Discipling an autistic child - how do you do it?

[Eulalia]

I?d like some advice about how to discipline my autistic child. Ds has just turned 4 and has actually improved greatly in his behaviour towards others recently. He went through a phase of hitting and pushing other children but since his speech has improved this has abated. However he still picks on his sister aged 15 months. Unfortunately she is at that stage of getting into everything and the two of them often clash. I try to keep them apart as much as possible but dd wants to involve herself in what he is doing. Ds won?t play with her but tends to ignore her (at best!) or push her away. Sometimes after reminding he will get her a toy instead. He also bosses her and is always saying ?don?t do that? and will pull or push her away (it?s difficult as she is often doing something she shouldn?t be!) In general he seems to just find her annoying most of the time. I know this is the case with most siblings but I don?t know how to discipline him. I tend to give him some allowances for his autism but sometimes it just looks like he is being plain horrible to her. On occasions she?ll just be standing doing absolutely nothing and he will push her. I don?t understand what is driving this. I try to give them both lots of hugs and attention.

I?ve read a few books and they stress tactics such as avoidance and prevention which I practice up to a point but it is nigh impossible to foresee every event. The books I?ve read don?t discuss the conflicts that arise between an autistic and non-autistic sibling. I try to explain but it seems like he doesn?t listen and often he?ll just make a shouting ?ahhh? noise back at me if I try talking to him. Smacking I think makes him realise he?s doing something naughty but I am not really happy with doing this. I am obviously protective of dd. One time I had strapped them into the car and came out of the house and found ds banging dd on the head with a toy and I just took it out of his hand and banged it onto his head and said ?that?s what it feels like!? Is this a totally childish response? I am supposed to be going on some sort of a course but this isn?t offered till his formal assessment in October. In the meantime I am muddling through.

I don?t think he?s any more badly behaved than a normal high-spirited 4 year old and in some respects he?s very good but I need some suggestions on how to cope with bad behaviour and if this is truly ?bad? behaviour and how much of it is autism and how much naughtiness. Thanks.

[Jimjams]

Strict boundaries. Decide what you won;t absolutely tolerate and then stick ridgidly to those. For example of ds1 hurts ds2 on purpose for no reason he is straight out of the room and the door shut for 10 seconds. He doesn't understand what he has done, but he does know that he shouldn't do it - so he now knows the boundaries (and doesn't do it). On the other hand if ds2did something to upset him first- like poke him - i assume the autistic viewpoint (ie that poke could have really been offensive to him and tell him not to hit, move him away but don't actually tell him off and tell ds2 to leave him alone).

Hitting him back probably doesn't work very well for autis as they won;t understand what relevance it has to their behaviour iyswim.

Social stories can be very good for verbal autistic kids. You can buy a book with loads ready made, or you can make your own up (once you've seen how they're done).

If the course is Earlybird- it is is very good at giving tips for dealing with troublesome behaviour- whilst remaining sensitive to the problems the auti kids face.

He may just push her because she's standing too close, or maybe to him she smells to him or something. (not saying she's smelly just that smells can be a problem for autistic children) My friend has a problem as her autistic daughter can not stand loud noises- every time her sibling shouts she screams and pushes him. It's difficult becuase she really hates the noise. She also hates smells. yesterday her brother did his first ever poo in the potty and she immediately threw up! No idea what can be done about that- any ideas I'll pass them on!

Sorry not much help. But I was given some very useful advice from an AS adullt who runs behaviour programmes for autistic children and adults. He said if they start to misbehave then you need very tight and very firm discipline so that they understand the boundaries. In turn that reduces anxiety. i tried this with ds1 when we had a bedtime problem and it did work.

[Eulalia]

Thanks jimjams ... behind as usual.

I may try the social stories. I think I find it hard to be strict and consistent when I do all the childcare 24/7. I am practically a single mother as although dh is around he's always busy or tired in the evenings and every weekend he's busy working on the house. I am amazed that ds is as well behaved as he is. Its just this thing he has with dd but it could be tied to jealousy. He's so much better with other children and will often fetch toys for them even unasked but will only reluctantly do it for dd. He used to give her kisses when she was a baby but won't now. It makes me a bit sad but I guess he won't always be like this.

I think his sensititvies lie in temperature rather than smell. He has to have his food luke warm or even just cold.

I guess things maybe will get better when dd is talking - I know she is at an annoying age in some respects but in others she's really cute. Anyway I am rambling now ....

[Jimjams]

ds1 is the same- wrt temp and smell. He's not particularly bothered by smell but all food has to be cold!

