these were part and parcel. But stating what it must feel like to be, say, a Cavalier, would be too hard.

I agree bullet, strictly speaking its not necessary to pass a history exam, as you say, it should be about researching/finding out the facts, in some instances perhaps forming your own opinion and providing evidence to back up your theory - but if the teacher expects it as part of the classwork, then I can really see how it would be a problem for a child with AS.

I think some teachers feel it helps give the children a better understanding of the realities of what it might have been like to live through some of the major historical events and that's why they sometimes get them to do this sort of thing.

My ds loves history, gathering and hoarding facts etc and to be honest, it hadn't crossed my mind that he would come up against this sort of problem during history lessons - literacy yes, but history - no. Its only after reading the OP and thinking back to my own secondary history lessons that I've realised we actually did have to try and understand the feelings and emotions of others when studying history. Ds particularly loves classical history (like his father as that's what he did his degree in) and iirc, we did a lot more of this sort of thing in secondary school classics lessons than we did in modern history - am now thinking it might be prudent to steer him away from studying classics if that's still the case.

Ideally, if a child with AS simply can't do it, then he should be excused from completing this type of exercise, but then there would be the problem of what he would do if that's what the rest of the class are doing during a lesson (just thinking about what excuse the teacher might come up with).

It absolutely shouldn't be affecting his achievement/progression in the subject though. As long as he knows his facts, has done the research and can back up his theories, his inability to see/feel things from another person's perspective shouldn't be relevant.

my Ds had to do that virtually impossible he cant understand his own feelings yet let alone put himself in the shoes of another human being ,this is proof they just dont get it do they, they have to do this in a lot of areas of the curriculum too my older ds was a few months ago doing romeo and juliet and had to do the same thing he found it easy because hes NT but i know my DS with asd theres not chance in a million years hed ever even be able to get through the book let alone write a 5 page essay on how certain characters felt ect ect this is where they really need to do perhaps much more teacher training in this area as they should teach the lesson in a way so as even the Dc with sen can all get it,usually in a more visual way would help and then let some type not write or oral instead whatever mediums best and maybe for children with sen they could do it in a different way ie as in comprehension where instead of the whole book they read a passage and then just circle the right answerthis would make it a lot more accessable surely not to all but deffinately to more Dc with sen

Amazingly, my ds1 already likes Shakespeare, albeit the versions that are adapted for younger readers - rather than the Elizabethan language.

That said, he mainly likes all the sword fights and insults. He also told me that Romeo was stupid. Apparently, there was absolutely no point in killing himself just because Juliet was already dead and if he hadn't, then he'd have found out she was still alive anyway. Ahem! Yes quite ds1 - that's kind of the whole point and why its a tragedy. As expected, all the emotive and romantic stuff pretty much passed him by. I am so not looking forward to secondary school literacy.

Well, I am relieved that it is not just me who doesn't understand their methods . I thought teaching is so advanced now that I can't make sense of it LOl. They use the book that is full of pictures and questions like "how do you think they felt?" or "Why did they do that?" or even better "Who do you think produced this source and why?". The thing is the makers of this book built a lot of their own assumptions into it. If you show out of context the photo of people climbing and celebrating on the Berlin wall in 1989, many people would see an example of antisocial behaviour and damage to property. It is not in the pictures; it is in all other facts and things you need to know. I suppose they would argue they use this book because pictures are good for ASD.

They gave DS a couple of sentences and a picture and said to evaluate this sources and to write an essay as ?Why did William win the Battle of Hastings, was it luck, enemies mistakes or his own skill??. DS stares at the "sources" and says to me that it is impossible to tell, not enough information. In addition he has no clue how to weigh the three alternatives. I got DS to look at other books and Britannica and to find out other facts and what historians say. The school has written to me that it is not about using many facts (a dig on ASD) but in "the ability to use and correctly analyse the information given". They also say that other books are not allowed as he did not read them ~@#&#@.

I guess I would need the EP and ST and SALT all work together and to review their teaching practices and then make reasonable adjustments.

