DD 4 to be referred to a SALT. Dreading them saying ASD as this a there's no way I think this is the issue

[puffling]

Just wondering what the speech and language service will do. Can they diagnose?

DD is shy at school. She has one close friend and some others. She takes time to weigh up what she wants to do. If her friend isn't there she will sometimes sit/stand on her own. If she's told off she won't look at the teachers. She feels more comfortable around some teachers than others and will not really talk to the ones she's not at ease with.

My fear is that the school is trying to work towards an ASD diagnosis. I've never felt that this is the issue. She never concerned me as a baby or toddler. With us she's always been funny, affectionate, humorous etc. At school, I think she finds the lack of structure in reception difficUlt. Her mind is constantly whirring. Whilst other children appear to be milling around, playing and chatting, she's there weighing up the consequences of making a choice to talk/play etc. I see her as having a heightened sensitivity to her surroundings.
It seems an irony to me that a child with a great imagination and vocabulary should need help with speech and language.
Would really appreciate the thoughts of anyone who is a SALT or ed psych.

No the SLT service should not diagnose ASD. They can say 'no it's not ASD' or refer onwards to something like a Developmental Language Clinic - may not be the same name, but a place where several different professionals can spend time with your dd and/or look at all the evidence. i've never actually witnessed a session there but I'm sure others on here will have more info about that.

What have the school said to you?

Hi Puffling

Firstly, welcome to the SN board.

SALTs don't diagnose, but they do form part of the assessment team, and their input is sought by the Paed who can diagnose.

Why is she being referred to SALT?

What is it that makes you think the school are considering ASD, and you are so sure they are wrong?

What child would want to look at someone who is telling them off? That is normal.

If you can tell us some more about her then perhaps we can reassure you. Whatever her needs, she is still your lovely girl.

Thanks for your reply maktaitai.
Her class teacher is very nice and won't commit to anything. I met with the SENCO once (she's never met DD). She waffled for a long time but on her computer screen I saw DD's name and 'possible ASD traits.' She also said to me 'We're all somewhere on the spectrum.' therefore strongly implying that she believed dd is.

The thing that worries me is that questionnaires and tick boxes about behaviours don't look at the motivation for those behaviours.I'm worried that she'll be labelled at the age of 4 and possibly with a condition that she doesn't actually have.

puffling, it really isn't that easy to get an ASD dx. Honestly, if you spend a few hours reading this board, you will see that there are parents of children with definite traits who wait years for a diagnosis.

It is quite unusual for a child to be given a diagnosis quickly, and easily, especially if the parents disagree.

Also, for a diagnosis to be made, the traits have to be present across many settings - so if your DD is fine at home, it is unlikely.

Thanks for your re-assurance Lougle. We live in Salford and they have a policy of early response i.e. from pre-school onwards presumably because of teh social disadvantage here. Ths scares me as i think they'll get the ball rolling too quickly.

My partner under nickname 'gnu' gave a lovely description of dd back in May.The thread title was 'are these ASD traits?' (Am not sure how to linka thread.

puffling You won't get a diagnosis until/unless you want one, even if it might seem they are exploring that avenue.

Now, this is extremely unlikely, but if you happen to live in a place with fantastic resources for early intervention and support based on Need, rather than diagnosis, it is 'possible' that some strategies that are good for children with asd might be suggested and tried.

The thing is though, that asd strategies are actually very good for 'all' children. They require a bit more structure, clear boundaries and language and the setting up and supporting of peer interaction.

In order to get anywhere near an ASD diagnosis, they have to rule out loads of other things, so it might be worth going down the road so that they CAN be ruled out, or if not, so that you get the help with whatever minor issue there is, before it becomes a major issue.

ASD is now probably one of the highest incident of Special Educational Need, so it is kind of unfortunate, but it tends to be the one that untrained professionals think of first, rather than because it is.

Try not to worry. I would advise if you can to go through the exploration route however as there is certainly no harm in getting a more detailed profile of your child's strengths and weaknesses, and if something is highlighted you can get to work on it straight away before it becomes a problem.

hth

Thanks for the message stark. If I wasn't so tense about the ASD thing, I'd probably welcome the intervention as I would like dd to develop strategies to help her socially.

