School using behavioural chart for 3 weeks, without telling me. DS1(6) mild ASD, behaviour still bad.

[Oblomov]

wonder if you could advise.
Ds1(6.9) was good as gold as school. Pyschologist (private) says can't diagnose ASD becasue doesn't tick enough of the boxes. but where he does, it is severe. e.g. very poor empathy.

But saving grace was that he was good at school atleast. Bright, doing well. no problems. Until now.

Just before half term, one of ds's friends tells me thta he is so naughty that he lost his playtime on his beahviour chart again.
I was so livid. Met teacher. SENCO was there aswell. SENCO said there had never been a problem in the last 2 years, so ther 'must be a reason, as if it must be me !! SENCO did know I was having him assessed. she knew home problems and thus advised me to.teacher said it had been going on for weeks, and that she had meant to catch me !! but that this week, she instigated chart etc.

discussed it with him over half term.promised his beahviour would improve.

so today i go for a meeting with teacher. he's been telling me that he's ben good all week.
he has lied to us. he had been good. very good. but also lost alot of minutes she says. for calling out. copying and mimicking her in a nasty silly voice. etc etc.

she says this is the schools standard way of dealing with behaviour. warning, minute lost at playtime etc. and that she has lots of children on the board who have been told off etc.

but i think teacher is naieve, as to the fact thta the other children know this is going on. I support strong discipline totally. but if charts don't work after a week or 2 , surely something else needs to be examined.

My friend, who has a ds in the same class had problems with her ds in reception. all the children called him a naughty boy. he had a chart going on for over a month without mum being told. then she found out that they sat him up high and all the children were asked if he had been a good boy today.
stigmatised.
soon all the parents were talking about him. not invited to parties etc.
as it was, when he was moved to a different table, away from 2 boys, he was good as gold and floursihed, particularly academically.

The friend, ( the ds thta made the original comment about losing his minutes, ) told me that everyone is still talking about my ds. presumably parents are too. I want them to discipline him. but discreetly. I don't want him talked about.

PLUS, after the long talk over half term, it doesn't seem to be working , does it ?
teacher said she wanted to continue with it for another 2 weeks, but i think quite alot of damge has already been done.

Or maybe i am totally over-reacting. they do know best. shall i let them get on with it ?

No - you need to start realising that a child with ASD cannot just start 'being good' because you've told him to / he decides to.

'Disciplining' him is not going to help.

For someone who has gone to the lengths of seeking a private psychologist's opinion for suspected ASD, and who has been told that he has some (severe) traits you really should be a lot more knowledgeabble about the condition and what support he will require at school.

Attempting to browbeat him into submission through increased discipline is not going to work.

If you do want to help him the you should request that he is placed on Schools Action and his progress monitored by an IEP.

Your son is not getting any ASD specific support and that is a crying shame that will evitably lead to a really poor outcome.

You should ask the SENCO to develop strategies to help him in light of his condition. Don't assume that ASD children know how to behave - they don't always. It's something that is taught specifically to them by the use of social stories etc.

Best wishes

WetAugust, yes I do feel very ignorant about what help he may need.
As soon as I found out, about these recent problems, I felt like saying them,
"but, but, you can't do that. He's not 'normal'. he needs help. he has very mild aspergers." I felt like saying, you would never do this to some of the other sn children in his class.
But I never said anything, becasue I wasn't knowlegeable enough.
SENCO woman said " I wouldn't have thought it was aspergers. we've never seen anything wrong. and we do care. you only want a diagnosis if you absolutely have to, you know "

so please. I know I sound like I haven't tried, but that really isn't the case. I do really care.
Please tell me where i need to go. what links ot I need to read, to undertsand the help, he might possibly need.

Sorry Oblomov if my post read a bit 'hard' to you. I didn't intend it to be.

The first thing to realise is that a specific dx is not (that) important - useful but not the be all and end all.

School should be supporting the difficulties he is displaying i.e. the 'naughty' behaviour. I put that in ' ' because i doubt he is deliberately trying to be naughty - it's just that his condition stops him from undertsanding social norms and conventions. ASD children don't pick uyp these things in the same natural way that NT kids do - they have to be proactively taught them in school and at home. That's why you see people on here posting that their ASD child called a fat woman fat - they don't understand that they've broken the social rules.

