Have a meeting with the LEA tomorrow about refused statement. Feel unprepared and worried!

[trunkybun]

I need HELP!!
I have been offered this meeting to discuss their refusal to offer a Statement and I presume to have an opportunity to change this decision before going to Tribunal.
I have copies of all the reports from Ed Psych, SALT, OT's etc (but these are the same reports I sent with my request for Statutory Assesment, so they have already seen them)In addition I have written a list of reasons why I feel he needs a statement and how I feel he will be affected if he doesn't.
The school agree that he does need one, primarily to assist with his social skills, writing, self management and sensory seeking behaviour. But the LEA seem to think that because he has made progress academically SA+ will be enough.
They have issued a 'Note in Lieu' which in itself is quite long and detailed and I would argue would need extra funding for the school to be able to comply!
I have spent hours this morning trawling through the old threads on MN regarding this issue and think now that my document is too wordy/emotional and not concise/punchy enough. Any advice at all, including 'killer' quotes/phrases would be much appreciated.
I have used the IPSEA and SOS SEN websites for advice, but have been unable to get anyone on the phone yet! Also spoke to Parent Partnership whose advice was 'try not to let them intimidate you' GULP!!

Thanks Moondog. I understand what you mean.

Out of interest, is there any particular training you would recommend for TAs in this situation?

So who's fault is it?

I have IEP issues, but the crux of it all is that the school have set 3 crap targets, and then I showed them the just 10 milestones that we would have expected ds to have met in half the time frame suggested by the IEP.

The response by EVERYONE:

1. 'That would be unmanagable in a classroom setting.'

Of course the ONLY answer to that is 'let our tutors in to show you how it can be done then!'

Which is where we are now.

and....
2) 'IEP targets need to be short and limited to 2-3 so that all staff can remember them'

FFS!

I think this is the difference between how the system could work best - SMART targets set by experts and worked on by skilled, trained and engaged staff - and how it actually works i.e. crap targets set by people who don't know what they're doing and implemented by people who are even more clueless about what is to be achieved.

How does progress get measured (let alone achieved) in those circumstances?

This is why parents demand to have their children work 1:1 with experts. In practice, substituting experts with TAs does not work because resources and expertise and training does not allow it to work. It's a fob-off, a get out clause to save LAs money.

It's like substituting police officers with CSOs or doctors with nurse practitioners. It only works for specific task with proper support and adequate training. Othrwise it's about replacing skilled people with unskilled people. It's about money.

Absolutely. I have a 'meeting' being organised due to my million complaints and hassling of all the organisations involved in ds' care.

What I want: Urgent eeting with the key people working with ds to agree the baseline, set targets and forward plan.

What am I getting: Faffing about, taking ages trying to get dates for all the professionals that have ever uttered ds' name, including the EP (never met him) 3 people from the autism team, the SLT and her boss, the class teacher, TA and Headteacher, TWO part-time SENCos, OT, parents, SEN Case Officer etc.

And I'm expected to be bloody grateful at thie extremely resource intensive meeting, which shows all the support and involvement ds is getting.

NO. This meeting is unnecessary. It isn't an outcome inself. It is an attempt to apportion blame on each other for my complaints. I don't want it.

I DO want a meeting. Me, Class teacher, TA, SALT and OT. Possibly the Autism Outreach if I really can't get rid of her, but that is it, and quite frankly resource intensive enough, but if we can spend a couple of hours setting the plan for the rest of the year as well as agreeing a communication strategy so all are kept up to date and informed that will be a)the end of my complaints, b)better outcomes for ds, and c)more efficient use of resources.

But nooooooooo, we have to have biggy bullying meeting so they can all go to the top and say how seriously they were taking me by adding as many senior people as they can who can then claim time back in lieu, and justify to their boses not doing anything because I am so unreasonable for not being grateful.

Sorry, what I meant by all that is ffs empower the workers on the ground to use their bloody brains and make some decisions.

I don't WANT out of touch senior people at the meeting. They can manage the people on the ground but I really don't need to know about it.