I fear this will end up in tribunal again. I am fed up with tribunals. Sorry for the rant, I am done

your fine TheQiet thats what MN is here for i guess does sound like time for change for you again as he has to be able to access the curriculum and if they certainly need to come up with something better than just these books, i cant see anything wrong in looking for inspiration in other books as long as the info is correct?!!if his analytic skills arent good enough tuff titties as i say lol sorry but they pee me off , hes obviously doing his best with what they have given himand they dont want you for some strange reason to find your own, I guess you could check with them what web sites they use as this is a good way your ds might like to find infothey must use a particular one, sounds like they are being very unhelpful and finicky hope you get them sorted GO GIRL

Rant away TheQuiet, that's what we're here for.

I think I would struggle to write a whole essay based on a couple of sentences and a picture. I am totally that they don't want them to do further research as well. I thought it would be something they'd encourage.

I suppose they want him to just look at the evidence they've given him, come up with his own theory and then state his reasons for thinking as he does. I'd think that that question is very open to bias/slant depending on the source material provided and maybe that's what they were trying to get at?

Could it possibly be a way of preparing them for exam questions do you think? I suppose in examps they only have the evidence they've been presented with and can't do any additional research.

My ds would probably be able to look at the sources they've provided and make up his mind what he thinks the answer to the question is, but would then be unable to back it up or tell them why he came to that conclusion. He would basically make a snap decision based on first impressions and based on his ADOS test that would be way off the mark.

He's not even able to explain why something he did himself turned out a certain way, so to expect him to be able to explain why a situation involving someone else ended the way way it did would definitely be beyond him.

I found this book on Amazon that is supposed to suggest inclusion strategies and deals with different academic topics, including history. I haven't read it myself though, so don't know how useful it would be. Might be worth seeing if your local library can get it for you?

You are right, moosemama, they said to me that this to train them for exams. I don't mind training for exams as such. I think ASD children need a lot of coaching and practice to not to fall to pieces on exam day. However, if he can't learn via this method, there couldn't be any benefit for the exam. First things first.
I wonder whether this has anything to do with the ASD learning style, this bias to facts which is necessary to form an opinion and to construct an argument. They say ASD brain is wired differently. Maybe the wiring must go via facts, and only then can they speculate about sources' biases and intentions and how reliable they are. What do you think?

I still think it's nonsense that a year 7 kid can have an opinion on the trustworthiness of 11 century sources based on a few lines. Those children who succeed have their good parents working on it at the same website we looked at . I am just finding excuses; of course they did it themselves.
DS does not remember much of what was said in class. I am sure other children get enough cues from the teacher.
We will prevail!

Thanks moosemama, I ordered the book - amunition for my meeting.

I also found this on Teachernet :[http://www.teachernet.gov.uk/wholeschool/sen/teacherlearningassistant/ASDKS34/] Sttrategies for eccessing the curriculum]. I read parts related to history. I am not sure to what extent it's helpful - it describes the symptoms well but does not tell much in a way of specific strategies.

Sorry, now the link works: ASD children- Strategies for accessing the curriculum

Its difficult. I'm still learning and verrry slowly at the moment, but going on my ds, I'd say he just isn't able to speculate about other people's intentions or biases, as that would require some understanding of their thought processes and emotions etc.

Of course he often does make up his mind what someone else's intentions were in any given situation - but 99.9% of the time he gets it wrong eg thinking he's being bullied when someone either accidentally bumps into him or makes a joke. When he's given pictorial information, he pretty much fails to read the situation every single time. In fact it was shocking how bad he was at this during his assessment.

My ds also doesn't seem to remember a lot of whats's said in class. However, from working with an EP for a couple of months, it became apparent that he can remember what was said, he just can't relate it back to me/someone else - either verbally or in writing, so that can cause big probems with homework. We pretty much have to start from scratch with the topic every time we do any homework. Of course the problem there is that I'm not always aware of exactly how his teacher has taught or explained something and sometimes end up confusing him even more.

