Moondog and other fab peeps., help with SMART targets

[debs40]

On another thread, we've been talking about the importance of SMART targets.

I want to pick your brains on those just handed to me by school who are, I have to say, really trying now there is a SA. We have very eager to please new teacher too.

However, although writing target is nice and specific (and relates to specific letters), the others are very broad and I'd like help to re-frame them.

They are:

Target 1 - to discuss and listen to differing points of view

Success - to engage in discussion with peers, giving and listening to different points of view

Target 2 - to organise self independently at the start/end of the day (something that's not been achieved in last 3 years!)

Success - organises things at start and end of day qwithout support on 5 consecutive days

Target 3 - To increase visual/auditory memory

Success - able to remember more than 5 things on 3 consecutive occasions

Now I know what is wrong with them - they are not SMART! But I want to be supportive and encouraging as they are trying to focus on the key issues and his new teacher wants to do the right thing.

The LA SALT has said she will write some targets and I don't not what they'll be, but the teacher wanted to see meabout these after the hols. Anyone got any suggestions for breaking the targets down? That is what I find hard.

I will have a shot at this, but would prefer if I knew more about your dc's ability in this area:

Target 1 - to discuss and listen to differing points of view

Woah - toooooooooooooo broad!

Needs to be split into discussing/listening to at the very least:

X will make/ask [number e.g. 2] comment[s]/questions on a [type of topic e.g. specified, preselected or spontaneous] topic in a [time e.g. 5 minute] conversation with [number of peers e.g. one peer] in a [type of settin e.g. structured or naturalistic] setting, supported by [insert details of cues e.g. visual and verbal cues, hand signals, pre-teaching and modelling of conversation] etc.

X will be able to remember and report on 2 comments that a peer has made on a specified, preselected topic in a 5 minute conversation in a structured setting. Initally, X will be prompted to make a note of comments by an adult 2-3 times in the conversation.

(To be honest, I might be going much further back than this e.g. selecting listening behaviours such as orienting to the speaker or looking in their direction etc which I might do with an adult in a 1:1 etc, brainstorming things to say about a topic etc but this is just an example?)

Success - to engage in discussion with peers, giving and listening to different points of view

Well, as above.. to increase difficulty, you might alter

• number of comments/questions
• setting (structured - natural)
• number of people
• with whom (familar adults, non-familiar adults, familiar preferred peers, non-familiar preferred peers, non-familiar peers)
• level of structure/support e.g. cues etc.

Hope this makes sense.

LOL, arses self-nominating as fab.

Me too!

Your targets are not targets. They are 'aims'.

So, Aim one: to discuss and listen to differing points of view.

Targets for achieving this are: .....

It does make sense and you are super kind to write it all out. I think it just makes clear how much expert input is needed to make any progress. You could be doing these bleeding targets knocked up by a kind hearted teacher and clueless SENCO for years!

Star you are right - these are aims and not targets. Duly noted to be casually but kindly thrown into a conversation as if have thought of it myself![hwink]

So not nominating as fab, believe me! Trying to exercise the brain ahead of returning to work after 12 months off on mat leave!

I don't know your ds' needs but I'll have a go (I'm learning myself however):

Aim/Objective 1 - to discuss and listen to differing points of view

Target: To be able to stop talking about his topic after a time limit and to listen to a topic introduced by a peer.

Strategy (how): ds to be paired with one other peer to talk about a topic he is interested in, and then to talk about a topic the peer is interested for 2 minutes each.

Success criteria: ds, in 3 consecutive occassions, independently and without prompting finishes talking about his preferred topic within the 2 minute deadline. He will then answer successfully 1 question about what his peer is talking to him about for the following 2 minutes.

Aim 2 - to organise self independently at the start/end of the day (something that's not been achieved in last 3 years!)

Target: To take coat of and hang it on hook, sit down at a table with a pencil and paper out without being the last of his classmates.

Strategy: Focus on prompting him to take off his coat and hang it up. Once that is mastered and he can do it independently, introduce the pencil and paper. Select one helpful classmate to always be slower than ds to begin with so that he can succeed, but decrease the time that the classmate takes to organise themselves.

