Hi I'm new- Looking for opinions Mainstream vs Special Needs

[LunarRose]

Hi I'm new but I've lurked for a couple of weeks. I have a DS who is 3 who is going through the dx process for autism (not really a surprise, we know he's different!!!), But we are lucky cos he's settled in a nursery, has one to one, a good early year sen team - something I know a lot of people have to fight tooth and nail for!!!

Now the debate Mainstream vs Special school

With my eldest DD just starting school yesterday, I've got to thinking about DS starting school next year.

There is a super specialist school 45 mins away, but with a super Early year sen team working to get the help in place already, I'm wondering whether it might work in MS.

SO looking for experiences and opinions the good the bad and the ugly!!

Ps. Have benefitting hugely from the lurking, big thanks!!! it's so good to know that other people are worrying thinking about the same things

Hi Lunar, It depends very much on the school & of course your sons needs.
ds2 is at ms with 1to1 & it suits him BUT he is very passive, its a small village primary, a very calm environment, with lots of continuity, he ahs the same lsa each year. The school are very good at working with all the outside agencies (salt, psych, ot, physio, paed etc).
Also at primary children are very accepting and don't look for or notice differences.
He & the school also has support from the sn school outreach team.
I'm sure the time will come when ms is no longer suitable, I can't imagine him coping in a big ms comp for example. But for now it works for us. It also means he is going to school within our community.
Had a good ms primary nt been available I would of been very ahppy for him to go to the sn school.
It really is about going & looking at all the options, talking to the staff. DOn't worry about ofsted scores etc attitude is far more important when looking at ms inclusion.

:) nice comment about ofsted - must admit I looked at the ofsted report for the SN school which wasn't out of this world, but anyone who knows the school, says it's brill and sometimes I think OFsetd is looking at the wrong things.....

depends on the child.

Ds1 spent 4 terms in mainstream (we weren't allowed to look at special- now I'd tell them where to go with that nonsense). It was an utter disaster. We got him out and he has blossomed in special school (he's now 11).

But that's him and his school. You need to look at what is available locally and how it would suit your ds. I will never allow ds1 near a mainstream school again- but your son's needs may be different.

Agree that it depends entirely on the needs of the child and what the school is actually going to offer (not what they say they "can" offer, bit what they will, for your child and your situation)

Dd1 is at SN school, but we had to fight to get her in there. Local authority was aiming at ms for hher, as she is so passive, never any trouble, a cute little thing who runs around smiling sweetly at everyone, etc. But that would have been awful for her - she would not have cope well (well, she would have held it together, but it would have been extremely stressful for her)

We put her into ms pre-school, and they were fab too. Lovely sen workers, portage in place, etc, but there was nowhere for her to go onto. We were in a grammar school area, so all schools highly academic, and it would have been a disaster. We must have looked at over a dozen schools, both state and private, and we saw one that might have worked. Bit that wad because of the attitude of the head at the time, and she was nearing retirement, so we didn't want to risk it.

Have a look around, and as you do, as well as listening to how inclusive the scholars are, how they love to welcome everyone, etc, try to imagine your ds right there, in the middle of what you see - how would he react? What would stress him? And ask specifically what they can do about that. Try to see if you can see another child like your ds, try to imagine whether he would fit in. We saw lots of lovely schools, who all assured us that they would cope with dd1, but my gut feeling each time was that dd1 would not cope.

Some places will offer a mix too. My old SN school had a few children who spent time in MS with support & some MS children who came for day a week.

Depends on the child and the school. I don' think there are any easy answers - like every bloody thing to do with SN!

Hi Lunar

Would also start applying for a Statement of special needs from the LEA on your son's behalf. Its never too early to do this. Many special schools require a Statement in order to enter.

Re this comment:-
"There is a super specialist school 45 mins away, but with a super Early year sen team working to get the help in place already, I'm wondering whether it might work in MS"

Good news indeed re specialist school - it would not hurt to visit and enquire now about the feasibility of a place for your son and whether they think he would be suitable to attend. Same applies to the MS; look at the attitude of the school first and foremost.

Was wondering what the Early Years SEN team are actually doing, they can promise much but actually do very little in terms of support. Would be wary of entering ms infants without a Statement in place.

Depends on the child and the school too....

My thoughts are that if he is MF/HF and can cope with MS, it would be good to try it....my DD (7yo ASD + ADHD) is at a very large, but very inclusive MS inner London primary.

