Moondog and other fab peeps., help with SMART targets

[debs40]

On another thread, we've been talking about the importance of SMART targets.

I want to pick your brains on those just handed to me by school who are, I have to say, really trying now there is a SA. We have very eager to please new teacher too.

However, although writing target is nice and specific (and relates to specific letters), the others are very broad and I'd like help to re-frame them.

They are:

Target 1 - to discuss and listen to differing points of view

Success - to engage in discussion with peers, giving and listening to different points of view

Target 2 - to organise self independently at the start/end of the day (something that's not been achieved in last 3 years!)

Success - organises things at start and end of day qwithout support on 5 consecutive days

Target 3 - To increase visual/auditory memory

Success - able to remember more than 5 things on 3 consecutive occasions

Now I know what is wrong with them - they are not SMART! But I want to be supportive and encouraging as they are trying to focus on the key issues and his new teacher wants to do the right thing.

The LA SALT has said she will write some targets and I don't not what they'll be, but the teacher wanted to see meabout these after the hols. Anyone got any suggestions for breaking the targets down? That is what I find hard.

HeadsproutReading

SAFMEDS

Indigo, she doesn't have to be able to do them all in a minute.
By getting her to practice frequently (say 4-5 1 minute timings a day) she will be able to do more and more and more and more.

Keep a note of her best score each day and watch it soar.

Moondog - is Headsprout suitable for someone who can already read a bit? Looking at the site it seems to start with learning the alphabet. Does it go through those lessons quite quickly if you can alread do them?

By getting her to practice frequently (say 4-5 1 minute timings a day) - this is what I'm asking. This is practicing, not teaching. If she can't read the word, asking her to read it again and again won't help will it?

Also if you practice the same words that much you won't have taught her to read, you will have taught her to recognise those words (ie 'whole word' vs blending)

Last question (:)) When I test her reading 30 words in a minute and she gets one wrong, should I tell her it's wrong and make her go back and get it correct (which slows her down) - or just not count it as a word she read?

Good questions Indigo.

Headsprout is fine for someone who can read a bit as, althoguh it starts on the premise that child a non reader, it moves on very very quickly up to the lvel of a child in Year 4, by the end of Episode 80 (last one).
I've used it with my own children (not English as a 1st language) as well as extensively in a professional context so know it very well.

Very true that little point in practicing whole words without learning how to blend. Yes, child needs both and this is what Headsprout provides (there is in addition a paper based PT system to go with it for children with more complex needs but this is only available to Headsprout users in a school setting as very few parents would be able to run it proerly. For most children, the online programme alone will suffice.)

The most important point is that of error correction within the timing. Very true, you don't want to slow her down but you need to give a quick indication of the 'learning opportunity' (as PTers refer to 'errors') so you have a choice.

1. Turn it into SAFMEDS (see below for description) which is time consuming initially in terms of preparation but a lot speedier and more fun I think. Somethingg quite aversive about a page full of test to a struggling reader.

1. A quick indication of an LO without stopping her. You could underline the word or put a dot by its side but say nothing.

1. I use TAG with PT (google TAGteach) in which I tag (mark with a sound) all corrects but do nothing for an LO apart from underline it (if activity not SAFMEDS style but on a piece of paper). The child very quickly self monitors.

Nop TAG, therefore I did something not quite right!
Essentially that is the most important of all, to have a child monitor their own performance in real time as opposed to wait passively for an adult to intervene and take control (as happens in 99% of most learning programmes) leading to the child shutting down.

When the timing finished, you can tackle the LOs any way you want. We use something from Direct Instruction called Model/Lead/Test.

aka
'I do it'
'We do it together'
'You do it on your own'

So i read out word as it should be, then read it with child then have child attempt alone.

We use this with everything we teach to be honest-doeing zips, mixing cakes, tying shoelaces, doing sums.

So simple yet so effective and it makes you realise very quickly that a lot of the time 'failure' on a child's part is due to the fact he doesn't really understsnd what it is you are asking him to do. Particulalry true in case of verbal instruction given to a child with comm. difficulties.

He gets lost and then we say it again only this time using different grammatical constructions and vocab.

Disaster!!
Great example of how language often impedes as opposed to facilitates laerning.

What I am doing very often therefore is removing language from a scenario (or standardising its use) and then replacing it as and when task masteres.

So then the child relaises that the language is stuff that goes with the task in hand and hopefully thereafter the child can respond more appropriuately to the language.

Maek sense?

Yep, loads of sense. Thanks a lot.

Certainly very different to how I was trying to do it.....

I am well impressed you have given it a go in the 1st place!
PT easy when someone explains it to you but hard to figure out alone.

Were there instructuions with the manual, and which is it and how did you come to buy it?

Just following on with the smart targets I wondered if anyone could give any advice on the following.

Firstly how do you decide with targets are appropriate? I'm trying to come up with better targets than school have given as not only are they not smart they dont really address his issues. I have lots of advice/recommendations from salt, ed psy and ot but am struggling to decide how to pick out whats most important/

E.g I think the areas he most needs support with are, attention, listening, and speech work. However these are all massive areas to work on. How do you choose what is best?

