SENCO - and no clue to what might be the issue

[tryingmybest13]

Hello

I am new here and sorry if this is too long?!! Spec. Ed mums advised me to post here. My DS is 7 (today!), is in year 2, and has just returned to school. He has been at this since September. When I got into the classroom his teacher asked me if I could meet with SENCO next week as she and two other staff members have concerns about his behaviour, which they had discussed at a school meeting. She wasn?t specific. At parents evening she said he was fine (this was November) and doing great academically ? he has been assessed at levels 3a and 4b for reading, writing and maths. I have two incidents last term where the teacher said DS was mucking about during carpet time and she was a bit worried he was in ?a dream world? and not paying enough attention to the lessons. He is also a bit slow and dressing/undressing ? though this is improving. In another incident, DS had fallen out with another kid (who is always losing Golden Time) and had shouted at him in the toilets. So I spoke to DS and agreed with the teacher if it happened again she would remove DS?s golden time. However, after speaking with her again last term, she said that was resolved and things were fine.

When DS was two, we tried to put him into nursery but he wouldn?t settle: the key worker said he might be suffering anxiety problems and told us to go to Sure Start. We saw a psychologist, through CAHMS who said she didn't see any major issues but to go on a parenting course. I did, and there was nothing said to me that I wasn?t already doing. When he started school nursery about half through the trainee teacher said she was concerned DS didn?t have a regular friendship group and concerned that he spent too much time reading, rather than playing. The teacher assessed him and said reading ect good, but to go to CAHMS in case anything going on. We were referred back to CAHMS. We saw another psychologist twice who reported that she saw nothing at all. So the matter was dropped. At his old school (which was and still is in special measures ? so they have enough problems!) nothing was said to me about DS in year 1, apart from one or two minor incidents with carpet time and one incident where DS was pinched (and he had lost his temper and wouldn?t stop screaming at the other child).

DS is socially fine, has a friendship group and his behaviour is usually ok. The only things I have noticed are sensitivity to some clothes/labels and some noises (e.g. fireworks), and, on occasion, he gets in a tiss/loop and it takes him time to get out of it.
I guess my question is (sorry) what are your experiences with SENCO and any advice you have for me? I have had great general advice from the parents educational advice charity about what to ask, but any personal advice about what might be the issue and/or what happens next would be so helpful.

Thanks for reading

Apologies if you have already grasped this - but I hadn't when I started out on the SEN scenario .... the SENCO / SEN process kicks in where a child needs more support that the average "differentiation" offers - when they say "differentiation" they mean that the teacher adapts the style or level of teaching to the child - but only to a certain extent - if the needs more support than the usual - then the SENCo would get involved - so it may not necessarily mean that the child has any particular "special need" or "disability"
There is a guide to the theory of how SEN should work on the internet at www.teachernet.gov.uk/docbank/index.cfm?id=3755

...though if you hang around here for a while you'll see that how schools operate in practice will vary quite a lot.

I would make sure I wasn't shy about asking questions to establish what there concerns are - and find out what they have already done and what they plan to do to support him - and how they will monitor progress going forward.

Sounds like there may be some sensory issues - but I'm not sure a senco would necessarily pick up on this. Only advice would be to listen to what senco has to say but don't necessarily have to agree to anything they suggest on the spot. For example, they may produce an Individual Education Plan suggesting tactics to help your ds and ask you to sign straight away. It's ok to say you'd like to take a copy home to think about it before you sign. Then you can always do some research or sound people out here or in real life for opinions on what they suggest.

It's great that they are talking to you about their concerns. My prev school had concerns - but didn't mention them to me.

A SENCO can't diagnose anything, so if they think he has any kind of SN then all they can do is recommend you go to the GP for a referral to a paed.

They may be right, they may be wrong, but it's great that they're talking to you about their concerns.

Only thing I would recommend is that if they are talking in euphamisms and you don't understand what they're trying to say - ask them exactly what they mean. Also ask them what they're concerns are - so you can pass them on to a GP. They may be reluctant to tell you a 'label' like Aspergers, Dyspraxia or ADD because they are not qualified to diagnose. But you need to know what label they are thinking of so that you can tell the paed.....