Another example: My ASD son was told while young at school to 'get in line'. He then ran around the playground trying to find thisliteral 'line' that he was supposed to get into. On the face of it that was 'bad' behavior. In context it was reasonable behviour as he misunderstood the meaning of 'line' and took it literally.

Can you see how behaviour can be misinterpreted now?

That's what school also needs to undertsand.

He should be having some ASD specific learning - how to understnad others, social and communication skills, how having some ASD traits affects him.

TBH - I would just apply for a Statement now. That way he will be assesed by Com Paed, Ed Pysch etc etc which will give you a full list of his difficulties and possibly even lead to a dx.

I'd see my GP and ask for a referal for NHS assessment for possible ASD.

I'd definitely demand he was placed on Schools Action and had an IEP to be reviewed at least 6 monthly - possible 3 monthly.

I would explain Asoergers / ASD to his teachers by giving them the NAS 'quick guide' to the condition.

I would start to find out about social stories that I could use at hme to teach him social and comms skills and I would encourage school to do the same.

That wouldbe far more productive that letting school sit on their arses telling him off and hoping (gainst hope) he starts 'behaving'. i.e. conforming to a social norn that is anything but norm to him.

Best wishes

WetAugust, my dh and I are sat here reading your post. And I want to sincerely thank you for your beautiful, but more importantly comprehensive post.
I did not know what a IEP was. But i do now. I looked it up.
I have a Tier 3 NHS referal booked for Jan 2011. I went to my Gp in April, based on the SENCO's advice.
I have seen the child pyschologist 4 times, in the last few weeks. she told me about Gray, social stories. I have already looked into buying them. Didn't know school we supposed to do them too.
I thought i wouldn't get a statement becasue , child pysch said he wasn't strong enough to diagnose ASD clearly.

I am ashamed that I shouted at him badly tonight. for lying to us. each day he came home and told me he had been good.

I am so cross with teacher and senco. Child pysch and the CAHMS lady who came to see me today, told me to grow a thick skin, and that school wouldn't like it. Now I know what they mean.

School should be tailoring his learning to ASD if that the traits the pyschologist has spotted.

You say he's 'mild'. We all get told that (Aspergers usually) but it's subjective and while it is mild compared to classic non-verbal autism it is stillcauses very severe social and comms problems.

Some ASD children get taught in ASD-specific 'bases' in mainstream where they are taught the full national cirriculum and also social stories and how their condition affects them - ASD awareness. I doubt your current school is doing any of that for him.

You're doing all the right things that you've listed above in an attempt to get a dx. the tertiary centre will almsot certainly give you a formal dx.

You could go down the Schools Action, then Schools Action Plus escalation path that may finally lead to schoolrealising that he may need a Statement or you could circumvent all that nonsense and go straight in with a request for an assessment yourselves, directly to the LA. Personally I'd wait until you've had the Tier 3 assessment and then submit a request with the dx report enclosed.

You're right to be angry at school -they are failing him.

You're CAMHS Psych is quite correct - school don't like what they consider to be demnding parents because they have to fork out money to provide proper support. I predict that school would not support a request for a Statement either - for those reasons.

I used to shout and scream at my own DS pre-diagnosis, as I couldn't understand why he behaved the way he did. I never shout these days - I explain pateintly and quietly. That's much more effective. It's a matter of tyuning into the world as he sees it and explaining to him what he doesn't understand - often the bleeding obvious

I must apologise again for my earlier tone. i guess I just get frustrated that so many of our kids are being so badly failed by schools - as my own was.

Best wishes

"...for calling out. copying and mimicking her in a nasty silly voice. etc etc."

As WetAugust said, he may not understand the classroom rules, so perhaps they need to be a bit more specific - these can also be targets on his IEP.

1. When the teacher is speaking to the class, you must put your hand up until she says "Yes, DS1"

1. Do not use any voice other than your own. When it is lesson time, you must use your "indoor" voice ie quiet.

1. When the teacher says "Listen" she is speaking to the whole class including you because it would take a very long time to say all the names. When she says "Listen" you must stop what you are doing, face him/her and not speak unless you put your hand up like in rule 1.

This should give him an idea of some of what is expected. The teacher needs to give the same signal everytime (mine are just suggestions) and then, if he breaks a rule, he can lose a minute just like his classmates.