Success criteria - Takes coat off and hangs it up, sits down at a table with a pencil and paper and is able to do this faster than at least one other classmate who is doing things at their natural speed, for 5 consequtive days.

Aim - To increase visual/auditory memory

Target: To remember 5 items presented for 30 seconds from a field of 10, after a period of 3 minutes.

Strategy: blah blah blah

Unfortunately these are complicated by requiring a sound evidence base for WHY these targets in particular? What is the purpose of focussing on these things now? Where are they leading? HOW will it improve things for your ds?

Anyway, that is my attempt and I'm new-ish to all this.

And you're right, your problem is bigger than knowing that these aren't SMART, it is how to tackle it with a well-meaning school who believe they are the experts in such things.

THAT I have NOT learnt how to do!

well there is no target timescale
eg within 3 months DS will be able to do x independently at least 80% of the time

If there is no timescale then how do you know if the target has been missed and progress inadequate?

It does come down to how will teach these things- how will they break it down. I doubt many mainstream teachers have much idea.

So in ABA (bear in mind I have a 3 year old) we would

For memory - start 1:1 at table in quiet room and get him to copy chain of actions clap hands, tap head etc. Then move to 5 actions with objects eg knock on door, bang a drum etc. Then space the objects out around the room at 1m, then 2 m etc. Then naturalise it but again starting with simple things eg get shoes, bag, coat etc Then you can move on to more tricky tasks. Obviously your start point could be very different but it should be just one step ahead of where he is so if he remembers 2 steps start working on 3 steps not jumping ahead to 5. Also familiar instructions might be more manageable than unfamiliar ones.

For getting organised again I would imagine you start one step at a time - get 80% success rate - then add a second step. Also we would do series of trials so I might get DS to hang his coat up several times in a row gradually fading out prompts rather than one attempt per day

For discussion with peers - goodness thats a tough one - again find out how would they will teach it - ABA I have seen some nice videos where they model a discussion 1:1, then child practises with 1:1- so its a very set up scenario - then move to real life - perhaps even coach the peers, preselected topic where child given some scripted comments etc and keep it short. Agree this is huge target and the one where you really need an expert. Will they be doing structured social skills / conversation sessions? Who will be taking the group? What training have they had teaching social skills?

Also need to watch what prompts you are using so can ensure fade these out. And what rewards? Are they going to motivate / reward for success?

And data - are they going to record whether he organises self each day - how many things he remembers etc

Not sure how much of that is helpful for your DS but as you can see pretty much every task can be broken down into small parts and then built up again.

Thanks very much for this. I can completely see these targets need to be broken down into small, manageable chunks, time limited and with realistic objectives.

Agnes, you are right, it is who is going to be undertaking this work that is so important. School have a woman who does a 30 min a week social skill group and her background is as a EBD teacher so although she is helpful, her expertise is not ASD.

Apart from that there will be 3 sessions a week to deal with the targets. Not sure with whom. TA probably who has no training. I think they're hanging fire until the outcome of the statementing process.

Teachers can do academic targets but they're lost with this kind of problem. Well, the ones at DS's school are anyway. Yet to even get an expert involved you have to go through a SA. You won't get a SALT near a school, even for oversight, otherwise.

Thanks again guys. Lots of really useful stuff.

Really good points here.
It's about training yourself to think specific.

Agnes' point here is vital

'And data - are they going to record whether he organises self each day - how many things he remembers etc'

To me, stuff such as Target 1 is nigh impossible to make SMART. It is such a long term broad aim and even if there is a well meaning group set up, then opportunities for demonstrating skill will be so few and far between, the work put in may not be worth what outcomes you will see (if any).

I'd set it up as a very controlled PT (again) exercise with numerous/countless opportunities for listening. (free operant behaviour) Then his target responses can be measured over specific periods of time.