Oh thanks so much everyone! Yes it is vague - and I will ask for specifics, seeing as there never has been anything seen as a lable. I did know a tiny bit about differentiation, but didn't know that SENCO might or might not mean SN and it can be about support. I'll make sure I go in armed with questions and ensure I take stuff away first. Because I don't know what I am looking for, it is hard for me to know what I should be worried about. More than happy to work with them, of course, just feel clueless. I guess two times, two different people raised concerns and then we were told nothing going on at all. I do need some indications if I need to go to a GP.

The sensory gets better with age, but that is the only thing I have noticed as explict in my son's responses to stuff. Otherwise, he is imaginative, high academic stuff, makkes friends, likes others and can focus on stuff at home.

It is really stressful not knowing what is going on / if something might be going wrong - what do the teachers think? are they making a fuss about nothing? or have you missed something [though it isn't fair to think this, but we all do] etc...but don't forget your username already says it - you are trying your best. That's the most that you can possibly do - hope you get some answers from SENCO that make some sense. let us know how it goes.

sorry when I said "we all do" - I mean we all beat ourselves up about our parenting NOT we all think you missed something - oops

Not rocket - that's the thing: not knowing! The teachers haven't said what the issue is. I may have missed somethig and happy to ensure ds is supported if so, but we've gone down this road before and got told nothing wrong. Every report from both schools was fine. Ds has friends, behaviour generally good, ability great...so I just don't know what it is apart from what I have noticed. As I don't see him in a school setting he may be doing stuff there he doesn't do at home. Oh and then even if SECNO says they are woPerhaps it is more pronounced? It SENCO worried about x and y, this won't mean anything without further investigations - though I will push for their line of thinking. If we go to the GP I can imagine his response, seeing as a psych. said nothing wrong.
I just wish we'd had some info before now about concerns.
I will let you all know what they say and ask for advice again. I just want DS to be happy and have a good time at school.

A SENCO is a teacher. Their job is to co-ordinate SEN provision within school, so don't worry too much.
Make sure you give them copies of any paperwork relating to CAMHS as they may well not know what the outcomes were when your ds was seen by the psychologist.

Thanks, cornslik - will do!

Trying if a child has difficulty in a class room environment, I think their behaviour would be very different than a parent may see outside of school. I had to complete a questionnaire about my son for an assessment for ADHD. The school also had to do one on is behalf. Theirs was awful .. used the word 'intimidate'. I was devastated as I do not see that side of him at home or around his friends outside school. So my conclusion is, my son is really struggling in the learning environment and I need to get him help. Agree with others .. get more deails of where they see he is having difficulties. They cannot be vague or beat around the bush - ask them directly.

Coogar - thanks; and this may well be the case. As said, if he is SN he needs the right support. It is just that parent's evening was the end of November and I see the teaching staff every day. The written report was:
social and personal: settled in to class, has a friendship group, relates very well to peers and adults. Very good behaviour.

Academics: advanced ability. 3as and 4s for reading, writing and maths (he is year 2).

Gerenal: Ds is kind, friendly and intelligent. Enoys all topics and tries hard at all subjects.

Past reports were similiar. I have only had two points where the new teacher said DS had mucked about in carpet time and the falling out incident. I really need lots and lots of examples and how it is preventing him learning etc, so I know what to ask the GP (if they suggest this).

Ps sorry I should add: The new teacher is NQT and thus may have felt unconfident or unsure about raising this before?

Also, I teach young adults and about 25% have dyslexia or dyspraxia , and some are Aspergers and a couple are dx ADHD. So while I couldn't possibly dx anyone(!) I do have bit of experience in terms of the way these adults learn; not sure if that will ever prove useful in terms of ds!

he is clearly a bright boy. As he's been assessed already by CAMHS as not having SN it may be that his needs are not being met in class

I'll make sure the school has all the relevant info and see what the teacher/SENCO says. Yes, he's an able enough kid - but - there might be more going on that I just can' t know! I guess twice people have said he needed checking and I did do what was asked...and always open minded (though not sure CAMHS will want to see us again!)

Hope it all goes well it's good that the school are keeping tabs on him anyway.