Its an absolute minefield and often I feel like its a case of 'damned if I do/damned if I don't'.

To be honest, I think this is where 1-1 classroom support is required for many children with ASD. Obviously the teacher can't stop, think and explain every single thing they teach in an ASD friendly way. They can do their best, but with the best will in the world, its not realistic or sustainable. With 1-1 support their LSA can help bridge the gap and act as a mediator between pupil and teacher to explain why the pupil may not be able to complete a certain piece of work. Its precisely this sort of situation that's made me realise that I need to push, not only for a statement, but also for as many hours of 1-1 support as we can shoehorn out of the LEA. Not looking forward to the fight though - it won't be pretty.

Its also worth considering, that if he can't do it in class or at home, he won't be able to do it in an exam. So its worth investigating what concessions could be made for exams in the future. (disclaimer: I have no clue if there are any, except to say my ds will be allowed extra time due to his WISC IV IQ test showing he has processing delays which mean he is capable of being highly successful academically, but needs longer to process things and get them down on paper. In our case it was the EP that identified this problem and its relevance in exam situations.)

Cross posted - off to read your link now.

TheQuiet, that's a brilliant link.

Just had a quick glance - but thought the following quote kind of goes halfway towards explaining where the problem lies and that's just the first page of the history section:

?History is made by people. When you understand people you can live
a full life.? (Charles Miller Smith)

History at Key Stages 3 and 4 is an exciting opportunity for pupils with asd. Learning about
significant individuals and events in the history of Britain, Europe and the World should present
little difficulty at a factual level. However difficulties may be encountered where pupils are
expected to make connections, comparisons, evaluations and analyse. Interpreting events in
different ways will need to be taught explicitly and directly rather than relying upon the pupils
intuitively grasping an abstract (to him) concept. The emphasis on ICT opportunities should be
grasped for pupils with asd particularly where group work is required.

It's pretty much what we've been saying today.

This, from page 21 is also good:

Pupils with asd have difficulties in understanding how others feel or think. This is often described
as a failure to have a theory of mind and it can make it very difficult to look at history from other
people?s perspectives. It needs to be recognised that this is a central difficulty in asd. It may be
useful to set up a discussion on an historical topic that the pupil is able to relate to and then use
other pupils to demonstrate different perspectives, e.g. Alan - ?I think this ....? Brian - ?I disagree,
I think it is .....? Then help the pupils with asd to identify the different views. ?What does Alan
think??, ?What does Brian think??, ?What do you think??.

I think that this falls down in not considering that many children with ASD will be unable to 'take home' the salient points of the discussion though. For it to work, the teacher would need to provide him/her with some notes on the discussion. Alternatively, perhaps using a dictaphone to record and replay the discussion might be an option?

Moosemama, you seem to be well advanced with your DS. In year 4 we were at the stage where problems at school were down to "lack of discipline" IYNWIM :)

I would certainly advise to get a statement before the transfer to secondary school. I can't imagine how DS would cope in secondary without 1:1.
However, we only got the statement this summer. So he completed primary school in SA+, but without any specialists, except EP twice a year. The school did much more than they were required, so informally he had a 50% support of some sort. But this is not ideal. If I could change the past, I would get the statement in year 5 so they would help on social skills. The gap becames big in years 5 and especially 6.

I think the good practice is to give 1:1 roughly full time. In practice however, in our region this means 15 hours per week. The school week is 25 hours. The school is required to provide 5 hours out of their resources (like at SA+), so basically we have 20 hours per week. He does'n get TA for PE, musicYou seem to be well advanced with your DS. In year 4 we were at the stage where problems at school were down to "lack of discipline" IYNWIM :)

I would certainly advise to get a statement before the transfer to secondary school. I can't imagine how DS would cope in secondary without 1:1.
However, we only got the statement this summer. So he completed primary school in SA+, but without any specialists, except EP twice a year. The school did much more than they were required, so informally he had a 50% support of some sort. But this is not ideal. If I could change the past, I would get the statement in year 5 so they would help on social skills. The gap becomes big in years 5 and especially 6.