I agree that if you are with them all day you need to cut yourself some slack! Jealousy is a tricky one as you can't do the usual sort of discussing it etc. DS1 is getting bettwe with ds2 but does tend to ignore him most of the time. Carry on with the hugs and attention and hope it improves I guess- and if you find something that works let me know

[tamum]

Eulalia, I don't know if this will help or just seem to trivialise your problems (which I certainly don't mean to), but honestly every word of your description of your ds's reaction to your dd would have applied to my non-autistic ds's reaction to my dd at that age. The age gap was the same, and his behaviour was the same. If it's any remote comfort, I would say a lot of your ds's behaviour could be "normal" (i.e. naughty) 4 year old behaviour. I completely understand what you mean because your instinct to protect your dd overrides everything, doesn't it, in the heat of the moment? I have no idea about discipline. I don't think I handled it very well, and that was without your extra worries. My ds just grew out of it really and got used to his sister. I hope yours does too. Good luck!
P.S. Hi jimjams!

[Eulalia]

tamum - yes I do feel he acts much the same as a normal child regarding sibling rivalry and thanks for your reassurances. However he is a bit obsessive about dd doing certain things becuase it falls outwith his comfort zone. Also he tries to deal with the situation rather than telling me that she is doing something wrong. some of the differences are quite subtle and you may not notice them at first.

maryz - yes I think a lot of it is that she is an inconvenience and that she just gets in the way. That is a good point about being specific about what he is doing wrong.

Today I met my friend who I fell out with over ds's behaviour a few months back. ds was fairly good although he did slap her son (aged 2.5) across the face when he was sitting in his pushchair! (they were fighting over a toy). I was away changing dd's nappy - it wasn't hard apparently but I felt awful (particularly if it gives my friend more ammunition to have a go). He seems to find it hard to understand that things belong to people. All I can do is apologise for his behaviour.

On a more postive note we went to the city centre today for the first time in months. I last went around April when I used the double buggy (he is too big/old for it now) So this time ds walked and coped quite well - a bit of walking in front of people and getting in the way but he did really well with road crossings.

And he wore his new pants! Although at the moment he is totally naked - I think he'd like to be naked all the time

[Eulalia]

Sorry to keep banging on about this but I had a bit of a row with my mum today. Ds pushed dd I think becuase she touched something he didn't think she should be touching. At 16 months she is into everything and obviously some things he knows she shouldn't be doing and he is always seeimg me pulling her away. The main problem is that he tries to be the adult and deals with situations by either pulling or pushing her. No matter how many times I tell him not to he still does it. He was copying my friend at the weekend who was telling her children off by going up to them repeating what she was saying and waving his finger in their faces. This was even to a boy much older than him.

To be honest sometimes I feel like I don't like him and I feel guilty about this but it pisses me off that he irritates so many others and seems totally self centred. However on the whole his intentions are 'good' in that he is trying to stop others from doing things which he thinks are wrong. Other times he does push dd for no apparent reason and takes toys off her and sometimes I do snap and give him a smack on the bum.

Anyway to return to what I was saying my mum saw him pushing dd and she said "don't you discipline him for doing that?" and I said that I had tried but he just gets confused and thinks it is Ok to smack and will smack dd himself. She said that he'd not interfered with her china cupboard since she smacked him once so he had "got the message" then but I think its just because he's past that stage of touching everything and isn't interested in her bloody cupboard! She also said about smacking in dangerous circumstances but I've never needed to do this. Anyway these are bad analogies because these are fairly obvious cause and effect kinds of discpline which he doesn't need (he's not really naughty in this sense).

My mum just thinks he is asserting himself and that a good smack would solve everything and show him who is boss. I just think its probably making things worse the times when I do it (usually when I am tired or at the end of my tether).

Anyway he starts nursery next week so some time away may be best for all concerned.

Sorry this is so long, just needed to rant for a bit....

[Jimjams]

Could you buy a book for your Mum to read? The chantalle kira whatever (sorry bfeeding and can't remember name- it's on nightmare social situations thread in behav and develop) book is a good book to browse- and really quite insightful. Learning to live with high functioning autism by Mike Stanton is short and an easy read as well.

[aloha]

Eulalia, I'd just ignore your mum totally as I think she is completely wrong (and really mean too, to be honest). If my mum hit my son I would go BALLISTIC!! Not that she ever would, mind you. If anyone hit my kid they'd not see him again. I do think his behaviour is normal. A friend of mine (very normal now!) was found at the age of three sneaking up on her baby brother with a knife! Of course he finds her annoying - she gets in his way, pinches his stuff and gets him into trouble. I am NOT saying this means it is OK for him to hurt her, of course it isn't, I just mean it's normal. I agree with Jimjams. Brief time-outs are the way to go IMO. And they have to happen the instant the bad behaviour happens with a very brief and simply phrased explanation of why ('No biting' 'We don't hit/kick/hurt'.
Personally, I also think it is normal for older children to be bossy with little ones - my friend's four year old thinks my ds (nearly two) is her personal plaything but thankfully he just adores her so it's OK. He's only copying and that's also very normal, natural and healthy. I suppose that's why I don't think smacking/hitting/ etc can ever be helpful in these situations where he loves to copy adult behaviour.