I certainly don't want to have to wait until the ther side of chritmas until these all so very important people find time in their diaries so that I can request they please use some evidence-based practice.

Just people on the ground fucking work together and work with parents.

And trunkybun, Hope it is all going well !

Okay
T'is all done. I'd like to say I was cool and aloof, took copious notes and gave them short shrift (whatever the @#!*% that is)
BUT...........
I was a bit wimpy, talked non-stop and left with a piece of paper with one name and a job title on it!![hblush]
But I think it went okay, there was only one woman, she asked me about DS, what my concerns were and what what further help I thought he needed. She seemed (whisper) human!! I was there for about 50 minutes.
I left her with some paperwork, she is going to liaise with her boss and get back to me.
I know I should probably have not been so open but I just played it as I read it at the time. I do appreciate everyones help though and no doubt will be asking for more advice soon[hgrin]

Yes Stark, you have summed it up basically.

Debs, what works is showing peopel how to measure.
So in terms of Stark's target re turn taking, unless this is measured ,then it's not worth paper written on.
As I keep saying Precision Teaching strategies allow this.

You answer your question here:

'I think this is the difference between how the system could work best - SMART targets set by experts and worked on by skilled, trained and engaged staff - and how it actually works i.e. crap targets set by people who don't know what they're doing and implemented by people who are even more clueless about what is to be achieved.'

I think in terms of my profession ,a lot of SALT target too vague and woolly and frankly bleeding obvious to be of use.

We're good at assessing, great at telling you what is wrong but poor at setting up measurable ways to improve. Precision Teaching has helped me improve as a SALT 1000% in this respect.

The other issue is that people are so bogged down in an insane amount of paperwork. You wouldn't believe me if I told you how much admin. time is spent (non negotiable) for every 30 mins of face to face time, you really wouldn't. It's beyond insanity.

Trunky, sounds good. Plenty of human peopel in this filed. One woman is best of all actually, as the more peopel you involve in your child's life, the less tends to get done, just lots of peopel attending useless meetings, writing useless reports that never get read and generally arse covering.

Be warned.

Well done Trunky!!! Sounds like progress - hopefully.

I agree with you Moondog. The more people involved, the more people to hand behind or use as an excuse to do nothing e.g. 'you don't need me, because ASD outreach will do that' etc etc.

I totally see what you're saying. I just really don't know how to achieve it on an individual level. I mean if SALT targets are likely to be woolly, staff untrained, and 1;1 wasted , how do I, as a layperson, try and make this better? If arguing for direct involvement of a SALT won't help, what will make targets SMART and work productive?

Well you could go through them one by one and say

How are you going to measure this?

One of my fave people Roger Bass who has written a superb (but very ranty) demolition of American special education called 'Amy's Game' recommends asking the following 5 questions:

What did yuo teach my child?
How did you teach my child?
How did you measure my child's learning?
What's Plan B?
Do the goals lay foundations for more complex skills?
(Very important last one as most targets picked out of thin air and do not work towards next logical aim. That is why behavioural assessment tools such as ABLLS and VB MAPP (slightly newer) so great. They tell you what to work on now and what to work on next.

My DD goes to a special school.

She is in a class of 10 with a Teacher and 3 TAs.

They have 3 SALTs based on site, but they use the school as their base and also work in other areas.

The way they work is this:

The SALTs share the classes out for class-based communication groups. They do a communication group, during which time they model techniques for the Teacher and the TAs.

The Teaching staff then use those techniques for the next fortnight, but can go to the SALT if they have a specific issue.

Two weeks later, the SALT does the next communication group.

Alongside this, if the teaching staff or parents have any specific concerns, they can contact the SALT for advice, and if there is a specific issue such as articulation, the SALT may do some 1:1 therapy.

Moondog can I chase you up on the Elklan point? This is what SALT has recommended for training of TAs working with DS. Is there something better?

I expect that they are being offered this training because it is either already within resources or they have already completed their training in this.

I know that the approach offered to meet ds' needs is ALWAY the approach that they have been trained in and any deviation is always resisted.

Well to be fair Stark, any public service provider has to by defnition offer a set package. There just aren't the resources to tailor make specific packages of intervention for individuals.

