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Ideas for conversational turn taking.. Without hand signals ?

31 replies

TheArsenicCupCake · 28/10/2010 23:19

Anyone done this yet?

we are on a waiting list for SALT, but you know how it is.. And tbh apart from getting Ns Ms the wrong way around in some words, we do have a good vocab and clear speech..

However.. Ds just is not making any headway with turn taking, picking up on non verbal cues to share the conversation ( unless I hand signal).. Or using speech effectively to make a point or need known.. ( and forget about social chit chat).

I could really use some ideas ( google failed me so far).. That would work with his age.. ( apparently social stories are now for babies!)

OP posts:
auntevil · 28/10/2010 23:27

I have no idea. But i do have a friend (a dr) who has aspergers and i still use hand signals. We have a couple of signals as a group of friends that we all use. Unfortunately the one we still use most is the one for digging a hole! He is 35 btw

TheArsenicCupCake · 28/10/2010 23:35

:o aunt

that did make me smile !

everyone ( well close family and friends) do use hand signals with ds just naturally.. Where he is getting totally stuck and frustrated is with other people .. Including at school.

I mean how the he'll do you teach someone to see the cues if they don't see them iyswim? .. I'm stumped!

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StarkAndWitchesWillFindYou · 28/10/2010 23:40

Okay, just started this with me and ds, or me, ds and dh.

We get something with lots of bits (favourites are those tiny yoghurt covered berries) and put them in a pile. Then I say 'my turn' and take one, dh says 'my turn' and takes one, and then we both look meaningful at ds. It took a bit of prompting at first.

We are aiming for fluidity. We do it every day. When we say 'my turn' we touch our chests.

The idea is to later introduce 'your turn', but we figured we'd have to master 'my' first.

Sometimes I play it with just me and ds.

StarkAndWitchesWillFindYou · 28/10/2010 23:41

Oh and you can speed it up really fast.

my turn, my turn, my turn, my turn, my turn.

It's just the beginning. I suspect when I get my head round it I'll figure out how to expand it.

TheArsenicCupCake · 28/10/2010 23:46

Thanks star.. I'm going to re read this tomorrow and see if I can adapt it a bit for ds.. I'm sure it can be done. :)

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auntevil · 28/10/2010 23:48

Does he have any 1 person at school that he likes - reciprocal? I think it only takes 1 person to understand you - and cue you when in a group - to take some of the stress out of school. its also an age thing. There will be friends eventually who will help - or be as bad. TBH i know NT adults that really don't get when enough is enough.
I have been in a pub where this friend has tried to chat up a girl. Even my DH didn't notice the signs that any more and he would be wearing the drink. From distant memory - i don't think most teenage boys i met knew when to just go. Reading signs is a tricky old business.

auntevil · 28/10/2010 23:51

Nice idea Star - although i misread and thought that you and DH played it. [hgrin]

TheArsenicCupCake · 28/10/2010 23:56

There are two friends at school :) both are also on the spectrum !

He does go to a speech group once a week.. But he either doesn't talk ( because no relevant information is being offeredHmm). Or he talks way too much!
He actually managed to railroad a WHOLE 50 minute lesson by talking to the teacher about a theatre play he'd seen... And that isn't the first time!
( I have told school how to handle it.. So has ds1.. Who is in his final year at the school).

OP posts:
auntevil · 29/10/2010 00:07

I'm working on the constant drumming it into DS1. The thing is, i think he understands when he has consistently talked over me when i am talking to someone else - but after the event. I ask him if he knew why i had given him our signal. He stopped and thought and said because you were talking and i shouldn't have been. It doesn't stop him doing it though.
I also try to get him into the conversation if he is desperate to talk - but try to steer him to something relevant. Today he picked up on a small part of a conversation about the 1850s. it was about a gastro type pub that my uncle had lunch in. DS just couldn't pass up a history conversation! Unfortunately we got quite a lot about the fire of london Confused i managed to get him back on track with the eating part of the conversation !

moondog · 29/10/2010 09:43

Stark, that's exactly the sort of task you could measure in a Precision Teaching scenario.
The data would be ace!

StarkAndWitchesWillFindYou · 29/10/2010 09:55

Yes Moondog, as you can see I am getting there and learning loads.

