If ABA was free, would you do it for a 3 year old?

[missworld2010]

Or, hypothetically speaking, if you had been given enough money to cover the cost of doing it for a year, would you? Or anything else?

Not sure I've read enough about it, but am worried that we're not doing it, and that every day is a wasted one with very little intervention. Our DD wil be 4 in June and has just started a mainstream nursery where first few days have gone very well, but I can already see the behaviour sliding and am v concerned for the future...

:(

ABA isn't a 'thing'. It's a science. You can't say that it doesn't work for all children because it can't not do because of the way that it works.

Basically, it is an assessment of what a child can do, and then using whatever resources you have (the best ones being the child's motivation and interests) to 'hook' new skills onto in a systematic and logistical way so that basic skills are learned before more advanced ones.

The premise that underpins it is that you know a child needs to learn a skill so you try and teach it (however you like - actually it is more like however the child likes) but you assess the effect of your teaching on an almost constant basis.

You can use any strategy. The point is that the child needs to be engaged. If they are not, you are doing it wrong and need to change what you do. These days you NEVER punish the child for not doing what you want. If they aren't doing it it is because ou are a rubbish and boring teacher and need to change your approach quick smart.

And it's something that any parent can do.

The issue however, is that you would want your child to close the gap between themselves and their peers as quickly as possible which would mean lots of time needed to work with the child.

This is why people get one or two tutors in to do some sessions as well. If you don't your child will still progress, just slower.

You ultimately aim for a balance that suits your child, your family and your finances.

It is easy to get panicked at the beginning but there is no need. You need to get started, but you need to get started right, and at a pace that you can cope with.

SALT has never worked for us (including our very good/experienced private SALT) because the simply don't have the skills to motivate ds to learn. When he didn't make progress it was his fault because he wouldn't engage.

In ABA if he doesn't make progress it is because we aren't teaching well enough, it isn't enough fun, we're just not motivating him. It is always the problem of the teacher never the student. The other thing about ABA (& this is something I drum into the tutors) - children do not learn by failing only by succeeding. We don't give ds the opportunity to fail - there is always someone on hand to prompt, to give the answer. His confidence is growing all the time, he trusts us enough to try the hard stuff & he can tell us when it's hard & he needs help.

as you are aware i dont believe in ABA from my experience of watching other parents do it .
i am yet to be impressed . dont get me wrong if i saw an improvement after giving someone £9000 i would be doing it like a shot!.
i can see parents who are at a loss to help their child seeking its help and they may well see some improvement thats good .
personally for my two i use all my creativity to engage them and it has worked.
ok you ask how well a little example a friend had lots of money to throw at her childs asd so they threw it at aba full team morning noon and night all we heard was ABA ABA ON AND ON.(they had already done the SON rise . gfcf diet , greenspan etc tc )
Well after 6 months one of the parents was sectioned via stress induced psychosis, and the marriage broke up......... the child well no improvement in any areas no more words no social interaction .
There was one area that did grow and that was his behaviours he became much more aggressive violent kicking pinching and the beauty he began to spit in your face !.
these behaviours started during the 6 months of ABA
my own two communicate much more even though they have no speach .
are extremely more affectionate socialable.

no i am not the ABA expert but i am keen observer of what is progress and what is natural development.

i guess my friends spent nine grand on getting a child who now spat in their faces some thing he never did before.
my kids are not badly behavioured and dont know violence .
if i had been given ABA free i would never do it.
i just dont like it my view it does not impress me .

i know those of you doing this will vouch for the benfits you have with it i on the other hand am just sharing my experience of watching others go down this route .
none of us will all agree this augument will go on and on.
what i will say is good luck to those of you whose children are doing well with it credit to you as you may of got the recipe right for your child. i wont knock PROGRESS.

'none of us will all agree this augument will go on and on.'

Really? You see, it's not a faith, it's a science. So it isn't something you need to really have an opinion on. The evidence is there and the research is there too if you put your mind to reading it.

I don't doubt your story about the parents throwing money all over the place trying different things and stressing themselves. In fact I've seen it happen too. And I have also seen some really shoddy ABA practice that quite frankly worries me.

But I have also seen some appalling teaching in schools, and appalling SLT that I would say was barbaric.

