What do you say....

[eidsvold]

I was waiting at the customer service desk and a woman came up to Dd ( sitting cutely in the trolley) and began chatting to her and smiling and asking dd for a smile. Often have older ladies ( middle aged etc we know the type) smiling at dd. I felt smug ( really not the word I want but will do) that she felt my dd was gorgeous enough to chat to!!

That quickly changed when she said to me - I love these children ( emphasis on the these) They are always soooo HAPPY!! and then she walked away. I was so stunned and brought down to earth with a thud. Despite common generalisations - Dd is not always happy - in fact she can cry and shout up a storm. She just does not really do it in public yet.

As I walked away I thought I should have said - what children?!?! and felt disappointed that she stopped to say something to dd because she was one of 'those' children. I surprised myself by how annoyed I was at the woman......

my god scooby do you hit her back with it?

she probablyis soupy - she goes off to sleep so we just leave her to shout and get it all out.. now she is sleeping peacefully - smiling of course!!

Scooby - WHAT??? How did she react?

fio2 - it happened years ago and I will never forget it. I gave the women the most aggressive look imaginable - I nearly bared my teeth - at the same time trying to shield this little girl from realising what the woman was wanting to do and steer her out of the way. It disturbs me to think of it even now. If I hadn't been there this old woman would certainly have had a sneaky and vicious go. Wicked.

oh I would have gone ballistic scooby .... I would have lost it for sure... not sure I would havce hit her back but i can do the most withering excuse me ( years of practice teaching teenagers.....) - that is loud, very indignant at the same time.... the whole store would have known what that woman did. I admire you for just doing what you did rather than making a scene....

scooby that is one of the most apalling examples I have ever heard of regards thoughtless / downright evil responses of people to special needs children.
However each time I hear on mumsnet about something horrid a stranger has said to, say, Jimjams' little boy I have wondered if the insulting person themselves might have some kind of learning difficulty .
What do you think?

My husband poked a man very hard in the chest once in M&S!! He had said that our son was stupid because he was flicking some packaging or something. Hubby not at all like this normally and it was totally reflex but made us laugh afterwards, lucky it was M&S or could have turned nasty......!!!

i just run people over with the buggy, works very well.

Hey Mis Dee I do that!!
Felt outraged at story Scooby, don't want to think about how I would have reacted it gets me wound up but it would have turned nasty.

Nah Jasper they're just ignorant.

My friend with a ds child was standing in a PO queue when preggers with her ds2 and a charming old peson came up and said she shouldn't have allowed the first one to be born and why hadn't she got rid of it.

I couldn't believe it at the time (ds1 was small and blended in) - I can now. I just walk off these days (usually muttering under my breath) Of I give them one of my looks.

Blimey jimjams, I can't beleve that happened, wow, is that what's out there waiting for me???

hope not thomcat!

Me too. Hopefully attitudes like that will die with them.

along the lines of what jimjams has posted re: getting rid of it - lots of people we encounter when they realise or find out about dd ask if we knew beforehand about her down's syndrome - and when I say yes - they are very surprised that we went ahead and had dd anyway.

I have also had a good friend shocked when I have talked about having no 2 - she is very surprised that we are planning to have another child... When she expressed that to me I asked her why we wouldn't have another child and she just alluded to dd's heart condition and her special needs that would take time from another child and was it really fair on them?!?!?

I think it was more the idea - what if we had another child with down's syndrome but I think she realised in my tone of why not?!? that that answer was probably not a good idea.

Wouldn't another child take time away from dd? See this is what I mean about people not understanding we love our SN children as much as any normal children. But anyway I've caused enough of a punch up on behav and develop so I'll lie low and keep my head down. (I would have wanted to throttle said friend though!)

that day I could not be bothered confronting her to get to the bottom of it - we don't see them very often any more and it is me that makes all the effort so I just left it...

I agree with everything you have said on the thread in b and dev.... Even I could not understand fully your position as I have no experience of autism and know very little about it.. I do know having dd has made me even more aware of sn kids and the struggles they and their families face to achieve even 'normal' day to day things....

I can empathise with the pity and the difficulty in having a normal conversation where you do not feel like you need to explain everything ten times and then educate them all the time...

I think your first sentence sums up the problems really.