HTH

Thank you everyone. Must go to bed now.
Thank you for the links to the SAP. I may take purples ideas as part of the objectives for the IEP.
He knows the rules purple. sometimes he says to me ' i want to be a good boy. But I just don't seem to be able. its like my brain just won't let me'.
I told the child pysch this. i am paying privatley for her, through BUPA at work, becasue i didn't know how long the nHS would take.
I have been off work for 6 weeks now. My diabetes has gone ballistic. has been like this for many many months now. and i just can't cope.
Hopefully the stress, after realising that it was mild asd, will get less and i will be able to cope with it better. and thus my diabetes will get better. chicken and egg thing.

I was so cross at teacher. she said to me ' he's so bright, he knows what the rules are'. And I thought 'god thats typical ASD ignorance, to even say that, isn't it ?

Calm.
Thick skin on. Fighting hat on.
Check. check .

Many thanks to you all.

Dx or not he's still you're gorgeous little boy. And "mild" Asperger's is in relation to other people on the spectrum! ASD also doesn't mean stupid - i used to have a keyboy who wrote me notes in code, often about his feelings and frustrations. It took me a good couple of weeks and many clues to break the code, and apparently I'm NT and intelligent...

It will become easier to deal with as you find the strategies that work for you all. This forum is a good place to vent as well as get good advice. Mine at the moment would be find a way to get some time out for yourself

An example of "bad" behaviour.

My friend's son would not respond to "Would the green table please come and sit on the carpet?", because her son did not think he was a green table. The teacher had to say the boy's actual name too. It looked as though he was ignoring the teacher's instruction but (from his point of view) he was not.

Oblomov,

You indeed do not have to go down the SA, SA plur route at all to obtain a Statement, you can go straight to Statementing by making such a request to the LEA. You would need to write to the Chief Education Officer at your LEA and give them six weeks to reply. I would not delay and would write to them asap.

Aagh - some teachers/schools just don't get it do they. Ds is regularly in trouble for walking away from teachers/HT. When I ask him why it's because he is always told to 'walk away from trouble' at school. When I explain this to staff it's always 'no,he's bright and knows exactly what he's doing'. Have just got draft statement and school are really trying at the moment - getting observation from staff at local SS in hope of getting some strategies in dealing with him. Oblomov - put in for sm now. We don't even have dx yet but it's all about need. Your ds should be getting the help now while he's still reasonably young. My ds (10) is only just getting help after years of being labelled the difficult,naughty boy and it's heartbreaking.

A clinical psychologist? That is totally the wrong person for your son to be seeing. Nor is a clinical psychologist qualified to diagnose asd.

You need to go to a pead, who will ask and educational psychologist to assess your son. The Ed Psych's assesment will form part of the diagnosis - but not the only part.

IME (of 3) clinical psychologists are exactly the wrong people to help ASD children.

sorry oblomov, not trying to hi jack your thead, just curious about what indigobell just said, my ds clinical psychologist has just asked me if we agree for him to be assess for asd. it's my understanding that it will be her and the pead doing it, should i be asking for his ed psych to do it.

No, ed pysch is primarily for educational needs, not for a diagnosis (these people cannot diagnose anyway). The developmental paediatrician is usually the person who makes a diangosis.

In our case the paed made the dx. But he asked the ed psych to asses DS. The EP didn't dx but did write a report pointing out he had rigidity in thinking etc. We never had an ADOS test or anyhing like that.

DS was 9 and has a dx of aspergers.

We never saw a clinical psych as part of the dx process.

well, my story is that I went to my GP, who said that she couldn't refer me to CAHMS, becasue there was no mental health issue ( my private clinical pyschologist has now told me this was nonsense), but GP refered me to top Paed. Spoke to SENCO about this and she said this was fab, and he was the best.
When I got to NHS clinic, I did not see him. I saw the ADHD specialist, who said he was a bit 'wilfull' and that there was nothing that could be done. He failed the 'theory of mind' tests, miserably. I was desperate so beegged for a clinical pyschologist. was given an appointment for 12 months time, and told to 'see how I got on' !!