I've skim read The Highly Sensitive Child and what is described there rings a lot truer. Is anyone familiar with this? I don't suppose you can be diagnosed with being highly sensitive?

Thanks justabout. She has no language problems. She talks beautifully with a good vocabulary for her age. I presume they're going for the SALT because it'd the next port of call. .

She's been given a sort of pictorial time table thing to help her choose activities at school. I'm uncomfortable with the fact that it's in display for the class to see. I also know that this sort of thing is used for ASD.

puffling it's rare that I disagree with justabout or Stark but actually, I think that focussing on the ASD thing, will do you no favours.

No matter how good your DD's vocabulary or diction, etc., are, she is obviously not using those skills effectively at school - agreed?

So, if you can step back from your worries that they are pushing her down an ASD route, then look at what the school are actually doing.

They are referring her to SALT, who have in their remit communication. If you don't tackle what seems at the very least to be extreme shyness in the classroom, you could end up in 'selective mutism' territory.

What the choice board does, is give your DD the opportunity to make a choice and communicate without the pressure of talking to adults who she either can't or won't talk to otherwise.

Frankly, my DD1 has a severe SAL delay, and talks the hind legs off a donkey, despite finding it hard to say what she wants to say at all. I would be much more concerned if I was in your situation, with my DD1 having the speech you describe and the vocabulary, yet unable to use it in school. I don't say that lightly.

I think it is time to focus on your DD here, and not your fears of stigma and labelling. Your DD is struggling. SENCOs have enough to do without making up problems. Children in schools struggle to get help even with an ASD diagnosis. Ask Genieinabottle. ASD dx with severe SAL delay, and very little help at all on School Action Plus.

If your DD doesn't need the strategies, she will ignore them and communicate her choices verbally. If she needs them, who cares what they were originally used for?

My DD1 is in a Special school. It doesn't matter why they are there, they all use Makaton, they all use visuals. In fact, I think it would be great if all schools taught all children Makaton, etc., much more inclusive.

Does the timetable help her at all? If not, I think you'd be very entitled to go and ask the teacher why it's still in use. But no doubt they think it does. Is she supposed to use it by herself, or does she have someone to help her choose the pictures etc? If so, why not ask them to try just having someone sit down with her to choose something without the picture timetable? It sounds like the adult time/guidance may be making the choice easier, rather than the picture timetable? not that it matters if she takes her time anyway.

I'm sure you're right and she's a child who will just EAT UP year 1.

Have you been given/sent a copy of the referral sheet? I'd certainly want to know why, if not.

No copy of referral sheet. They did a questionnaire last year without my knowledge which was sent to 'the people who deal with these things.' The lack of knowledge about what's happening, when etc. scares me.

Lougle you're right to observe my concern about stigma. It's not necessarily helpful for me to focus on this. However, I am seriously worried that if they go down the ASD route when I don't think this is the issue, she'll get the wrong help.

The picture timetable maybe helps a little but dd says the teacher often doesn't bother with it. In fact dd brought it home once (because it's hers!) and noone noticed it had gone. I'd prefer they used it with the whole class.

I think dd won't stand out so much in year 1. I think it's a lot to expect 3 and 4 year olds to spend all day making their own choices and running around wherever they'd like. Just hope she doesn't get the patronising SENCO as her class teacher.

Ok, then turn it around a bit. What help do you think they should be giving her?

Speech and language therapists also deal with interaction issues not just language issues.

Heres that post from gnu

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/behaviour_development/968085-Are-these-ASD-traits

So would you describe your daughter more of a reluctant speaker with some social anxieties and with sensory issues in regard to food or not knowing when she is too hot or cold?

Hhmmm... I have just read the post by gnu. I would say, fwiw, go for the assessment and see what they say. What harm can it do. If you decide not to go for any more appointments after that, that is your choice.

Lots of SALTs are really good [some are rubbish], and may be able to give you some ideas to help you Dd socially.

Girls really need good social skills, because their world is very complex socially and if she enjoys the company of others she is going to need sophisticated skils to avoid being a target for bullies.

I have 2 girls who hover somewhere around the spectrum, they have very different issues but the social stuff is one issue they share and it can make their life at school hard.