Also, I cannot imagine an ABA programme being very successful admidst a marriage breakup and mental health problems. The very least you need is partnership and consistency.

I don't think you can blame the outcome of your friends experience on ABA. Perhaps the people delivering it, although I would dearly love to know who they were.

the marriage and the mental health problems arose due to the stress of the aba. (incidently i had another friend do exactley the same became a zealot of aba she too had a breakdown struggling to pay for it and neglecting her 4 other kids trying to fund it .
regarding opinion and a science errrmmm !!!!i have every right to voice an opinion on ABA
just because i disagree with your thinking does not give you the right to tell me what i can and cannot have an opinion on .
are we clear on this ? each to their own
like i state i am not the expert on ABA but i am an experienced mother who is very well versed with what works for my kids and what does not work.
i am also acutely aware that each of us a different.
i have also seen ABA zealots THAT TOO IS DANGEROUS.
personally a combination of therapies i feel gives the best adavantage to children afterall one shoe does not fit all.
how many children do you have if you do not mind me asking?
fyi i am not impressed by SALTS or psychologists they do not meet my standards i see them as pen pushing blotter jotters and i am yet to meet one with a brain.
once again my opinion

Raven I'm not telling you you can't have an opinion on ABA. Of course you can. But it isn't something you NEED to have an opinion on because all it is is evidenced-based practice, not something you have to believe in iyswim.

I don't doubt your committment and expertise on your children either. I think we're getting some wires crossed.

ABA IS a combination of therapies. ABA is whatever works systematically evaluated as it happens to ensure that it IS working.

I would be interested to know why you think that ABA led to the marriage break-up though. Did they say that?

It's just in my experience ABA brings people closer together in partnership and takes so much stress out of the equation as finally you can see what your child's strengths and weaknesses are and you ALWAYS know the next step they need to learn through concrete evidence, rather than stabbing in the dark coming up with your own (and other people's) ideas and theories and opinions.

I have read that book Lynsey and think it has rather an unfortunate title if I'm honest. It does ABA/VB no favours. It's a good book though.

I'm afraid I don't agree at all with this however:

'You have to hire therapists who come in to your house everyday, manage staff, cover sickness, run the risk that people leave when you have trained them, find a good consultant etc etc, fund the program if your LEA won't.'

It's just not true. You don't have to do any of the above to run an ABA programme and Schramm agrees with me.

You simply need to make sure you have got good quality advice and a committment to whatever you decided to do. And cost doesn't particularly equal quality. In fact I've found in many cases there is an inverse relationship.

I agree with you about the title of Schramm's book. With regards to hiring therapists, I suppose it all depends on indidvudal circumstances. In one of the counties I work in home programs are funded but the parents work, so they hire students who they train to implmement the program. In other places there is no funding and so the parents take on the role of teaching which also works well.

So yes, you don't have to hire anyone, as long as you have good knowledge of the science you will be able to implement it yourself.

Yes I do it. You can usually tell in 3 months if it will work well for a child. This was how we started just for 3 months then evaluate. My son now has functional speech it's still delayed and he finds it hard but he is making good progress. His behaviour is really good he is much more tolerant of others. He has started initiating interactions with other children whereas before he pushed them away. The evidence base is there now there is no question about this. Look at research in USA eg national standards project which evaluated all interventions all the ones with best outcomes included aba. In the best programmes in USA almost every single child will gain speech. It's unusual to have a child who does not speak. higher IQ is known to help outcome. Clearly some children with autism will also have SLD on top and may learn more slowly. Many children in aba schools would be in residential schools if they did not have aba. The evidence for Aba is stronger for young children though. Also my son enjoys it and thrives on it. He had 100% 1:1 in mainstream for a year and learnt less than he learns in a day in aba. If we had not done aba I would have assumed my child has very severe LD as he did not learn anything. I now know he is actually super bright just learns in a very different way. Ring a provider and go see some we are always happy for people to come and watch. It makes much more sense when you actually see it.

I think one of the issues is that you'd have to be fairly affluent either in financial terms or education terms to go down the ABA route. At least understand research and be confident in going againt what Local Authority professionals are recommending.

Because the two usually go hand in hand, I think that most families who do ABA can afford to pay service providers to do the whole thing, and unfortunately I think that many ABA providers price themselves accordingly.