And your second sentence makes sense as well. From reading about the kind of things that affect you I think there are many similarities between autism and DS when facing the world in general. I guess the big difference is that DS is more visible. I have the advantage whereby I'm not attacked by vile old ladies with umbrellas, but maybe you get less tutting- I don't know. The fundamental problem seems the same though- just trying to get people to realise that this child is as important to us as any normal child. And I still maintain that this is the big gap in understanding that has led to so many of my relationships with normal parents either breaking down or never getting going.

should be doing asda shopping rather than mumsnetting it, but just wanted to throw in my 20 week scan experience this time round - I asked the ultrasonographer to have a really good look at this baby's heart as dd with DS was born with a hole in the heart which wasn't spotted on u/s... she apologized and said what a shame that was because then we could have chosen to end the pregnancy. I muttered something about how we would have kept her anyway (gracious, aren't we? ) but was so floored I couldn't think of anything else to say. I have always had quite strong feelings about terminating for more 'minor' stuff like DS so this was quite insulting to myself and dd.
I mean, this was the woman who routinely scans all pregnant women at the hospital.. urgh. Still feel like kicking myself for not saying anything else to her.

Eh??????????????

My God!!!! That sent shivers down my spine. How completely horrible for you.

What a cow.

And the thing is its deemed OK to say that sort of thing. This is exactly why so many friendhips have faltered. The gap is just too large.

I can probably count myself lucky that she didn't offer to terminate dd's life there and then!

I was going to say I would probably have said smething similar to you- but I would have loved to say "would you like me to bring her in so you can kill her now". Just a little reminder to the woman that we were talking about someones child! God almighty.

I'm still horrified that my friend with a DS child had to cancel the operating theatre 3 times. She kept being booked in for a termination even though she said right from the beginning she would be keeping her son.

I am beginning to think I am going to be a nightmare when confronted with some of these situations - would have said it quite loudly 2under2... particularly given that she is in the position she is in... I would have then told her what I thought of that opinion and how irresponsible it was of her.......

I am so pleased our fetal cardiologist was brilliant - although I have heard other woman express different thoughts.... but he did offer us the amnio when the fetal cardiac scan confirmed her heart condition ...I straight away said no - we had agreed on that no matter what prior to any of this... and he said if it was going to make no difference to the outcome then not to bother.....quite repsonsible I thought... I was prepared to have to fight not to have one..

I also - know i have said it before - but am surprised as the no. of people who ask if we knew before hand about dd's down's syndrome and did I have a triple test and when told yes and then no - they seem a little surprised that we had dd....( particularly those at a heart/lung specialist London hospital who would deal with a no of children with Down's syndrome - and who inthe past had a bad rep when it came to treatment of said children)

I know of a woman who like your friend jimjams - her baby was diagnosed with down's syndrome in utero and has lost a lot of friends and family over their decision to have their baby anyway.

Oh2 under2 I am just getting angrier the more I think about it....

No need to be hard on yourself.. it is when you walk away and the shock subsides that you think of all these things to say.....

But thanks I will use it if it happens to me when next pregnant and having 20 week scan.....( tell the medical professional it is from both of us!!)

Actually if I was you 2under2 I would write an official complaint expressing your concern at her lack of professionalism... to the CEO of the hospital trust and cc it to the clinic manager... that is just not good enough.....

Sorry having my own little to do with local hospital.... I figure they have certain standards they must uphold and that is not good enough.... we should call professionals to account for unacceptable behaviour..

Oops sorry soapbox time again......

I'm sorry 2under2, and jimjams, that you are so offended by the suggestion that you might have chosen a termination if you had known about your childs condition in advance, but as one who grew up with a disability, can I put my oar in ??

I know how difficult it is to grow up being different. Throughout my childhood I was embarrassed or upset by treatment I received from other people (adults as well as kids, tho the kids could be especially cruel). I also remember all too well the upset and pain of all the hospital appointments, and repeated surgery, and the sheer boredom of waiting to see specialists etc that went on.

Despite it all I went on to get a degree, and a career. Even as an I.T. professional I got some negative responses (like a boss who wouldn't let me work on an exhibition stand, in case i put potential customers off), and some "positive" ones, like customers who thought I did an outstanding job, especially in the light of my special circumstances.

Anyway, when I became pg (aged 37) I made it quite clear to dh that if scans showed any abnormality, I would terminate (he agreed). Because I didn't want to put another person thru what I had gone thru in my life. I don't suggest anyone may love a SN child any less.

But I value quality of life over just life. No matter how hard you work to protect your child, and love him, there will be times when your child's quality of life will be compromised.

That is why some of the health professionals (and other people) will suggest that you may have wished to terminate.

Oh and I know you believe that attitudes to SN children and adults should change, but in reality, there will always be those who can't treat us without being patronising/cruel/overcompensating/etc, because there will always be people in the world who are not bright enough to know better/generally cruel/inconsiderate/or even too considerate. You can't change human nature, no matter how much you teach or legislate.

Sorry if I sound preachy, I don't mean to, just wanted to put the other point of view.

love to all, see my next posting