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Ideas for conversational turn taking.. Without hand signals ?

31 replies

TheArsenicCupCake · 28/10/2010 23:19

Anyone done this yet?

we are on a waiting list for SALT, but you know how it is.. And tbh apart from getting Ns Ms the wrong way around in some words, we do have a good vocab and clear speech..

However.. Ds just is not making any headway with turn taking, picking up on non verbal cues to share the conversation ( unless I hand signal).. Or using speech effectively to make a point or need known.. ( and forget about social chit chat).

I could really use some ideas ( google failed me so far).. That would work with his age.. ( apparently social stories are now for babies!)

OP posts:
TheArsenicCupCake · 30/10/2010 22:08

Amber .. :) .. what you have explained .. Yet again .. Is what I can see ds2 doing.. Hense we take it easy at home and all use the hand signals.

Someone new comes into the home and ds.. Tries bless him.. But ends up monologing about one of his safe talk topics.

everything we have tried to teach him dies just straight out of his head and sometimes I think that he talks non stop to allow his mind to regroup and be in his safe space.. Because when he isn't doing this he is silent!
( which is then were I stop speaking and just use hand signals to make sure he's fine)..
But when this happens at school he is being seen as rude and non compliant.. He drive another teacher barmy because he was in a silent moment.. The teacher almost lost it with him ( according to ds).

Can I just say thank you to e eryone who has posted and really helped out x

OP posts:
debs40 · 30/10/2010 22:44

What an interesting topic. Very interesting posts for the SALTs and Amber too.

I totally see that generalisation problem with learning a new skill in the abstract and then applying it too Arsenic. We have the same problem with DS. I'm not sure how you surmount it save for making it very specific.

(BTW I use hand holding at home - seems to calm him as he waits for his turn!)

What is SALT advice about bridging the hurdle from these games to real conversations. Is it just a gradual build up of skills based on constant repetition. Do you also explain specifically what you are trying to achieve by these routines? Do you say to the children 'we are trying to teach you how to take turns in conversations and you can apply this in all conversations' etc and then build skills from small steps up?

moondog · 30/10/2010 22:49

I think this is where it all collapses Debs.This part not thoguht through.

I won't do any group work unless at least a couple of members of regular school staff are present and as we run it, I keep up discreet running commentary to them (if appropriate) or debrief afterwards on aims and how to generalise.

amberlight · 31/10/2010 08:52

TACC, that's exactly it...trying to keep up with a conversation where it could be on any random topic in the world is hugely scary for many of us. A bit like you hurtling down a rollercoaster at 300 mph, one that could go off in any direction at any moment and you haven't enough time to brace yourself for which direction's next. If I'm setting the direction and speed, I can cope.

We often learn to anticipate more and get better at it by building up a huge huge database of 'what went wrong or right when we tried X'. I'm still learning every single day. I got fairly good at talking to just one person at a time after 10 years of practising, then I coped OKish with pairs of people, so now I'm trying groups (which is sometimes disastrous and sometimes very scary if the group gets hostile, and always exhausting...but hey ho (as they say))

arses · 31/10/2010 09:12

Debs,

I am in the position of doing similar "social skills" groups with two groups of teenagers - kids with Specific Language Impairment and kids with Autism.

Typically, the students with SLI typically don't have difficulties with generalisation but, having had years of difficulty with communicating, do have social communication difficulties. Some have particularly compromised verbal ability which they are acutely aware of and some have extreme difficulties getting a message across relative to my students with autism.
I have had some of these students who also have subtle and not-so-subtle pragmatic difficulties, difficulties with understanding facial expression/intonation etc, picking up on cues, processing "real time" conversations etc. I would say their abilities are on a continuum.

The group of teens I work with who have ASD are mainly verbal and most (though not all) have age appropriate concrete language skills. Some of them are actually pretty good at conversations too. I can think of at least 3 of 15(ish) who would be unlikely to be "spotted" as having social communication difficulties by someone who knew nothing about the spectrum. Some have very limited social interest and much more impaired verbal ability. Some have impaired verbal ability and social interest. A very mixed group.