This may sound slightly contrived but my work (and al lthe evidence I have read on use of PT-which is papers by the truckload) demonstrate that once you allow behaviour to be free operant then kids fly. We tend to put a ceiling on learning by (unintentionally in most case) limiting opportunities for response/exercising target skill.

Using PT we can do more work in 3-4 1 minute slots than the average teacher or SALT could do in a week.

People forget that Skinner viewed frequency and its importance as the most important aspect of his work.

Here's the link to the Wiki hub. Not very user friendly but if you have tenacity, it contains complete gems and all top names in the world frequent it.

Here

It's better to do small things well than big (ie general) things badly.

Are there any web sites available that may have suggestions of good/not good targets? and examples of IEP forms. Do schools just make their own template up? the one I've been given has nowhere to record, timescales/sucess criteria etc. I'm in the same situation as debs40, going into school on Tuesday to discuss the iep he's been given, which its pretty dire, e.g- target 3- to engage in creative play? no mention of sucess criteria/timescales etc, and this isnt even an area he needs to work on (well not a priority anyway). I know noe of the targets are SMART and to be honest could think of much more relavant ones but not sure how to put them.

Thanks

That's a good idea.
I don't know of one but I'm sure there must be somewhere with good templates.
Most of those created by schools are churned out of a standard programme.

Thanks Moondog. The site looks really interesting but might be posting for your help for technical explanations!

I think this all comes about because they don't understand the core of the issue - the child is autistic. S/he doesn't just need a little extra help putting their books away and hanging their coat up. They need to be taught things specifically, and in a way which works for them.

Debs - great thread

I think your last point has hit the nail on the head. The school has noticed 3 areas your child has difficulties with that affect him in the classroom. But haven't thought about how to teach him those skills

I mean, as far as I know, there is no real way to improve memory. Certainly your school is unlikely to know os a way. ( if memory is the problem they are trying to solve in point 3)

So, what I am trying to say is that even if these targets were SMART it wouldn't help because the school don't have the expertise to teach these things.

Definitely got me thinking. I have concentrated far too much on making targets smart - and forgotten to think about the bigger picture.

debs40, I suspect that the first aim/target whatever is directly taken from the speaking and listening curriculum and perhaps provides support for the bigger picture here e.g.
curriculum.qcda.gov.uk/key-stages-1-and-2/subjects/english/keystage1/index.aspx

So if you want to have a go at them about this, it might be worth asking them about how they will get a baseline for this and how it is being differentiated with reference to strategies etc.

In terms of memory, you can't "increase" it per se, but strategies can be taught to facilitate recall e.g. repeating and rehearsing, but I see no mention of that here. Also, as you can imagine, there is some research that kids on the spectrum do not (generalising here) tend to have visual or auditory memory problems so this, too, is an example of a poorly thought out aim. What functional use will this target serve? What is it meant to serve as foundation for?

I don't know what level your child is at in terms of these skills but it sounds to me that neither do they. Is this IEP the type that has valid aims for two-three years time but makes no sense in the short-term?

Thanks for this. Indigobell you've made me think too. Perhaps I shouldn't be even trying to make these better but pointing out that they really can't do these targets thermselves any more, that they need expert target setting?

I have read quite a bit about improving working memory (which is DS' problem) arses and I think there are strategies which could be implemented with, again, expert guidance. I actually contacted a Prof in the US who has done some really interesting stuff on improving working memory outcomes with behavioural interventions (basically teaching strategies). He sent me his paper which is very interesting if anyone would like a look.

They suggest 'Kim's game' - you know putting things out and taking one away etc. I'm not sure that would hurt but I don't know that it will help that much!

I think I need to switch back on to taking control of DS's progress. You get stuck in a mire with the stat assessment and concentrate on that rather than the ways yoou can start helping your child yourself. This helps to show the things that work.

debs wrt memory, this is how we do it.

At the beginning it is just about improving listening skills so there are things on the table right in front of ds, and you say give me x. Then later it is give me x and give me y. Then later give me the green x and the red y (providing theire is a red x and a green y there too)

Then you mix in other things like 'touch your nose and give me green y'

and we are now at a stage where we say to ds

'clap your hands, go in the front room, get the ball on the sofa (theres also a ball on the floor) and put it in the kitchen sink'

But it started out, just 8 months ago with 'give me x'!