[Eulalia]

Yes jimjams I really need to get some reading material and shove it in front of my mum!

Thanks aloha for bringing me down to earth. My mum is Ok really - I never saw her smacking him regarding the cupboard otherwise I wouldhave said something. I do have to respect her house though. She says herself she isn't understanding and finds it difficult to deal with this condition. Broken legs are easy as they can be seen.

It's just a question of balancing all the time - making allowances for ds but not letting dd get the short straw. I guess I just suffer from what all parents do - whatever you do it will be the wrong thing!

However you made me think - if he is so keen to copy what adults do - surely it is better for him to have a good role model of good behaviour. I also forget that with him being autistic can mean that he is actually very 'good' at times - he isn't sneaky and doesn't whine or try to get round me like some children do. It's much more black and white.

Anyway better get him to bed

[fio2]

Eualia what is it with mothers? mine is the same and my MIL is worse. I do the time out thing with my two. My dd is SN and her level of understanding is poor for her age but she does get the message when I put her outside the room for a while. I did try smacking her on her hand but every time I raised my voice to tell her off she would smack herself on the hand so I stopped doing that! But I do think brothers and sisters do fight. My dd finds her little brother irritating and vice versa. Think jimjams idea about the book for your mum is a good idea.

[Davros]

I really believe that smacking only teaches that its OK to smack, not that I haven't ever done it. One of the problems with autism is the lack of reaction you get to being cross which can just make you more cross. I'm not in favour of time outs either though as autistic chldren generally don't relate it to the undesirable behaviour and don't consider it a bad thing, to be left alone to indulge in your favourite self-stim without anyone stopping you. I think, tedious though it is, you need to be very vociferous and obvious in your praise of NOT doing this behaviour, e.g. any opportunity where he is being "patient" or "tolerant" (in our terms) or calm or whatever should be praised and rewarded rather than trying to punish the "bad" behaviour. Also I don't think that firm "no" or "don't do that" has much impact on many ASD children, they just perceive it as attention and can't differentiate that its "bad" attention.

[Jimjams]

I think you need to find something that he hates and use that as an immediate punishment. For ds1 he hates being put outside the room so if he hits ds2 then he goes outside immediately for 10-20 seconds, and that seems to work for us. Anything more compicated (like sitting on the stairs is no go becuase he wouldn;t understand whyhe was sat there- and he quite likes the stairs anway) Sometimes though ds2 does just wind him up (being a normal sibling- and trying to interact) and then I tell ds2 to come away.

The other sorts of things the pros always say are to always use positive language "come away" rather than "don't do that", "be gentle" rather than "don't hit". etc etc

[Moomatoo]

I support an autistic child in mainstream school, and after a really good year behaviour-wise, she suddenly started smacking my arm and saying 'slap' when she felt under pressure and wanted to avoid a task. It turned out she was being smacked at home for being boisterous or disobedient, and when she transferred the behaviour in to school it caused all sorts of problems. She seemed to associate smacking with situations where she did not want to comply with instructions or demands.
I was happy to try to work through the behaviour, and by ignoring it and distracting the child, attempt to extinguish it, but the head felt he could not stand by while a member of staff was "assaulted". I'm posting this to try to show how what is done/taught at home may have unforeseen effects elsewhere in the child's life.
Eulalia, it might be a good idea to find out how the nursery would handle behaviour such as your son is exhibiting, and if you think their methods will be effective, you can use them at home as well, if they are transferable.

[Davros]

I agree with Jimjams about using positive language which takes some practice Also "redirection" is another strategy that can work well. I think you have to really careful with "punishment" as many ASD kids don't understand that is what is happening so you really need to relate the consequence to the behaviour. SOcial stories also might help. It all depends a lot on the level of your child's understanding, their communication levels and whether they mind, for instance, upsetting you. I do tell my son that I'm upset or we can't do X if he's going to behave badly and I think he does understand as his receptive language is so good. Other things you can try are token systems but these need to be set up carefully and very clearly at the specific behaviour rather than just general "bad" behaviour.

[aloha]

Hi Eulalia, glad you weren't too offended by my having a go at your mum - I worried a bit about that Still think she's wrong though. Jimjams, I discipline my son in exactly the way you do - just shut the door on him because he hates it so much, and he does understand why. The other day I accidentally shut him out and he burst into tears and came in sobbing "I don't bite" which made me feel terribly guilty but also please IYKWIM.
As for violent sibling rivalry I was cringing to recall how my brother and I used to fight, and the story about my friend and the knife is absolutely true! They are very close now, funnily enough. But they certainly rarely played together (nor me and my brother) so I don't think that's odd either. Little siblings are annoying (even though it's not their fault) whether you are autistic or not.