Trust your own instincts - you can read up on diagnostic criteria for ASD etc and then make your own judgment. Whilst the teacher may well have seen something - especially if they have been on a course and told of certain signs to look for - having traits of various conditions does not equal a diagnosis.

When my youngest son was diagnosed ASD his brother's teacher told me that I would be surprised how many children have some autistic traits. But my son is very disabled by his ASD while these kids just had a few aspects.

My middle son has a friend who ticks many boxes - monotone odd voice and way of speaking, flaps, blurts out at inappropriate times, gets excessively upset about trivial things, takes things very literally, can't do up buttons, takes forever to get dressed - so quite a lot of traits - but he is very very social and has no rigid behaviours, so he does not meet the triad of impairment for ASD.

Teachers are not qualified to diagnose.

Also I do know parents whose children probably are slightly on the spectrum who have not chosen diagnosis - as their traits do not affect them negatively, ie they function well, are happy and have good friends etc. They tend to read up and manage the issues themselves.

However where something is affecting a child negatively then its worth pursuing a diagnosis / explanation.

I would just go and listen and then perhaps ask for a second meeting so you can have time to think it over. Don't feel pressured to make any decisions on the spot.

Thanks! He doesn't meet the triad for ASD - CAHMS were clear about that - and the trainee teacher had only observed him for a few hours. Same with the daycare worker - about 5 hours in total.

Funnily, ds initiated a talk about school this morning (I haven't mentioned what theyv'e said, and wouldn't). He said he liked school but thought the writing part of literacy frustrating. He said that he can do the work - putting stories in order or writing about them, but thinks he has two brains: a working brain and a thinking brain. He said his working brain needs to do the work fast so he can think, but he can't write fast enough and it hurts his hand. He said he wants to use his thinking brain because then he can 'make up poems, think about how things would be if everything in shops was free' (seems typical kids stuff but is getting distracted). So he says he sometimes thinks rather than tries to work fast and gets told to hurry up. As he is on the top table the teacher and TA let them get on with it, so he ends up drifting. He said he finds the repetitive literacy taks 'boring' but also 'too hard' because he hasn't the 'patience' (his word) to spend 'ages' writing stuff his 'thinkig brain can get in a flash' (his words).

He asked if he could move to the bottom table so he could do shorter work...so he could spend time using his thinking brain. He says it is ok with maths because the writing is quicker (he always finishes first - I've seen it in a morning - and then he can read a book or draw/write his own stuff).

No idea what this means...only time I've seen this (with other stuff) is with adults who are dyspraxic. So hard to tell if writing is too hard for him (as said he has trouble with buttons etc - takes him ages) or whether he can't grasp the work. But if I ask him to tell me verablly any stuff he is so, so quick with puzzles, concepts and stories.

Hi
Thanks you for all your lovely support for my post. I did want to update you. I went to see SENCO today. The teacher had written a report and she and SENCO talked to me about it. SENCO started b y saying we?d only be in the room ten minutes ? more like 45 mins by the end. It is all feeling complex! Here is what they said:

1. Confirmed DS?s academic abilities and his enthusiasm for learning.
2. Confirmed generally behaviour ok, but often questions work he has been given.
3. Said teacher SENCO not even met DS and I suggested she might want to talk with him) had noticed three difficulties. Firstly, that sometimes during carpet time, DS would appear not to be paying attention and would go into a ?dream world? and, sometimes, this would be expressed by some slight moving about which distracted the teacher and other kids. The teacher said sometimes it took 3-4 attempts to get him to respond to her but he always knew the answer to her questions, so she wasn?t sure if he was listening or not. Secondly, that while he had a good friendship group there had been four occasions in the playground where DS had over-reacted to some comments made by other children (not in the friendship group) about the games they were playing, which had resulted in lots of crying and he couldn?t calm down easily and stressed/anxious about his crying ? upset he had upset everyone.. Teacher said he was anxious and scared and had scared her and the other kids. Thirdly, that during group work for literacy he was now not finishing his work and staring into space so she couldn?t give him planned extension work. She said she knows he can do the work (and beyond) so worried that he can?t control his ?out of world experiences.?
4. SENCO did beat around the bush and I asked her to be straight. She said she couldn?t diagnose but thought DS = ASD. I explained previous context/history and asked if she felt I should go back the GP ? but she said it wouldn?t help him if they couldn?t defo dx. 5. She said she wanted to try out a social story that she used for ASD, which pointed out why he need to change his behaviour and that she would let me have a copy so I can practice at home. But then, which is worrying, she told teacher to give DS differentiated work, such as ?puzzles and jigsaw.' (He is not a fan of jigsaw, I have to say). So what is that about?
5. She did not want to do school action or an IEP and said if her social story did not work she would ask the ed. Pysch to give them strategies.