Working with these groups, there are stark differences in practice with reference to generalisation. The group with SLI don't need as much structure or explanation of aims as the group with ASD - typically, their groups are much more fluid and might involve each student having a specific target or targets related to improving their group communication e.g. make eye contact when trying to get someone's attention, write down a word/use a VOCA if the communication breaks down etc. They know them, they get talking, they track it. When a new target is set, they would receive a reminder if not using their target initially 'in the moment' but very quickly after 1 minute, after 3 mins, after 5 etc.. it's easy to reduce the cuing. In this group, the students are also quite good at tracking eachother's targets "in the moment" - so at the end of a 10 minute discussion about, say, a recent football game, each student is pretty good at giving feedback to their peers about what they could have done to help them e.g. "you needed to slow down, I couldn't understand you when you were talking about x" etc (albeit in less clear language than this!).

The group with ASD can also provide this type of feedback with the right structures but it is a good deal more complicated e.g. we are using visual cues as above and video feedback, too. It seems that it is just "too much" for them to try and work out what they are doing in the moment (as Amberlight so eloquently describes) and also think about what others are doing. And the peculiarities of each interactive, dynamic conversation changes the learning "load" so to speak so having a general awareness of a target just doesn't work as well for them as it does for the group with SLI: there is a lot more prompting/explaining/direction in this group.
In addition, even when it does work, peer-to-peer feedback needs to be carefully managed as it can be more abrupt and create tension where two minds don't meet so systematic rating systems tend to be more helpful than relying on student reflection alone e.g. giving eachother marks out of 5.

We use Comic Strip Conversations with both groups where there is significant "trouble" that we need to discuss - here, again, the differences between the groups are stark, as for the students with SLI, simply "working through" the conversation on paper is often enough to prevent a recurrence of the difficulty. Any minor change in variable (which, of course, is to be expected in something as dynamic as interaction) and the student with ASD can find it very, very difficult to apply.

Ideally, I would like to see the supports/structures for the group with ASD being gradually removed.. e.g. I am working towards them being able to, first of all, track their own contribution to a conversation with reduced visual cues and then track those of others, but I'll be honest with you, I don't know what is achievable in terms of generalising real changes to "online" conversation. If it were an ABA programme, I guess I would say that we are stuck at the teaching stage a lot of the time because we just can't control the variables of a real conversation well enough to do the systematised generalisation that works well with other skills. The vast majority of my students understand the mechanics of conversation quite well and can tell you all about the importance of taking turns etc... but that doesn't make it much easier in a real conversation. So, the lessons are really an ongoing lesson in the "exceptions to the rules" which are, well, pretty constant.

Even where students are showing good learning of the target e.g. realising that they were about to interrupt and telling me that they nearly did it, this reflection in itself detracts from their ability to listen to and contribute to the ongoing conversation which in itself reduces generalisability.

It makes sense: if you had to surgically analyse the minutiae of how/why a conversation was working, how would you manage it and communicating your message at the same time? This is one of the reasons that I prefer to take a "talk, analyse, talk" approach - we start talking, we keep talking, the videoing/visual cues go down but don't need to be talked about or reflected on until the conversation topic ends.

Will it make a long-term difference? I really, really don't know. I work hard at trying to make it do so, but I don't think anyone has the answer when it comes to conversation. I don't think we know enough and, as Amberlight suggests, there is an automatic integration of such an array of skills in typical adult conversation that is difficult to replicate in intervention.

Aside from all that, with the tools we have now, as moondog suggests, the key for both groups, in terms of generalisation, is follow through by regular school staff pretty much constantly: everyone needs to sing off the same hymn sheet, as it were.

StarkAndWitchesWillFindYou · 31/10/2010 09:35

arses My word that sounds complicated.

But there does seem to be some good things that are coming out of it. I mean, through measuring you seem to be clear WHAT a lot of the difficulties ARE and how this is different between different types of difficulty. Whilst it doesn't allow precise guaranteeed results planning, it certainly gives you a clue where to start.

Also, you CAN measure progress. You can't do it in as a precise way yet as you might like, but you can measure it.

So, it't quite promising really, if hard work.

You can analyse what the difficulties are, you can work on those areas and you can measure that there has (or hasn't) been progress.

I would guess however, that the level of ambiguity involved means to achieve this you'd have to be very knowledgable about your subject, hardworking and talented.

Some of the basic ABA stuff you really don't need to be. I'm quite alarmed to be honest that SALTs spend all those years training to lose all their skills in under 5s therapy handing parents sheets of nursery rhymes and getting children to say 'more' when they blow bubbles at them. WHY are these highly skilled people doing this?

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