Seondly with regard to timebound. His ieps get reviewed each term so do you choose a target to last a term or all year. If the former how do you know whats appropriate and if the later when are there termly reviews?

I can think of quite a lot of specific targets that are measurable based on reports I have but am unusre how to choose which ones are more important than others.

Sadly I feel his pre school will only do the minimum that they have to, so although there are lots of recommendations I cannot see them putting more into practice than what is actually on his iep so I feel its important that these are right.

Also hes currently going through sa which I am 99.9% convinved will be turned down, if anything on the basis that school are not doing all they can to support him, Therefore I want to have a good iep written so that I can then use it if necessary furthur down the line. iyswim.

Thanks

Should say 'if the later, why are there termly reviews'.

I really should have proof read this!

Moondog - I tried precision teaching because I've heard you talk about it so much. And this is what I found www.aminuteaday.co.uk/

But it doesn't come with any instructions, just a lists of 30 words to read in a minute. So it wasn't very useful, but got me thinking...

And I managed to get added to DDs IEP 'will be able to read 30 CVC words in a minute'. So buying the book did help :)

They tested her 4 weeks ago and she could read 15 CVC words in a minute. We're reviewing the IEP next week and they'll test her again. If her speed has improved I will be pleased - if her speed hasn't improved, at least we'll be in agreement that she isn't improving :)

What we'll do about it as a different question. You outlined some very good strategies above......

We'll see. She has slow processing. She has been able to read CVC words for a year - but 15 words a minute is not fluent. And not at all what you'd expect. But the important thing is that we're all in agreement that 30 words per minute is a sensible target.

WM - definately make the targets termly if not more frequent.

Prioritise by thinking what are the 3 areas which are impeding him the most - there really is no other way to choose. Also of course you will be doing stuff with him out of school.

They will do more with him than what's on his IEP. They have him for hours and hours every week - but they can't possibly explain to you everything they will do for him.

Discuss the reports with the school. Do they agree with the recomendations? Just because it's not on the IEP they still may be fully intending to implement them.... May just have forgotten to tell you.

Your relationship with the school is far far more important than what's written on the IEP.....

(Well these have been my experiences from 2 children on the SEN register at 2 schools...)

Ah yes Indigo, I have seen that site before as recommeneded on MN by mrz I think who is a (very good) primary school teacher.

Yes, your target is beoming specific and timebound.
Crucial point is ..

SHE WON'T IMPROVE WITHOUT AMPLE OPORTUNITIES FOR PRACTICING THIS SKILL.
Most schools don't provide this and kids having difficulty need to learn faster than other kids or the lag behind gets greater and greater. That is the essence of PT.

If I was doing PT with your child, I would be expecting that 15 cvc wpm to improve in a month and to improve every single day.

In pT we practice so frequently that the ruke of thumb is to seriously rethink any exercise where improvement not shown in 3 days.

but Moondog, my child has autism. I am to expect the gap between him and his peers to widen I have been told. Also 'his autism won't go away you know'.

Any protestation means I'm deluded. Any suggestion that they might not be doing things quite the best way, gets me professionals throwing down their pencils or walking out.

I don't know how to have a relationship with a school who are under the strong influence of these people. I've allowed almost a whole half a term of polite praise with very teeny suggestions here and there. NOT ONE has been followed up, even the easy ones like 'could the teacher give us the broad topics to be worked on so that we can prepare ds in advance with the vocab. Surely she knows what they are? At least one of them will be Christmas I suspect.

Honestly Stark ,just cut your losses and walk.
No point arguing and wasting your valuable energy on these people. Save it for more important things.

No ethical behaviour analyst will magic away autism or any other difficulty. What they will do is look at what needs to be learned and set about teaching it.

PT has at its core the principle that it is often us, the adults in charge who put a ceiling on a child's behaviour. When you apply behavioural principles, particularly in terms of free operant behaviour, there is no knowing how far you can go.

My dd still has language difficulties but she can read and write properly (in two languages), do maths, compose stories, write beautifully, tell the time, organise herself, write shopping lists, follw recipes and so on and so on and so on.

She wouldn't be doing any of that properly without me applynig what I know to her learning.

Can I ask something? When you are doing a task in a minute, do you repeat the same task again and again to see the improvement?

So for example, looking at some of the worksheets on the site Indigobell mentioned, do you use the same work sheet until a child has mastered something e.g. the simple arithmetic sums?

The working memory article is very interesting here as it kind of does the same thing but applies positive reinforcement after a baseline has been obtained to develop skills/engagement and then removes it to get a maintenance score. Then, baselines are taken again and are improved. When the working memory battery test is applied, improvements were also shown.

The research emphasises the limitations in the research hypothesis and how much more needs to be done, but as a method, I think it fits in very well with what Moondog has been saying. I'm just still not sure how you then apply these strategies across to something as practical as interaction.