It's hard though, as a parent and a lay person to figure it out, often, and to understand how the little things contribute to the bigger picture. Not at all hard to apply however. I just wish we had more support, especially as it is even worse than that as we have so much criticism from the Eclectic Extremists.

moondog · 29/10/2010 09:57

I know. Sad

Sounds like moving your kids elsewhere is best bet.

StarkAndWitchesWillFindYou · 29/10/2010 09:58

Meant to say, I'm sure you know this moondog but your influence has made more difference to ds' progress than anyone elses.

StarkAndWitchesWillFindYou · 29/10/2010 10:00

Same LA unfortunately Sad but posh school but with huge emphasis on 'inclusion' only possible because they work with parents it appears.

moondog · 29/10/2010 10:46

That's really nice to know Stark. Smile

What my mentor has taught me has done the same for my child.
I owe him so much, he is one of the most influential people in my life.

arses · 29/10/2010 12:18

Hi

Don't know your ds's age or much about him, so am sharing this in a generic sense.

In our secondary unit for kids with HFA, I use a therapy technique adapted from Michelle Garcia Winner (www.socialthinking.com).

Essentially, each student has a number of coloured squares of paper. Each student has their own colour that identifies them. In conversation, each new turn/topic change reqires a piece of paper to be placed on the table in front of the students. As you can imagine, initially, this has to be demonstrated/fully prompted by adults (we do a 2:3 ratio of adults/kids for this group initially).

Topics are generated by the students and written on cards and put into a box, then chosen at random. During baseline assessment on this activity, we make sure we see each student in conversation on a topic of their own choosing and in conversation on topics of others choosing.

Initially, adults model turn-taking, showing that generally, in a five minute conversation, everyone has a turn so that a range of colours are used.

What tends to happen at baseline is that topics chosen by a student (particularly those relating to their special interests) will tend to involve that student talking a lot about their interest with other students either remaining silent or interrupting/talking across them. However, it's really visually obvious if, say, John uses up all 30 of his red cards while no one else has gotten a word in edgeways or if he continues on in a line while two other students branch off and talk about something else, or branch off individuall to both talk about their own interests.

At the end of the conversation (typically about 5 minutes), the students look at the visual schematic of the conversation and we ask what's happened. This becomes the platform for talking about how to improve on the interaction.

I feel I'm not explaining this very well, but when I began this with a group of Year 9/10's last year, they very very quickly identified when people were talking too much on one topic, not listening, interrupting etc and showed beginning signs of 'real time' awareness e.g. one student said "oops, miss, I was about to crash into him there because he kept taking his turns and I thought it was my turn".

At the very, very basic level, the idea is just to develop an awareness of the need for equal/balanced turns in a structured group on a specified topic using visual and verbal cues, as evidenced by a) understanding and being able to explain why something didn't quite work or b) as above, identifying that you should do something differently.

When a few sessions have been done, then we look at individual targets within the group e.g. for x to increase turns on a topic that is not of interest by asking questions or for y to decrease turns on a topic of his own interest by making two comments and then asking a simple question of another group member e.g. 'what do you think'. Those were examples of high level targets for students who "got it", quickly.. another might have a very simple target to say one thing about a topic or, as was the case with one student, stay with the group and not wander off.

It can be very, very highly structured or quite fluid, depending on the students.. and the aim, really, is to increase awareness and some specific, set behaviours within a controlled environment. It is easily adapted depending on level e.g. for less conversational children, simply taking a turn in a circle to comment on something e.g. a funny object pulled out of a bag, or a drawing. We find text cues work well.

I have also used a similar yet different strategy to promote pairs of students to ask questions/answer questions by giving each two piles of different coloured cards e.g. blue and orange - blue with a question mark and orange with a speech bubble - showing them the "pattern" of what is expected e.g. blue, orange, blue, orange, blue, orange (two columns, side by side, works well). Again, with younger children, this is kept ultra-controlled so it can be used, say, alongside "Guess who" or another barrier game.. progressing (slowly) towards talking on a topic. It is highly dependent on the child how much structure needs to be put in place. I see the structure, in this type of activity, as a way of freeing up processing time to allow them to focus on analysing a real-time conversation, with cues gradually being removed.