I think the good practice is to give 1:1 roughly full time. In practice however, in our region this means 15 hours per week. The school week is 25 hours. The school is required to provide 5 hours out of their resources (like at SA+), so basically we have 20 hours per week. He doesn?t get TA for PE, music, and RE. It's floating with other disciplines. We also get SALT, Specialist Teacher advice, OT. In addition to those resources, I included in the statement a number of objectives and skills that need to be developed - social skills, obviously, but also study skills, organisation, independence, sensory processing and self-management, self esteem etc.

The problem I have is that the school wants the specialists to work on those skills in weekly sessions. Kind of in the bubble outside of everyday school concerns. I say it must be integrated in every lesson. The teachers should be queuing up to the ST for advice. ... You might say that I don't lack ambition lol

Cross posted.

"...Many children with ASD will be unable to 'take home' the salient points of the discussion " - this is exactly the problem. Dictaphone and good notes by the TA should help this.

Regarding IT, I found this www.activehistory.co.uk/
I don't know how good - it's paid subscription

We are really have a productive discussion, we are getting somewhere! Great minds, MN

having, awful typing

We pretty much knew right from reception year that there was a problem with ds, but teachers kept saying he was fine yadda yadda yadda! You know the drill.

He attends a primary, rather than a separate infant and junior, but still went into total freefall on transition to juniors in year 3. Not helped by a teacher that was off sick for weeks and then months of the year and a couple of particulary bad bullying incidents.

That's when I totally lost it and went all Mummy Lion . I went to the GP and got him referred straight to a Paed, who we saw within 6 weeks and said AS pretty much straight away. We had to wait for a formal multi-disciplinary assessment to confirm it though. We were told it would be an 18 month wait, but when things got worse at the beginning of year 4 I upped my game and brought in the inclusion team and Ed Psychs myself, as the school was being worse than useless. Fortunately, all their involvement and the resultant reports etc meant he could be fast-tracked via the new waiting-list reduction initiative and he was dx on 17 January this year, 12 months almost to the day since we saw the Paed.

He has been working with our lovely EP on his anxiety since last October, but its their last session together this Wednesday (no more funded hours available ). Fortunately, we have a really good Specialist ASD Inclusion Team, so his allocated ASD Inclusion Teacher will pick up where the EP left off. They are going to work 1-1 for an hour a week, primarily on social skills and building a circle of friends this year, in the hope of forming a support network that will see him through to at least transition.

I have just scared the pants off myself reading the prospectus for our local secondary school. They got Academy status in September - as did our second choice. We are now not sure how he stands on getting in, despite attending a linked primary school and living well within the catchment area. Local rumour has it that they'll do anything they can to wriggle out of taking SEN pupils, but if you can get them in, once there they are well supported. Am a bit worried that going for a statement might actually make his chances of getting in worse.

The head of the inclusion team is lovely and very open, so my next job is to ask her some very direct questions about this school and what our best move would be.

No messing about any more - knowlege is power and all that. I spend much of my spare time reading about ASD and education - a lot like many of the Mums on here really.

Do you have a copy of the SEN Code of Practice? Its well worth downloading. You don't even need to quote it half the time, just make sure they see it in your folder when you attend meetings and have a few highlighted sections and stickies on it as well. Seriously though, it would help you to get it across that its their responsibility to enable your ds to access the curriculum. If you haven't got a copy you can pick up a link to it off this thread. Its a weighty tome, but worth its weight in gold.

We have a great dictaphone by the way, bought it off amazon to record the summing up of ds's assessment. It was pricier than some of the others, but you can just plug it into your computer and it downloads the recording as an mp3 - brilliant stuff!

We really need a chocolate emoticon - I have some home made red velvet or mudcake and ganache cupcakes left over from dh's 40th on Saturday that'd go great with that .

Yes, chocolate and