Hello - I'm puffling's partner so will join in if that's OK.

I tried to describe the situation fully in my previous thread linked above. DD's vocabulary and use of language are excellent. She is however very anxious/sensitive around many things and this effects her willingness to communicate with some people in some settings.

She is happy and confident to talk to family or to other children in relaxed situations. She tends to go silent and look at the floor when directly addressed by adults (other than family) and is withdrawn in large social situations with other children, such as school or parties. She seems worried about feeling shame or about the complexity of social interactions. It doesn't seem to us that she is blind to social interaction issues, but rather is overly aware and senstive to them.

We would be happy if school could help in making sure she doesn't feel so sensitive so often. For instance, I'm sure teachers would be better off talking to her slightly 'indirectly' rather than addressing with a series of loud direct questions. If this is what a SALT can help with - introducing ways to help her be more confident in school - then fine. But we don't want a tick box exercise driving down a diagnostic route that we worry doesn't understand her. Maybe we are blind to the fact that there is something more seriously wrong, but I don't think we are.

PS She has some issues with food (mostly veg-refusal) but doesn't have 'sensory issues' around being hot or cold. What I meant is that she doesn't mind being a little hot or cold, not that she doesn't know if she is.

It might be worth noting that I am the sort of person who has always refused to go onto the dancefloor. In fact I tend to deliberately avoid occasions where that might be an option. But I have no problem with communicating confidently at work, even though 'known dancers' seem highly embarrassed when asked to talk in these more formalised situations. As I get older, I don't feel the need to worry about all the informal occasions that I hate and feel embarrassed in.

I empathasise strongly with DD - she is just the same really - but I do understand that some strategies might come in handy for a young girl and she grows into a teenager

Yes wasuup, I would say she's a reluctant speaker with some social anxieties. If I put myself in her shoes I can see why she wouldn't want to speak in some situations.
I'll give some examples of when she is happy to speak. She loves having silly fun with friends, playing ponies together etc. If she was in the class situation and the teacher said 'hands up who's been to legoland,' she would put up her hand and even be willing to go to the front and say a little about it. She'd be motivated by the fact that it's something fun she has done. If she was reading with a teacher, she'd happily discuss the book. She has a silly sense of humour. if she was asked if she'd rather eat a slug than chocolate cake, she'd laugh out loud and play along with the joke. She willingly describes the situations in school to me and lucidly explains how she feels when she doesn't want to speak to a teacher, something along the lines of, 'I felt like I froze up like the words wouldn't come out of my mouth but they were in my head.'

Situations where she doesn't want to speak/join in include; being asked how she is by someone she doesn't know/connect with, being told off, children at school that she's not connected with, replying if someone says morning, afternoon etc.

Lougle - I'm not sure whether they should be trying to help her or her teachers. I'd love it if they found some way to motivate her in the situations she finds hard but I fear they won't be able to. The best way I've found is bribery. I got her to say 'Thank you for having me,' to my aunt by offering her a box of jelly bears!I think she's a bit like a dog! She just senses who is warm and she's warm back to them. if she finds them cold/boring she's not interested.

LOL at the disagreeable people on this thread....

puffling I think ALL of us would agree that you MUST stay true to your instincts and continually test them out against what you know about your child and any research or strategies you come across, and to receive information from 'professional' with an open but analytical mind.

Have you heard of Selective Mutism? There is a UK website which is down for an upgrade at the moment. It is possible that your daughter maybe experiencing some mild form of this. Basically it is social anxiety type issue in regard to talking in some but not all social settings or to different age groups such as Adults. Again I am only a parent on here but in reality professionals don't know too much about SM not even speech and language therapists. The best thing to do is too reduce anxiety and pressure to speak if this is the case and ask the teachers to accept other forms of communication, maybe writing things down instead?
If left it can worse and more persistent especially if communication is being demanded off her or she is being viewed as stubborn.

The SM site will hopefully be back up in a couple of weeks and has useful downloads/leaflets on it for both yourself and the teacher as to how best support your daughter if you think this is maybe a possibility.

I would still agree to getting her assessed though to rule ASD out as it can be very subtle in girls.