Communication impasse - what to do?

[TheQuiet]

Hi, I am new here, so sorry if something is wrong.

DS has Aspergers and has a statement in a mainstream secondary school. I noticed recently that he did not progress since last year in history and is 3 levels behind his class median. Obviously there is a problem with structuring and writing. There is a problem with inferences, a problem with recognising all the various perspectives. We are working on this at home. At school they do not seem to do anything. There is another big problem in my view:
The teacher comments in his book in many instances contain question marks, remarks like "not clear", "confusing". The teacher ignores explanations and analysis provided. All of teacher's suggestions basically restate the original question. This upsets DS. He thinks that he explained everything and answered all those questions, so it is confusing why the teacher asks them again. Why should he go in circles?

I agree. The teacher should communicate with the ASD pupil. This means the teacher should bridge the gap of misunderstanding and give comments which help to progress, stated in the way DS can understand. For the moments it's like saying to a non-verbal child that she should learn to speak first and then he'll talk to her. DS does not fully realise that the comments aren't helpful. He understands what is written but it does not tell him what to do differently and how. How to make the teacher to communicate and teach my DS?

Any advice on how to deal with this? I have a meeting with SENCO where I want to ask for an IEP to cover this, an EdPsych visit and maybe the SALT and Specialist teacher to work with the history teacher on regular basis to help the communication problem. They are going to kick and scream.

Could you comment, share any experiences?
Are we the only ones to struggle with history?
Any specialists out there?

"They gave DS a couple of sentences and a picture and said to evaluate this sources and to write an essay as ?Why did William win the Battle of Hastings, was it luck, enemies mistakes or his own skill??. DS stares at the "sources" and says to me that it is impossible to tell, not enough information. In addition he has no clue how to weigh the three alternatives. I got DS to look at other books and Britannica and to find out other facts and what historians say. The school has written to me that it is not about using many facts (a dig on ASD) but in "the ability to use and correctly analyse the information given". They also say that other books are not allowed as he did not read them ~@#&#@."

I highly disagree with the teachers here. If the information your ds is given is insufficient (and a couple of sentences and a picture certainly does not sound sufficient) then he is showing good research skills by finding out further information. There may be times when he is given a single document and asked questions, for example in an exam, but as a general rule it is perfectly acceptable to research further material. In fact, it is desirable, since by doing that he can then see the wider range of viewpoints.
If the question is worded like: "What do these sentences tell you about William's strategies?" or "What do these sentences reveal about Harold's strategies?" then (dependant on the actual sentence of course) they could be answered. But a wide ranging set of questions such as is quoted above, needs a wider range of research. Moreover, by doing this increased research the person learns to use their own judgement, to learn to use critical and analytical skills and to form their own conclusions on things.

"But a wide ranging set of questions such as is quoted above, needs a wider range of research. Moreover, by doing this increased research the person learns to use their own judgement, to learn to use critical and analytical skills and to form their own conclusions on things".

Bullet is spot on . For this reason I encourage DS to do this anyway. Maybe he won't get decent grades in history but at least he'll grow up being able to analyse, form an opinion and make decisions for himself.

As they train for exams, what they really want is an ability to argue any bu%&*# convincigly. It is not necessary to believe your conclusion, just to put an analysis that looks good on paper. The art of selling the dead cat in a bag.

i still find it amazing they dont want him to do his own research i totally agree with you TheQuiet my DS and DD (NT)school encourange it seems weird they dont

Hi

I don't have a lot of time to read and respond right now but wanted to share one thing I thought might be something you might need to know.

I am employed by a secondary school through the NHS to provide training and support to their students. Part of this role is specific to students with AS/ASC. Part is "generic" e.g. to improve quality of speaking and listening for all students with speech and language issues.

As part of my role, I recently gave training to a self-selected group of teachers. These were motivated, dynamic teachers who chose to stay for a twilight session (after school) voluntarily to find out more about speech, language and communication in the classroom (e.g. not the lazy sods!).

As a starter activity, I broke them into groups and asked them to consider one aspect of speech, language and communication -
Speech
Understanding of Language
Spoken Language
Social Skills/Communication and Interaction
Specifically, I asked them to define it and to say how it would have an effect on:

• learning and understanding information IN class
• remembering that information later
• their ability to read more about the topic/write about the topic
• how all of this would make them feel about themselves as learners

I am sad to say that among this bright group of teachers, there was a fundamental and pervasive lack of understanding of all of these aspects, with some groups (noticeably the understanding group) simply not able to suggest even ONE way that a student who had difficulty understanding language would struggle with learning.