Our solution I supppose is to train ds to be able to follow such instructions. The Autism Advisory service seem to think the solution is to simply supply ds with a picture of each instruction that he can carry around in the order of each task we want him to complete.

Okay, same outcome, ds can still be successful, but his working memory hasn't improved.

Debs, I'd like to see that paper.

I think also that peopel get caught up in that awful jargon with which National Curriculum is written.

'working memory'.
I mean what the hell does that mean?
It's the kind of meaningless guff bandied about by people who hide their lack of knowledge behind a smokescreen of jargon.
Have similar issues with terms like 'auditory processing'.

Gaaaaah.

Again, Kim's game could be worked into a timed task and increases in responding noted. Making a task time bound and measurable, motivates everyone, not least of al lthe TA charged with the task.

I think many people start full of good intentions but these often rather useful activities fizzle out because frankly, where are they going?

With a time and a frequency dimension, we are all spurred on to beat the last timing and crucially the child is competing against noone but himself and the clock (and even quite complex kids love beating the clock).A child also gets ot understand improved performance because, on a Standard Celeratino chart, the line goes up if they do well. That's all they need to get.

As an example, I was working on change with my child. We set up a shop and I was the shopkeeper, her giving me the money. Timed 15 minute chunks using a set sum (eg £5) She chose two things from the shop, worked out cost and change and received them. Dropped them in a bag by her side. Aim was to clear out the shop in that time. We started on about 6-7 exchanges in that time, worked up to about 40. We physically exchanged money.

Then she used different amounts to buy each time (eg £2 £5 £10).
Got even faster.

Finally, in order to allow her behaviour to be truly free operant (ie not constrained at all, or as little as possible)I just called out different amounts of money she mentally cose what she wanted to but and worked out amount and then the change.Got even faster.

Not bad for a kid who two years ago was having trouble adding sums like 4 + 5, even with counters.

Oh, and her timetables are now better than nayone else's in her class as well as her mental addition and subtraction.
Worked on those using SAFMEDS.

Debs - I would be very interested in anything about improving working memory, because I think that is one of DDs problems. Could you send me anything you have....

Thanks

Moondog, Indigo, if you PM me with emails I will forward Prof's email and attachment on.

Moondog, that is a very interesting suggestion. Measuring progress like this gives it some framework but where, as you say, it actually takes you in 'real world' behaviour I don't know.

DS is 7 and the EP noted working memory issues with her tests - v.poor result 5th centile. BIBIC noted the same.

From what I've read, working memory impacts on education in many ways, e.g. numeracy, literacy skills, as well as basic 'remembering' what to do etc.

Yes, but Debs, it's easy to say what the problem is.
The issue is WHAT CAN WE DO TO REMEDY IT.

This paper does set out a strategy which, anecdotally thus far, has achieved positive results. This guy and his team are trying to identify some solutions.

Let me know if you want me to forward it.

I'm trying to understand how Precision Teaching will help me teach my DD (either to improve her working memory, or to learn to read).

It seems to be all about 'how much you can do in a minute' - which is great for measuring progress, but gives you no clues at all for how to teach.

For example I bought the precision teaching phonics book. And all it contained was a set of worksheets that had to be done in a minute. My DD can't do them in a minute. And I don't understand what else I'm meant to do with them.

Can anyone explain?

Cut them inute timing down to 20 secs, or 30 secs.

Thbatr is fine to do.
Let her set the times (I presume you know how important it is to let her know when timing starts/finishes.

A lot of words on one sheet of paper can be aversive, so change them into SAFMEDS.

Re reading, the best (and most fun)reading programme based on Precision Teaching is the online programme There's no work for you to do really but to ensure your child completes at least 3-5 episodes a week (80 in all).

It costs about £150 for 20 hours of the best most evidence based instruction you will get anywhere from anyone.