She copes with a lot of help and is liked and accepted by the other kids- there are 3 autistic/ 1 aspergers and 1 downs kid in her class and the school does an awful lot to encourage the kids to integrate and the result is a very happy school. This has been really good for her self-esteem.

Not all MS schools are like this though (we were at a not so happy school b4), some really don't want SN kids, so do a bit of sniffing around...

Another one who will say 'depends on the child and the school'.

Last year I went to visit the MS school that all my friends send their children to, and I had assumed DD1 would go to albeit needing 1:1.

She is not a passive child, and is really quite challenging.

The head said all the right words 'of course we can meet DD1's needs', but his attitude and the non-verbal signs weren't good. I very quickly knew that there was NO WAY DD1 would be going to that school (especially as I got told off for parking on Double Yellow Lines, when there was a Blue Badge clearly on display ).

I went to visit the other MS school, and they were 100 times more suitable, but it still would have required a huge level of adaptation for DD1 to cope there.

The special school were just amazing. I knew instantly that DD1 would thrive there, and be seen as a joy, not a problem.

Fortunately, the LA had looked at DD1's statutory assessment documents, and decided that SS was the place for her, so I didn't have to agonise or persuade them.

depends on the child and the school

FWIW DS2 is at a special school which is fantastic, stretches and supports him and manages also to be great fun.
he is loved, respected and accepted there. I would not have him anywhere else.

Along with everyone else, depends on the child and school. I do have more of a leaning towards mainstream if at all possible.

Am currently having the similar dilemma of whether my ds should go to a specialist pre-school. Am at least going to look at it, but every part of me is saying no so will probably just wait a bit longer for him to go to a mainstream nursery.

I have been indoctrinated into the lines of inclusion and exclusion and am adamant that he will walk the line of inclusion (very easy for me to say that now when he is not even 2!)

A year ago i was scared of the thought of dd2 going to MS school, she was being assesed for ASD, was non-verbal and non-responsive to my voice. She starte a SN nursery and a MS nursery (2 mornings at each). We applied for a place at a SN school but was refussed a place . She's now 4.5 and in the past year has come a long way. She started MS school last week with a full time 1:1 and outreach from the sn school, the school have been great, staff have been trained and things have been changed to accomadate dd2. She's only done 2 mornings so its too early to say if things will work out but i think if i put her a sn school i would have alway wondered 'how she would get on in MS?'.

I think if you can find a good understanding ms school then its worth a shot.

Yet another one with 'depends on the child and the school.'

ds has been in ms for 4 years and while it was not too bad for a couple of years, this last year, in KS2, he has been finding it more difficult - and school has been less tolerant. ds is in a small village school and while he is accepted by most of the other children, they don't actually play with him. Some of the other children found it funny to make him do stupid things.

Also, I agree with Attila, apply for a statement and make sure it is a good quantified statement. In the past, school had cancelled SALT visit when they were too busy or there was not enought staff -this was when ds had only 4 visits a year. Social skills lessons which were recommended by autism outreach were ignored too.

We are now trying to get him move to a sn school.

I think KS2 is often the stage where things become more difficult for ASD children. DS wasn't even dxd until he was 9 - KS1 was OK for him in an inner city ms primary but KS2 was very stressful.

I would agree with Attila as well and take a proactive approach in applying for a statement and ensuring it meets your DS's needs. It takes at least six months to get one in place and you wouldn't normally have the option of going to special school unless you have one.

From a strategic point of view, if you have doubts about which is more suitable and might want to move him after a while - it's usually easier to move from special to ms than vice versa. Special school is usually much cheaper so LA is more likely to agree and it will be easier to find a place at ms at a later stage.

"I have been indoctrinated into the lines of inclusion and exclusion and am adamant that he will walk the line of inclusion (very easy for me to say that now when he is not even 2!)" FnD

Sometimes, 'exclusion' is 'inclusion'. For my DD1, who has to wear a harness whenever she is near a road, unless she is in her Maclaren Major; who has no sense of danger; who finds it hard to cope with busy unstructured environments; who is impulsive and liable to meltdowns...I could go on; a Mainstream environment would do several things:

-It would single her out. Seeing hundreds of children walking freely down the road towards school, and being restrained. It would upset her.

-The 1:1 worker that she would need for every single minute of the school day would mainly contain her, rather than educate her.

-She would become so behind that she would need her own separate curriculum.

-She would be so far behind her peers that she wouldn't be able to have meaningful friendships - they are on to age appropriate toys/games/tv programmes. She can't cope with anything other than CBeebies, Barney or Dora.