They just didn't know ANYTHING about these aspects of language. Some of them asked about very high level things like metacognition etc, but it was clear that their understanding of these terms was related to students with normal speech, language and communication development (as the curriculum is written with these students in mind).

So.. my first answer is simply that they probably don't get it. Or see the issues as you do. Or know what to do about it.

You sound like you DO know what he needs, so I guess I would take a piece of work and simplify it/add structures that will support him to achieve and ask if you can talk this through with someone who could give him additional support.

I hope I'll return to this later in the week if I'm not snowed under with RL work!

"I am sad to say that among this bright group of teachers, there was a fundamental and pervasive lack of understanding of all of these aspects, with some groups (noticeably the understanding group) simply not able to suggest even ONE way that a student who had difficulty understanding language would struggle with learning."

I really really wish you were joking, but I know you're not .

Can anyone comment on how to gain teacher's cooperation?
It's true that I have an idea what to do and I have a meeting arranged to talk about this.

The response I already heard 4 times goes along the lines "this is how we do things around here, it works, they all turn out OK by year 10, you should appreciate the efforts we do for DS, the extraordinary dedication...". I do really appreciate everything the do and they are a good school. But on this issue - which is very intricate, how to make them to go a few steps further?

Should I cry, smile, bang on the table, agitate the code of practice, flatter them?

You state that your ds is not the same as the other pupils (or most of the other pupils). That he has significant difficulties in certain areas and that unless things are explained and set out in a way that he can comprehend, then it will impact upon his ability to make use of the knowledge that he does have.

I would prepare examples of work e.g. your differentiation and show the difference in his response - e.g. give him half an hour to attempt an activity using their terms/directions and instructions and then then the same amount of time to do a version you have adapted and in the meeting, show the difference in what he can achieve in real terms so that they can "see" it. Sometimes explaining doesn't work so well because it's like trying to explain physics to an arts grad: it's just so far out of their realm of thinking that they can hear the words but they don't process them. If you show them the problem they will probably understand better. This is how I tend to work in schools so that they can see that it's not just a load of waffle, it actually makes a real difference to what the student can achieve (in this case your son). Then they see how it relates to what they do iyswim. In my case (as a non-parent but also not a teacher, which can create barriers), I am always very humble about it and show them and then explain as I do so, and recognising the challenges they would have in differentiating as I can (when it is something frequent for me that I am very comfortable with doing and a way of thinking that is ingrained in me vs new/a slog/confusing for them). This usually works well enough.

Is he going to have support to access exams? A scribe etc?

Can you take someone to the meeting with you? Parent Partnership perhaps? They might be better placed to stand their ground and/or argue that you are as they aren't so close and emotionally invested. I'm always painfully aware that I need to maintain a working relationship with them and think that sometimes means I back down rather than kicking up a stink, when kicking up a stink would probably be the right thing to do.

I would definitely point out that 'how they do things around here' is obviously not working for your ds and while you really appreciate all their support to date, under the SENCOP they have a legal requirement to make reasonable adjustments in order for him to be able to access the curriculum effectively. You aren't asking for anything over and above what they are duty bound to provide and its not acceptable for them to say we already do x, y and z for your ds so we don't need to do anything over and above that.

Saying they all turn out OK by year 10 is a cop out and suggests they are thinking of their pupils as a herd, rather than individuals. They have never taught your ds before, so they can't possibly know that things will just sort themselves out by year 10. They should be being proactive in making sure that happens by giving him the support he needs to make it happen.

In the first instance, I tend to use a fair bit of flattery and appreciation, tell them how much I appreciate all their work and support and how I understand how difficult it must be for them yadda, yadda. Then smile, quote SENCOP and point out that while really do appreciate how hard they are trying, what they are doing just isn't working for ds, so we need to come at the problem from another angle and work together to find a solution. Then if nothing changes I start with the table banging and getting angry, which usually ends up with me crying at some point. I used to get very cross with myself and embarrassed about crying, but to be honest I actually think it has helped them to stop and think that I am after all just a Mum trying to do the best for her child. I have even said that to them in the past - that if I don't stand up for him and make sure he has all the help and support he needs to succeed, then I have failed in my role as his parent.

I also tend to write up my own meeting notes and send them a copy and/or confirm anything we've agreed in a letter, so that I have a record of everything. [slightly paranoid emoticon]

Does he have an IEP? Sorry if you've already told me, am very tired today. If not, he should have and this particular issue should be on it. Then they would have to work with you to identify the root of the problem, come up with some strategies to address it, implement the strategies and then monitor their success and adjust/change them if there's little or no progress.