Have no idea if any of this makes sense!

keepyourmouthshutox · 29/10/2010 12:31

arses - am going to try your idea re cards to do 'Simon say'. Am teaching ds the game but he does not listen carefully enough and won't be the one saying 'Simon says'. Will try to model the game via card idea so that very much controlled. Thanks.

Sorry for hijack.

StarkAndWitchesWillFindYou · 29/10/2010 12:45

Oooh, arses Thank you. You've triggered some helpful thoughts on how we can move on ds' turn taking.

At the moment it is only about taking turns to help ourselves to sweets but I can see how a question and answer session would be the next step (well actually I think there are a couple of steps in between, but still).

I can't quite work out the exact details of your coloured square topic thing (i.e. when does someone who is continually talking put another piece of paper down) but I'm fairly sure I can come up with my own 'rules' that provide a visual support for ds learning about conversational turn taking.

I suppose also, you could have a conch to stop talking over someone else.

TheArsenicCupCake · 29/10/2010 14:51

Just popped on to reread the thread.. There are some fab ideas that I can adapt.. Thank you so much!

Arses.. What you said does make sense :) and ds does respond well to visuals.. He is nearly 12 and in year 7 and has asd/as... Some of his areas of difficulty are much more classic autism and sone areas are much more aspergery... He did have language before the age of three but.. Because ds1 was very delayed with language ( was seeing a SALT for quite a while).. We just thought that ds2s language was okay .. But we may have missed a slight delay iyswim.Blush

ds1 15.8 is NT and all sorted out now with language.. Barring the teen grunts lol ... Where as ds2 is stuck with clear speech and no conversational skills!

< bangs head against wall>

OP posts:
moondog · 29/10/2010 18:15

If child is able, then videoing and playing back can be very useful too or using adults to set up 'poor communication' scenarios (eg crowding conversation, standing too close, not using eye contact) can work.
Kids then analyse video.

Works obviously with older more higher functioning children but incredibly fruitful in my experience and great fun.

Stark, if you email me I can send you some stuff and simple data collection forms on PT and something known as SAFMEDS which I have a feeling will be write up your street.
Computer crashed so have lost address list or would have sent them anyway.

StarkAndWitchesWillFindYou · 29/10/2010 18:42

Thanks Moondog I will do. I can practise the charting with the whole turn taking thing, and then branch into teaching to tell the time.

What I'm finding interesting (and hard) about this kind of teaching is that the programmes are really easy to run(although not for the lazy), - but as a lay person, the setting up and breaking down of the targets and figuring out what to measure and how REALLY hurts my head as well as 'why' and how it contributes to the bigger picture of learning.

I was due to go to the Carbone thingy next week as it is local to me. Childcare arranged and everything. Bloody school still hasn't got back to me with the dates of their stupid mass meeting and I've had to give those to appear flexible. Probably no places left now anyway.

arses · 30/10/2010 08:39

Hey Stark, it ain't just you.. and I am a professional (if not strictly in this field). I went to the Carbone training years ago and have some experience of this type of thing (about four-five years of running both ABA and PT programmes, but not designing them). I guess moondog has had very technical training so don't be too hard on yourself.

Moondog, in terms of designing some sort of tracking system for a conversational intervention, what would you do in terms of frequency? We have done peer-mediated video intervention in groups, too.. but I am never sure how to capture what happens here. In terms of awareness, the students (again, all older and higher functioning) become very adept at recognising and commenting on what's going wrong which is achieving
the aim, but how would you operationalise that? "X will identify an interruption in a videotaped interaction of a structured conversation with 2 peers and seek feedback from those peers on how they understood it to affect the interaction on 3 out of 5 available situations" was a SMART target last year, but I don't know how you are supposed to increase the frequency other than by manipulating the situation so that more interruptions are likely e.g. making the topic boring for X.

How we have tracked it is using an AP style system of ascribing a rating to it e.g. 1 - 4, based on an estimated percentage/qualitative judgement of correct trials. Obviously, I am working here with constraints of having to also train staff to do this while running the group and tracking 3 kids etc.