I could go on.

For her, and I do stress, for her, Special school is going to give her the opportunity to be at the same level or slightly ahead of her peers - she will gain self-esteem from actually having friends rather than being babied and having surrogate mummies, as has happened at preschool.

If the special school enables her to develop to such a level that mainstream is appropriate, they will kick her out cheerfully

Which is why lougle, I initially said that it is really dependent on the child and what they want and need.

I am struggling to make sense of it all at the moment - 17 years of working with adults with learning disabilities has taught me a lot about inclusion / exclusion and how much society still needs to move on. For that reason inclusion has to be my primary approach to bringing up my son. However, every day, I think about whether that is the right thing - I guess it will continue to be an everyday question and will be dependent on what he wants and needs as he gets older.

I think you will know as he grows up, whether he will manage mainstream or not. I was just pointing out that there really can't be, in my opinion, such a clear demarcation as 'inclusion/exclusion', rather 'suitable/unsuitable', which will apply equally to mainstream and specialist schools.

You can put his name down for ms and apply for sn school, we had dd2's name down early for a place at ms and applied for sn school 4 months before she was due to start. I think its so hard to tell at the age of 3 as they can change so much in a year. Deffently apply for a statement (the best thing we did for dd2).

Also remember, a child does not have to start school (by law in the uk) until the term after their 5th birthday so you could have the option of keeping him in nursery until he is 5.

I agree with lou that ms may not be for her dd, my dd2 also wears a harness when out and has no sense of danger, luckily dd2's school is secure enough for dd2 not to have a 1:1 glued to her (just near by watching her). I think dd2 will be fine in KS1 but may struggle in KS2.

Do what you think is best for your ds.

Marne & Lougle - WOW thank you. it is so good to have the 2 sides of the debate so clearly laid out, and from people who actually know!

I'm on a break from PGCE (I go back next week) So from the pedological point of view really strongly on the inclusion idea. But I do worry exactly that that he might be more included in the school tailored for kids with autism....

I've left a message asking to visit the special school so hopefully I'll get to see it in the next month!!

Welcome LunarRose and thanks for this thread.

My DS (ASD) is 3.3 and attending a special playgroup two mornings and a MS one for two. He is quite high-functioning compared to his special pre-school group. However...

I have been told by the LEA that they will support me whichever way I choose to go but the number of times I've been told that "DS does need good role-models" has made me a bit suspicious.

And the fury which was wrought from everyone who have to tow the party-line on inclusion when I had a frank conversation with the Senco of my daughter's primary when she said that it wasn't the best place for a child with autism made me even more wary.

He has good communicative role-models in his life. In me and DH, in his 10 year old sister and his cousin who is the same age. In the children he'll be with when he starts going to clubs.

My main concern is the narrow curriculum in MS. I taught primary-aged children and there is no room for interests or expansion.

I hope you get some answers

Oh btw Marne thank you for the post about a child being able to stay at Nursery. I had no idea! I was wondering what to do with DS when he turns four in the summer because the special schools won't admit children until they are five. I'm really happy to know he can stay at pre-school until then

Sorry if I sounded a bit tossy last night Lougle et al. Am really concious of overcompensating for people assuming ds will lead a 'special' life as they call it before he even knows what he wants and am also concious of all the people I have worked with who have really struggled to find a balance because they were put on the excluded path from birth.

Its a huge horrible issue which we are all stuck in the middle of - but having reflected am concious that I probably sounded like a bit of a righteous tosser - and I am not (most of the time, anyway)

We tried ms but for ds was wrong he loved it did what he wanted was very much protected as all adults seemed to do the poor ds so in result he learned nothing as well as poorly trained 1-1

He starts in speech unit of 8dc and there in unit f/t I feel that they will help ds to meet his potential and yes to push him

Ds was inclusive only by location

FnD - i think what has been so useful for me on this thread is seeing everyone lay out each of the arguments that have been quietly floating about my head. The desire for "normalcy" and feeling strongly about is so important (and easily forgotten) especially as I'm noticing how much we as a family have kinda moulded our family life to work with DS sensibilies, The balance is hard to work on

Roundthebend - much my concern at MS he may be made safe (DS has major personal space issues) I wonder whether he'll actually learn, more of a concern as DS reaches school....

Big thank you for everyone posting on this thread... def helping me put my thoughts in order :)

To those with kids in SN schools - do you find it easier to get the right help in SN? less battles??

TO those with older kids does the situation change between primary and secondary???