Its totally unnacceptable for them to say 'this is how we do things around here', fundametally that means their attitude is that they don't care if it doesn't work for certain individuals, as long as it works for the majority of pupils - have they never heard of Every Child Matters fgs!

Thank you all for your excellent suggestions. I'm making note of all and feeling like I am ready for the next phase of my partnership with the school :).

So the tactics are "all of the above and more". Moosemama, thanks for putting it in such an excellent order. Parent Partnership are coming with me, hopefully they'll cover the "unpleasant" things.

Working9 : DS gets a scribe and +25% time, probably a separate room. I think this is standard. Not helpful if he wouldn't know what to do.

The scribe should be working with him as normal practice in every day lessons. This is a requirement of maintaining the access arrangement.

How we operate it in our unit is that we integrate teaching "what they need to do" with using the scribe. This takes different forms for different students but in terms of writing extended pieces of work like you describe we use the following structure:

POWER
Plan
Organise
Write
Edit
Rewrite

Plan your work - when initially working with a scribe (e.g. as support vs in true scribing conditions), this would involve highlighting the key words and (in exam prep) talking through the question and thinking about what it is asking. If a student got stuck here, it would be differentiated to give them an idea using whatever strategies have been determined to be helpful for that particular student e.g. for "Why did William win the Battle of Hastings, was it luck, enemies mistakes or his own skill?" a common one that kids find helpful is modelling via a "Think Aloud" strategy to target any issues they are having difficulties with e.g. for some higher functioning students it might be something like: "If I had to answer this question, I would highlight all the key words. The key words are etc etc. I might get a bit stuck here because it sounds like they are asking me to choose whether it was luck, enemies, mistakes or his own skill. I think it was all of these things and there might even be other things. So it would help me to think about what kind of work I am being asked to do and see if this gives me any clues about what I need to plan. It's an essay, so the teacher wants me to write at least (x) pages. I will need to write lots of paragraphs. Logically, I can't simply say: "William won the Battle of Hastings because of all of those things" and leave it at that. I need to write a number of paragraphs. Teachers usually like you to write about all the key words when you write an essay. I am going to start by thinking about luck... etc etc".

This sounds more wordy than it would be in a conversation, of course. In the early stages of getting students to work with a scribe we would model how to break down the question and give task supports where appropriate e.g. tables to gather information for each key word - "Did William win the Battle of Hastings because of luck?" with evidence for and against. We would then work on shaping this into a paragraph and work systematically through the essay points as, in the early stages, it's about teaching the strategy of writing a paragraph for each key word.

We teach a lot of the expectations of the exam as a "social rule" which is just one of those boring moments that you have to do even if it doesn't make sense to you. This is in the context of an overarching social thinking curriculum (www.socialthinking.com).

Organise - Get your notes together - highlight the information you are going to use/reduce and simplify your notes

Write - write a rough draft (independently). In a scribing situation, this means speak your work. We work hard on ensuring that students associate "write" and other words meaning write (e.g. record) with the scribing process as often in exams students will fail to ask for a scribe to do their work because of interpreting the exam question literally.

Edit - in the early stages, this is (basically) talk over the draft with your support and see how you're going, have you got the information you need. Depending on the piece of work we sometimes use checklists etc here

Rewrite - write independently

Students need to be working with scribes who provide support for them in lessons and it helps if all support use similar strategies. This process is quite involved as you can imagine but we have had good results - a student with severe language disorder who came to our school disapplied from English at Key Stage 2 SATs got a C in a higher level GCSE last year, a number of students got B's etc. While many higher ability students do well in non-languagey subjects as you can imagine, literacy based subjects like English and History are harder so it does take time. Although I am doing some work on Business BTEC at the moment and finding that it is the hardest so far as it has a huge emphasis on communication and assuming roles e.g. thinking from the perspective of an employer, then an employee etc. And very wordy to boot.

Working9, does anyone advise you, devises those strategies, or is it all your own initiative?

What is the role of the teacher? Do they differentiate, apply agreed strategies?

Whose job responsibility is it that it works? Is it you, or the teacher, or SENCO?
I am trying to understand.

That's a complicated thing to answer. Models of working in secondary are developing at the moment because traditionally, SLTs haven't worked there in this country.