So: trying to take it all in but I have booked a GP appointment and going to ask for a referral to a paed. Any advice about any of this. How do I support DS? How do I advocate for him? How long might it take to get a referral? And what happens?

ARGH ? I just want the best for him!

If she is going to call in the Ed psych then that means he should go on School Action Plus on their SEN reg.

Frankly - he sounds fine just a bit yonderly at times. The jigsaw thing needs to be stamped on.

I'm really not sure why the teacher is getting so worked up about him being a bit dreamy during carpet time. If it was all the time or more times in the week than not then fine.

The SENCO should do a formal observation of your son to make any judgement. I would worry a little bit about the over reaction thing - it may be that he has problems controlling his emotions.

A far better tactic would be to give him a timer. Then he knows the parameters to finish his work. I think he has so many ideas in his head that he gets diverted by them. They are bound to be far more interesting than school work.

The SENCO doesn't sound brilliant. Is the class teacher very young/NQT? However, I think it better that they are concerned than not. Social stories are great but if there is a 'something' then one socil story is not going to solve things overnight. It may be good if the Ed Psych gets involved particularly if they do a classroom observation. It may be he is just in the Gifted and Talented strata which means he is wired a bit differently. It takes quite a confident and empathetic teacher to deal with this type of child because you have to really think 'outside the box' and go with the flow. One of my students is very very clever with a range of SEN and he also goes into dream worlds and quite often doesn't get things done without reminders because he is just too busy being imaginative. So much of school these days squashes imagination.

PS - mother of son with various SEN and I am a SEN teacher in secondary so can see things from both sides.

Has your son ever been seen by an Occupational therapist? It's just that I work alongside paediatric O.T's and know sensory issues can be manifest themselves in the form of behaviour and have huge impacts on children's social skills. I would ask for a refrerral via your GP.
Jollijo

There are a few bits in your message that I just wanted to pick up on:

"Thirdly, that during group work for literacy he was now not finishing his work and staring into space so she couldn?t give him planned extension work".

If she has planned extension work for him, then he should be doing this instead of his group work. If he is a 4b in writing, I would suspect he is way ahead of the rest of his group and may therefore be frustrated. (I don't say this lightly, or as a reason to excuse his behaviour).

She should absolutely not be even suggesting that your ds is on the Autistic Spectrum. If this is a serious concern of hers, then she should be referring him directly to the Ed Psych.

The jigsaw thing is a pile of shit. Argue against this one immediately. What is her justification for it?

She should also be putting him onto school action plus if he is referred.

Oh flyingmum - amazing advice. The teacher is NQT - very lovely and very stressed. She does want to do the best for my son though. SENCO said she had SENCO time next Wednesday so would speak with DS then. The social stories sound good - but, as you say, it won't change things quickly if there is a SN.
How do they work? Do the kids have to keep reading them, keep them by them for reminders?

I am worried about the over-reaction - it needs looking at. Yes I was confused about no IEP but in future possible Ed. Pysch.

Funnily, my OH said why not a timer! Ds not inflexible, or a stickler for routines, but OOH thinks something along the lines of this (at least until we get ssome more input/dx) might assist a bit here.
The teacher feels his slight moving about distracts her and the other kids; plus she has to ask him more than once to respond (which at times I have at home if DS reading).

DS was so stressed tonight wanting to know why I'd seen the teacher. So sad for him to be stressed at 7.

Yes - jigsaws. I feel now, on reflection, did she mean autistic kids all like puzzles! No, I will tell them no way. He wants paper to write on; that is all.

Why is he moving around? Is he uncomfortable? Would he be better off sitting on a chair?

I don't know! Good point!