But it doesn't have to be like that. And if you can't afford to pay people you can still run a programme, provided you have someone check your work on ocassion and the odd EP assessment to validate that you are making progress.

'without the financial strains and resources shortages perhaps ABA is just part of good parenting and you would be doing most of it naturally'

That is an excellent point. My ds taught me how to parent him. I parented him the way that got the best results. ABA was simply formalising that, getting better guidance and analyising MY behaviour to ensure I was always doing what worked and remembering learned lessons.

evidence based science fancy world ooh sounds really good
my husband is a scientist and very well versed in reading stats and data etc
he extensively researched ABA for evidence of its effacy ........ it his in his view not proven.
becuase i work on the intuitive level being a medium i approach my children on a deeper level i have too this requires a very strong use of my sixth sense as your aware my two are none verbal. i have very high standards perhaps too high its takes alot to impress me why am i so god damn blunt ? you may ask i tell you why because since i commenced this journey 10 years ago i have had SALTs and ed psychs copy my own teaching methods asking me where i got my ideas .... excuse me.... but are they suppose to be the guys who know it all as far a therapies go bin there, done that. got the tshirt at the end of the day i would say to any family all your need is good use of your own creativity and heeps of love.
books etc eat some digest some and spit the rest out .
From what i have observed of ABA the parts that are of use are basic common sense not rocket science if i had seen progress with the children i know i would glady praised the practice sadly this has not been the case.

Raven Please can you break up your writing a bit to make it more readable?

Oh goodness no, ABA isn't rocket science at all :)

no probs will do .
zzzz your speak good old common sense and i

totally agree with all you say.

my children also do all the stuff you mentioned swimming horsriding, sensory , music therapy etc .

they are very happy.

as i mentioned earlier the ipad has been a fantastic help to our children i feel all children with special needs should be given access to these

You're right about ABA not being rocket science. I don't understand why you are being so defensive about it.

You are clearly a committed parent who has found a way of reaching her children and that is great.

It is important though that the OP and any other readers get factual information about ABA programmes and to suggest that it turns children into robots is daft and need to be corrected.

To suggest it breaks up marriages is also untrue. To suggest it is stressful, well, it can be in some situations I grant you, but some of that stress is brought about BECAUSE it isn't understood by other people.

The efficacy of ABA IS proven, but with all research with each publication of a study come questions and further avenues to explore, in the same way that breastfeeding isn't proven to be good for babies. The evidence is there due to the multitude of studies, but if someone had an agenda to, they would find something about it that isn't yet proven, or at least isn't conclusive. This doesn't however, mean that it is bad for the child.

I don't know when your husband last reviewed the literature and studies on ABA, but there has been a flury of activity over the last 5 years, plus ABA itself has developed quite considerably, mainly to account for the developmental aspects rather than simply based on demonstrated skills, as well as focussing more on language and social interaction.

By correcting your lack of knowledge wrt ABA I am in no way challenging the approach or combination of approaches that you have used with your children by the way.

fact 9 out of ten marriages fail
when a child has disabilites

when i read this me and my husband decided we were not going to become another statistic !.

i am probalbly not the best person to quote stats to as i dont work that way .

i have always written my own script in this life.

bear in mind those writing the data will have a vested interest in what slant it has .
carefully written one could make thaliomide appear safe !
good luck to you with your route and i hope it helps your child.

Yes zzzz you are absolutely right to a good extent, however, the nature or ABA is continue assessment, and, usually, comparison to NOT ABA.

Therefore I have the data that shows pre-ABA ds falling behind his peers more and more, and then post-ABA ds progressing 4 times the rate of his peers and catching them up.

These assessments were done independent of the programme by independent EPs.

The rigidity of an ABA programme is really to do with the discipline of delivery/teaching, not so much the learning in that ds never knows he is learning. He things he is playing or going on trips or cannoeing or whatever.

Raven Yes, a carefully written piece of research can say pretty much whatever the author wants, it is when something stands the test of a variety or research reports with a variety of authors with different agendas coming to the same conclusion that you need to sit up and take notice.

Something like 80% of relationships break up if a child has a disability, but I don't really know what that has to do with ABA.

Hardly any of those families will be doing ABA anyway.