A SALT could also argue that given the very high levels of staffing in special education (ie very often a 1:1 or the sort of set up Lougle provides, the onus is on these people to provide the individual touches.

What is unacceptable is to not engage with a parent working very hard at home on evidence based strategies to help her child. I wouldn't get involved in anything I felt was a bit flaky (eg vitamins, reiki and so on) beyond nodding politely but I and I think most of my colleagues would happily work with people doing the sort of thing you are.

God, it is fantastic when you get a parent who really makes an effort. i work with so many who think they need to do nothing, just sit back as the SALT magic wand is waved.

Debs, I really like Elklan. It is good and represents a coherent strategy to support and train up assistants working with kids with comm. difficulties. It would be even better if you added a coherent measuring/ data taking strategy. in the places I work, that is what we do.

Check out the website. Very user friendly (unlike PT one)
I wouldn't presume to tell you what is right for your ds as I don't work with him snd it is not appropriate to do so on an internet forum.

Give it a go, see what you think.

'Well to be fair Stark, any public service provider has to by defnition offer a set package. There just aren't the resources to tailor make specific packages of intervention for individuals'

That's not the issue though is it? As a truth it is fine, and very nearly acceptable. What isn't acceptable is selling the standard package AS IF it is designed specifically to meet the needs of an individual.

They're afraid Moondog because they haven't got the faintest idea what I am going on about and what I say can't be arguemd with.

Their only defence is to deliberatly make things as wooly as they can, and contrive to give me an audience as rarely as possible so that there is no accountability and to wish away the months until they no longer have ds on their caseload.

This situation is ridiculous. I've read all their policy documents and do you know what protocol is for dealing with a difficult parent, hell bent on delivering a therapy you don't agree with?

Treat them sensitively, ask for evidence and show them how they can test that what they are doing is working!

FFS!

I agree Star there is that misrepresentation of 'this will suit your dc best' when they mean 'this is all we've got/know what to do'.

Moondog, yes quite understand. I wouldn't expect you to advise etc. Just you did say you didn't think Elklan was appropriate for ASDs and DS is a 7 year old Aspie so I wondered if that was a problem.

Am going to follow this as have asked for regular meetings at school as basically I have no idea how there teaching ds he is at speech unit and while I feel unit is right place and that they will try do their best for ds

I have no clue how I can carry this on at home often get one or 2 lines in his home school book and print out what they done each week with hisbits underlined so have vague idea what but not how

which considering ds has other diffculties beyond speech has eds which affects quite badly pd so struggling yo hold a pen let alone write ds us year 1

Stark, I do agree with you (ad you know) particulalry this bit
'That's not the issue though is it? As a truth it is fine, and very nearly acceptable. What isn't acceptable is selling the standard package AS IF it is designed specifically to meet the needs of an individual.'

You have been treated appallingly, no doubt about that.

I do sometimes like to lob in opposing view, as I do to myself to keep myself objective, as much as possible.
(In same vein, have just bought a book in town on a political stance i disagree with wholeheartedly, in order to try and see other view.)
Peasant, massive issue is no real parent engagement-helping parents to help their kids.

I got caut in trap of thinknig 'professionals' knew what they were doing. Biggest mistake of my life. But I think if it doesn't sound pompous, I have been able to take the reins as I understand this field. I have been in it for 15 years.

I understand language and now I have my MSc in ABA, I understand how to teach anything. I clearly remember the moment I sat in a lacture thaetre and it struck me like a thunderbolt that this stuff I was learning would not only help with my work but with my own child.

From that day on I took complete control (happily have lEA completely on board but not without going throguh sherr hell first) and all is roaring ahead full blast.

I wake up every day excited about every child I work with, including of course my own. They cna learn so fast. The sky is the limit it really is!

Debs, I don't know. I don't believe in labels really. It is what many behaviourist describe as an 'explanatory fiction'. In other words, difficulties in one area are given a label and are then a condition.
So, issues with reading mean you are 'dyslexic', those with co-ordination mean you are 'dyspraxic'. One has 'processing issues' and so on and so on.