I can understand charting (if I have forgotten a lot of it) with reference to the types of discrete skill that I used to work on before e.g. receptive labels, RFFC, the big 6 or whatever, but how do you do this in conversation?

amberlight · 30/10/2010 09:23

People know whose turn it is using absolutely amazing automatic body language and voice-tone signals, at lightning speed. I know this, but I can't see or hear any of it, so I'm in deep trouble, (same as if I am blind and deaf in a way).

The trouble is, (speaking as someone who's on the autism spectrum), I can learn a technique....but the moment I'm in a different situation with different people in a different room, I can't transfer that info. Nor if someone does something unexpected that isn't in that set of rules. That may not be true for all of us, but it's true for many.

I've had to learn a completely different way to do this in random situations over the years.

What worked for me is
a) get a good simple book with pictures, on body language.
b) watch people use it. See how much of the Big Stuff I can see that says when people are bored (often they fold their arms tightly, they start tapping a foot). Those are often big 'Stop Talking' signals.
c) in a group conversation, I put my hand up and sort of do a small polite wave, whilst smiling, when I want to speak. Doesn't have to be right up in the air, but I still signal using a hand, and it works. I think there's nothing wrong with using it, even as an adult.
d) never ever talk for more than five sentences without giving the other person a go. If a sentence is too difficult to count, never for more than (say) 3 minutes at a time.

Practising how long that 'feels' can be tricky, but if necessary I ask the other person to tell me when they think I need to stop talking and start listening and explain that I want to be their friend but my brain isn't much good at timing things.

Listening is vital. Trouble is, all the time the other person is talking, I hear the first thing they say, then think...(e.g.)

"Heck, Fred's talking about the weather - what do I need to say about the weather - what do I know about weather - what words need to go in which order, what do I need to remember not to say...etc" and then I can't also listen to anything else Fred is saying.

So he'll get to the end of his bit, and has probably then talked about how his health is and when the bus is due and his holiday in France and how his cat has just died....and I then say "Yes, it's a lovely sunny day, but they're forecasting rain for Thursday" Blush

It just takes me So Long to think of the right words sometimes. And people say SO much in each bit of their conversation.

I also cope 'in real life' using "stock answers", which is naughty but a real 'lifesaver', e.g. "oh really?" "goodness me!" "yes indeed", etc. and "Not sure, but much to think about", which is a great one when they say "well what do you think of all of that then?" Grin Blush

Not sure that's a lot of answer, but it's some reasons and a couple of tips that have worked for me.

(It actually would really help if people said just one thing, then waited for me to say something back, patiently).

moondog · 30/10/2010 11:50

Arses (I do wish you would change your name m'dear!) this is the $64 000 question and one I am working on right now with a colleague!

I think this is where any profession dealing with communication gets challenged, as language becomes more high level. So much harded to track and define in terms of stuff that is quite easy at a more basic level (eg tacts/mands/intraverbals).

We are doing something similar to you with a child and putting our heads together on how to manage/organise/record. Your post has given me a lof of food for thought.

I am really interested in all your posts. ou sound like a great SALT and a really analytical thinker. Whoever has you to work with is very lucky.

Even the best measurement system is limited-it can't capture everything, and sometimes you have to give up as the effort in does not justify output.

(Although I would say the same thing about some early home based ABA programmes where sometimes there are thousands of discrete trials to achieve a handle of robotic gestalt learned phrase. Far better to use PECS where you get real language and intentional communication. I argue this point a lot with ABA consultants.)

One of the things we are measuring at the moment is the variation in sentence starters in a conversation. Video modelling helped this child see that starting every sentence with 'I' doesn't get you very far.Now it is great to see her actually stop and self monitor wnen an 'I' slips out.

moondog · 30/10/2010 11:55

Stark, if you are really interested, you can pay for and attend the MSc in ABA module on Precision Teaching at Bangor university.

The people who teach on it (including my mentor) are world class and do indeed travel the world teaching this stuff.
It would cost you a few hundred quid (same as a Carbone workshop) and involve you travelling up for a full day of lectures one day a week for about 6 weeks.

People come from all over to do this MSc.Some even fly from Ireland every week and driving up or taking train from London is par for the course.

Think of it-it really could change your life.
I could meet you too. That would be nice. Smile