[Jimjams]

In fact I'm so used to using only postive language now that I get really stressed by people continually saying no to ds1. DH's BIL is terrible. Whenever we go to stay or they are here or you hear is "don't x" "no" aggghhhh. However many times I explain that he doesn't understand the word don't and will just hear "touch" BIL doesn't get it.

I think the other thing is depending on the lvel of language/understanding you have to be careful to choose what you discipline over. Our outside the door punishment is reserved for absolute no no's which basically means hitting or not going to bed (!! that's a no-no in our house!) but they are used very rarely. Otherwise its just distraction and positive language all round.

[Jimjams]

In fact I'm so used to using only postive language now that I get really stressed by people continually saying no to ds1. DH's BIL is terrible. Whenever we go to stay or they are here or you hear is "don't x" "no" aggghhhh. However many times I explain that he doesn't understand the word don't and will just hear "touch" BIL doesn't get it.

I think the other thing is depending on the lvel of language/understanding you have to be careful to choose what you discipline over. Our outside the door punishment is reserved for absolute no no's which basically means hitting or not going to bed (!! that's a no-no in our house!) but they are used very rarely. Otherwise its just distraction and positive language all round.

[aloha]

Just chatting to another couple of friends with younger sibling - one dimly recalls trying to push a bamboo pole down her little brother's throat 'to see how far it would go', another recalls locking pushing her little sister into a glass-fronted cupboard. They're not psychopaths now, honest!
I only do brief time outs for hurting or biting. And I agree with jimjams re positive language, only sometimes I just can't think fast enough to come up with the 'positive' version of 'NOT in the road!" - yes, I know it is "STAY on the pavement', but sometimes my poor brain is full and doesn't work properly
I suspect disciplining an NT two year old is similar to disciplining an older autistic child.

[Eulalia]

Thanks for all the responses everyone. Ds has been really good the last couple of days and I am wondering if I worry too much, you know kind of thinking "he is autistic therefore his responses to dd and others will necessarily be inappropriate/bad" but in many ways he's probably a lot better than a 'normal' child (some of the posts here make me realise he could be a lot worse!) For a start he's not really interested in posessions much and will happily let dd play with his toys (unless he is actually playing with them at the time). Also he's more interested in doing things on his own and never actually picks on her as such. I think the conflict arises becuase she is so interested in what he is doing and wants to be involved and his response to this is probably normal for a 4 year old although he's still far too rough. Then there is the thing where he is being the adult and telling her off which is more autistic but I have been thinking that if he wants to be like an adult then I should be setting a good example to him and smacking is not a good example!

I try keeping them apart a lot but its almost impossible as she is desparate to be involved in what he is doing. She's not at an age yet where she can be told to keep away but I guess that won't be too far off.

Anyway something great happened today - I took them both swimming and he was doing the usual splashing about and being a bit irritating until I got speaking to a woman with a wee girl and she had two dolls. Ds picked one up and starting playing with it in the water for ages. Then in the changing rooms he was very interested in a baby and was patting it's back very gently and looking all concerned. I got home and dug out the doll I got for him ages ago and he played with it for a bit - all good signs! I think I just need to really encourage him to be nice to dd and really praise him for positive behaviour. I know he cares about dd to some extent - recently on a walk he picked a flower for her

Again I feel he's been pretty good considerng it's been 2 months since he finished playgroup and any kind of structured environment and has had to rely on me nearly all the time for amusement - just giving myself a pat on the back here!

[aloha]

You know Eulalia, he sounds lovely, affectionate, imaginative and kind. I really wouldn't get stressed about his behaviour. Splashing is very, very normal too! My ds doesn't care too much about toys and loves dolls too. I've seen lots of children acting like adults with smaller children - I don't think it's unusual. They just enjoy not being at the bottom of the pecking order as usual. The good side of this is that young children don't seem to mind a bit of bullying by bigger kids - in some ways they almost expect it - or just tune it out if they can't be bothered with it. Glad it's going well and you are clearly doing all the right things.

[Jimjams]

Eulalia- ds1 is the same - he ignores ds2 unless ds2 gets really annoying!

It's true about the good behaviour as well. Although I have often been hounded by the tut tut brigade I have also had old ladies come up to me and sya they've never seen such a well behaved child (on a train from glasgow to london during the height of the train obsession- he was glued to the window).

[Jimjams]

Mind you the little old lady on the train didn't see him headbutting his window today (really need to get stronger glass- it frightens the life out of me when he does that- all because he'd wet himself and was saying "da da mmdan" which means "want the toilet" I'd taken him and he carried on saying it, eventually dawned on me that it also means "take my shoes off" and although he wasn't wearing shoes he was weraing socks- yep I'm a mid reader- by now he had had a total meltdown- not a good day- I put the washing machine on for him but even that didn't calm him down).

So maybe not so well behaved