It is dangerous as it lays blame on child as opposed to teaching practices.

One of my heros, Michale Maloney (google him) says

'If the child hasn't learnt, the teacher hasn't taught'. That's all you need to know.

Give Elklan a go. You will know after it what diference it makes. Even if nothing, you will learn useful things and make good contacts.

I don't care if anyone is 'ASD' or whateve,r I just care about helping them leanr what they need to know. And, what is good for kids with ASD is good for any kid.

Yep it's got worse as now ds is in unit has transport there is no teacher/parent interaction and finding that hard as I'm used to being in controll knowing what proffesionals are doing with my dc

had this out with physio yesterday myself ,the physio and orthtics met up agreed on things ,Then 2 days later get informed they had talk after and now were following differnt plan .Gave put foot down said no as was not involved till I hear why I'm not even going to try it

Communications between ALL the people and the different professions and all dispersed in different locations is a real problem.

Yup we have 15 differnt ones involved over 6 hospitals plus school I want to scream somedays

Agree with all you say Moondog and you are, as ever, a very insightful poster on these issues.

Was just pursuing the point you made about Elklan and ASD children, as I don't know anything about what is good or helpful and I don't want DS's formative years to be a testing ground for crap strategies from people who won't admit they don't know it all and who care less. I have literally met one person who gives a toss - the community paed and she is not equipped to deal with this.

I want to take the reins too, but this seems like a mamouth task and I don't know where to start without help or throwing loads of money at experts to advise - and Ive already spent nearly £2000 on that and we haven't got to statementing stage yet.

I am capable of doing this myself but, as I have said, I have taken my eye off the ball with the SA process happening at the same time as my PhD submission and DS2 starting school. I will get back to it but as there is literally not one soul here in deepest Wiltshire who knows what the hell they are talking about in terms of autism, I will have to identify strategies myself, so forgive the intense picking of the brains!!

Gosh, no Debs, not at all.
Fire away.
This stuff is my passion and I am glad to help.
I had to learn the hard way (and it was a very hard way-for various reasons it nearly broke me completely and I do not use that term lightly).

It enrages me to know that such bollocks is talked and that so many people are busy busy busy donig things that make no difference whatsoever.

It is a complete Emporer's new clothes scenario and yet it would be so simple to get right at a fraction of the cost.

I often think that 'special education' of the sort practiced in the supposed bad old days of the 60s and 70s is vastly superior to the stuff churned out now.

Peopel learnt useful things, they didn't spend their lives wasted in sensory rooms or with their appendages in foot spas or being dealt with by people too busy filling in forms and generally arse covering to get on with anything of worth.

What is the answer?

Acquaint yourself with the law so you can argue your corner. means hours spent reading tedious documents but so be it.

You need to be able to fight with their weapons. For example, how can places reject ABA when the evidence base is huge and when it endorsed by NHS Evidence (scores of examples cited) and the Royal College of SLT?

Insist on SMART targets and at every stage ask

1. what is the evidence for the approach used
2. how will progress be measured

Insist on being informed at every opportunity. Write in that school/home book. Actually that is one of the most important things to do-shows staff you are on the ball. Write every day,.doesn't matter what.

Spend time on MN. A fantastic source of insightful guidance. Can't be bettered.

Learn about evidence based practice. In that I would put stuff like Precision Teaching (Eschleman and Binder particularly), Intensive Behavioural Intervention, PECS, Headsprout Reading Basics, Direct Instruction (partic. work of Michael Maloney and Zig Engelmann. Google Project Followthrough if you want to blow your mind. DISTAR products.) Active Support (for older peopel with more complex needs)

Many professionals talk of 'supporting' and 'facilitating' and 'raising awareness'

Bollocks.
Just an excuse to do nowt.

If there is a problem it needs fixing, not having 'awareness' of it 'raised'.

Finally try and keep calm and courteous. With the exception of cases such as Stark's, people are doing their best with what they know, however poor their knowledge base. They are shitting themselves because they know they don't jhave the answers.

The only way to work is collaboratively and honestly. None of us know it all.