We try to involve teachers by getting them to give us a programme of work in advance. We know the students best so we devise the strategies and then advise the teachers on what the students need. They will suggest a differentiation but often this amounts to "oh they can't do that, leave that out" as they don't have anything else to throw at it. So we have to differentiate (unit co-ordinator who is HLTA and I). However, as we are not teachers, this is a circuitous route as we have to differentiate, take it to them to check it meets their objective, then make alterations and bring it back again.

The SENCo tends to take a more managerial role and doesn't really get involved in one setting.. in another they co-ordinate and get plans for me and we work together on groups etc.

I know how I work is very similar to what specialist advisory teachers for SLCN do in other areas.. but we don't have a team like that, so I have to take it on. I have met colleagues from other areas who are in the opposite position.

Where's the class teacher in all of this? Bloody good question! In my new role, I am trying to address the fact that what differentiation "looks like" in practice in many classrooms is a student with an adapted worksheet sitting with a support with limited subject knowledge at a table, locked out of learning within the supposedly "inclusive" classroom. It's not all bleak - I've seen some really good teaching too, but it's harder when you are talking about a high achieving student as often the teacher doesn't see what they need in a way they might with a lower ability student.

Teachers don't do it to exclude.. they just don't know where to begin so they find differentiated sheets for their programme of work online and hand that over to support staff to carry out. Support staff frequently have limited training or support in how to get that information across so they learn over time by a process of trial and error.

It's not good enough but in the new school I am currently working in (still also in my old one), there is huge enthusiasm and commitment to change - it's really not a case that they want to shirk their responsibilities, they just don't know what they're doing with students with specific needs smetimes. They have no real training in looking at the tasks they give in this way so the good ones have just picked it up by osmosis and even they need support when it comes to the subtleties you describe.

Some are keenly involved in joint working - I suggest a change/strategy for a student or how to differentiate something, they say yes but I need them to know x too how can we work on that, we come to an arrangement. This is when we have optimal outcomes. Some don't want to know and expect we will do it for them and see the students with SEN as "our" students .

I am working HARD to get teachers who don't care to take responsibility. I have said all sorts of stern things about the Disability Discrimination Act and I spend a lot of time taking about how every teacher is a teacher of special needs and how it is their role etc. But in the meantime I'm not going to let my students flounder which sometimes means I do reinforce their bad behaviour... It means I have a very bizarre role because I can only adjust language and task demands and work on metacognitive stuff but I am not doing as effective a job as I feel my students need because I can't transmit the subtleties of the curriculum as I don't have the content knowledge. This is something I have had to argue with some staff who just don't understand the difference between being able to adjust the task structure and simplify language and actually TEACH because you know the ins and outs of the subject.

This is in a setting with a specialist resource. It can be much, much worse in some settings without these resources as they don't have the experience either. This is not true of all, of course, but it does sound as if your son's school believe that they are doing what's right because they have a fundamental lack of understanding of the issues because of their poor knowledge and experience of these issues.

I hope this isn't too depressing but I wanted to give you and idea of what it's like from the inside.

I think most teachers - the overwhelming majority - really want the best for the kids but they just feel lost and panic if they think that what you're asking them to do is going to add to their already heaving workload. They are asked to do a lot. In an inclusive classroom, they may have 7, 8 even 15 students who learn in different ways and all sorts of behavioural issues etc to deal with.

Interestingly, as services are squeezed, I will be doing less of this work I think.. hours have been reduced from half a whole time job to just one day. I only know how to do all this because I learned it with a small group of students that I worked with intensively - many SLTs would really struggle to do the work I do, I have been very privileged. It is always about trial and error and knowing the student and a heap of different stategies and problem solving "in the moment" though. I have huge sympathy for support staff as I have done that work - when I started my job a few years ago I would find myself sitting with a student in a mainstream class trying to "interpret" the teacher talk and get it across to the student and finding I didn't know where to begin to simplify it. It's easy to find fault but harder to do better. My next step is going to be parallel work with teachers in class (where they deliver the content and I provide vocabulary and task structure support/comprehension monitoring) and I am sure I will then learn more about the challenges they face in front of a whole class. It's an exciting field to work in but there is little consensus yet about what works best, it's an unexplored frontier in many respects. We are trying our best, though!

Thanks, Working9, this is an excellent posting.

I would really like to express my admiration for you. It's the enthusiasm and dedication of people like you is the rock of the education of SN children like mine!

Our SENCO is actually a history teacher, i will try and have a word tomorrow and get back to you. ;)

Our SENCO is actually a history teacher, i will try and have a word tomorrow and get back to you. :)