Oh and someone has recommended Talkabout to me - anybody got any experiences with that?

Not sure if it is going to be any different at Posh School though. It's a different 'support team' but they are from the same LA. BUT, the school seem to have a different approach to working with parents so we'll see.

Can't find a house we can afford within walking distance of Posh School though

No Debs, you don't use the same or the child just memorising and not learning. This is why the SAFMEDS presentation is so good. Essentially a pack of cards that you shuffle so aalways random.

Most PT kits come with the smae sort of material to be learnt presented on different sheets so you can randomise.

I use this site for maths here as so many worksheets on each topic so i print a few off and do copies and use them.

Thanks Moondog. I'll have a look at that.

How do you transfer this to something as 'real life' as interaction? Can you give an example?

debs This stuff makes my head hurt and I'm just learning (with determination).

The number of things we do 1)Plan and present as many real life opportunity to practise in and then prompt where necessary. 2) Just know ds' targets inside out and upside down and seize each and every opportunity to measure how far ds has generalise.

So, we'd work on the memory thing in a controlled environment but then take the opportunity when on the bus, or in a park.

'Organises things' could be things like setting the table or packing a bag etc.

Because you know what the targets because quite frankly you are finding as many opportunities to practice as you can find, you will 'spot' any spontaneous real life application.

Thanks. So, for example, if I am working on DS' morning routine in school as one step towards organising himself. I could work specificallly on the basics - put coat away, put book bag away, put water bottle on table, do lunch choice.

Four things to do every morning. But he hates having a visual timetable. So do I do some cards with these four things on to practise at home and then see if he can do in practise with verbal prompts at school?

No one is doing this with him at the moment but I've been through the days of berating school wiih that. They haven't a clue what to do and don't have the resources to help.I'd rather do it until we hopefully get some hellp through a statement.

I suppose I concentrate on the specific skill rather than the actual tasks.

Can he do 4 'things' in order every day?

So, in the morning, before school, can he get up, make his bed, wash his face, come downstairs, get a bowl out of the cupboard?

I dunno. It is the skill of learning by one thing every day and then two things, building up etc. what he should do every morning.

(and once learned, and consolidated I would then sabbotage it i.e. move his coat hook whatever, so he can learn how to adjust when the environment adjusts but I know my ds can cope with that)

Do you do the school morning routine with him? If they can't they might allow you to!?

I don't use visuals, but then I have spent a lot of time practising listening to verbal instruction. You could spend lots of time at home getting him to learn to listen to and understand 4 things and then extrapolate that to the school situation!?

If you think visuals will help you might like to make them together with your ds rather than do it for him. They have to MEAN something to him, not be pictures that you have decided 'should' represent hanging your coat up. For all you know, a geometric shape might be more pleasing for him to look at and as long as he associates it with hanging up his coat then that is fine.

If he likes numbers you can teach him 1 - coat, 2 - sit down, 3 etc etc. and he can learn them by rote, or have cards with 1, 2, 3 on.

That's great Star ta very much. Yes, they do let me do his routine with him.

I like the idea of the four numbered things as he does like numbers and using other tasks to work on the same concept of remembering things in order.

Great - I will work something out for that!

In terms of using PT technology on more nebulous (but vital) con cepts such as inmteraction, I have been thinking about this a lot and feel this is a huge area for developmkent as behaviour analysts move on from working mainly with small challenging autistic children (new ones are training all the time and momentum is growing.)

You could count initiations in a time span playing any game such as snap or Simon Says or I spy.

You could count different sentence starters within a conversation.

I know one mother who has done some brilliant work with her child, where they have a sort of game where they fire different questions at each other. (You could use a visual marker to indicate child's turn to initiate and fade out use.)

I love (and have these great little Fun Decks which are packs of cards dealing with differnet concepts (eg, following directions, use of negative,s/plurals, finding same/different) which I plan to try as part of a PT activity. They could be used as SAFMEDS essentially.
There's probably stuff on the excellent SENteacher site that could be used too.

If you want to improve a skill generally just make sure you use it.

Maths?
Count out sweets or pieces of fruit when shopping.
Weigh ingredients to make a cake

Reading?
Make sure your child writes the shopping lists. With mine, I sometimes have told them that if they wirte it, I'll buy it. That makes a differnece.
Decant cereal into opaque containers and label so they have to read.
Fill out a calendar every day-put in planned events and make them responsible for remembering. My kids put down parties, pocket money days and so on.

Build in motivation.

Pictures are great and help so much but if you can move onto reading-as most kids can-then the world is your oyster.

I think Moondog that we're going to have problems accessing the expertise for ds. Using ABA/VB we have practically cracked social interaction (at least to the level his peers are), rigidity of thought (easy peasy and stupidly where people are most critical of ABA type approaches, we've cracked the behaviours, we've cracked the stimming (at least so it doesn't interfere with functional learning etc), he can engage, he can attend for hours - what's left is social communication?

If you know of any research projects where they are looking for someone like ds I'd seriously consider signing up.

ABA has created a market of children for whom there is now very little provision.