Not happy, I made an appointment through my work BUPA, to see the top Pead privately. he suggested ODD. said he wanted me to see his top clinical pyschologist. so we have been seeing her. through BUPA. she said Aspergers. not strong, but def there. she said that he was so bright, but lack of empathy was huge. and that she was surprised that ADHD specialist, in clinic hadn't followed this up.

So, I think I can get a diagnosis out of my private child pyschologist. so Indigo, I have only followed hte path set for me.
And rmmeber, that at this stahe, there were no problems at school.

So, thanks for the posts.
Dh and i have decided :

1. I have already phoned and asked our clinical pyschologist, if she has written tot eh school, as she said she would do 2 weeks ago. If SENCO has her letter, detailing her 'Aspergers' - possibel- symptoms. then if she has that letter, she won't have much of a leg to stand on. 2)We will both go to school tomorrow and ask teacher to stop this technique, until we have had meeting with SENCO, and all agreed what is best. She won't like this. She has , only been following the schools normal discipline proceedure. but the fact is a) its not working b) they haven't taken on board he is not a NT child. He is being assessed for Aspergers. They know this.
2. Dh will come to meeting with SENCO. He is a top Manager and is fab at this sort of thing. WE will tell her that our long term plan is statement, IEP etc. see what her response to that is. I will try and be quiet and just listen.

We'll see how it goes. But realistically is not going to be nice, is it ? The whole thing is to keep the balance. You need the school on side as much as poss. You have to be firm and get what you want. But not alienate them.

Wish us luck.

Any advice ? However harsh. Please give.

Sorry Oblomov, I didn't mean to upset you.

My personal experiences of clinical pyschologists have been very bad. Glad your experiences are better.

Re your comment:-

"3) Dh will come to meeting with SENCO. He is a top Manager and is fab at this sort of thing. WE will tell her that our long term plan is statement, IEP etc. see what her response to that is. I will try and be quiet and just listen".

You certainly need a strong advocate yourself at these types of meetings, would also take notes.

No re long term (how long exactly?), would be applying for the Statement now. Bet you in response she will spout some untrue and meaningless garbage about your child being "too able" to qualify for a Statement.

Really and truly you as parents are his best AND ONLY - advocates.

IEP is not known on here as Individual Empty Promise for nothing. Many IEPs are not actually worth the paper they are written on.

Empty Promise. Attila, atleast you've made me laff.

So, we take him to school this morning. And dh asks teacher not to 'lose minutes', until we've had a meeting, to discuss.

After school, We go to meeting. Teacher and SENCO there. 1.5 hours. ds1 is sat outside.
They say they await diagnosis or letter from Clinical Pyschologist. (who texts me today, to say she will e-mail it to me first, to get my approval. she will do this prior to fri, so that we can discuss it on friday. am a bit cross. because fri will be 3 weeks since i saw her last. I thought she would have done it by now)
They say that they will continue with their standard discipline method for the next 3 weeks. When we will have a meeting with teacher, SENCO, and Headmistress.

I said I was not happy. but had no alternatives to offer as an different option for their standard discipline proceedures. I was cross , but felt powerless.
They will give me a day by day account, becasue last week he lied every day telling me it was good. then it turned out he lost 3 mins most days.

I said it wasn't working, was negative, and they said they had only the old letter from ADHD consultant, who say wilful, and not much else. They said they have no concerns and see no lack of empathy. And if they did anything other than the standards, it would stigmatise him more, which is what i had said to them I hadn't wanted.

I just don't know what to do. I can't seem to cope with the stress of the struggle. I am not surprised by the whole meeting. I feel so ill informed. I just don't know what the alternatives are , to ask them to do instead.

Have you read their Behaviour Policy? You should be able to get a copy on request from reception. If, as you say, there are lots of children on the board, then it sounds like your DC is not the only one it doesn't work for

A more positive alternative would be to agree on two targets with each child. At nearly 7, I don't think it's unreasonable to ask this of a class? Eg: I will try to sit still at circle time; I will remember to raise my hand before asking a question; I will try to remember capital letters at the beginning of sentences and names; I will use my best handwriting every time I write; I will use my "indoor" voice in the classroom.

Then, each child gets a sticker for each day they do these things, adding up to a small reward eg a certificate when they get 10. They could get a certificate presented in assembly for 25 or more stickers in a half term (based on a 6 week half term = 30 school days)

Hope this gives you some ammo for the next bit :)