Mmm bit annoyed about this

[debs40]

It's the all new show at school with everyone being very helpful.

Get a note in DS's book today however, saying he'd upset another child with his possessiveness about another (one of his close pals).

Teacher had sprung into social story mode with the class and role play about not excluding others. The note then says 'we intend to follow this up with more work'.

I asked DS what had happened at play time today (bearing in mind he'd come home for lunch so only had 2 x 15 min breaks)and he was nonplussed. I then asked him if there'd been any arguments about not playing with someone or wanting to play with someone in particular. Again, no.

He knew they'd done some work on not excluding people but I have to say if it was aimed at him, it certainly went over his head - he clearly did not put it togetehr with any incident at playtime.

Anyway, I've never known DS to lie (really I haven't - he's a brutally honest little Aspie)and his social skill problems have never included excluding someone before, so I'm a bit peturbed.

He was however on stage at school today for being in the final of the school talen show with two pals - one of whom was the boy he was supposed to be being possessive over.

I'm wondering if someone is jealous. There is another little lad in the class (strangely also Aspie) who has said things like this before. My betting - it;s the same kid feeling left out.

Mmm, now I may be jumping the gun and I don't know that they haven't SEEN an incident themselves but I don't want them pinning every bit of upset on him wihtout asking him what has happened.

Note has gone back in book - or do you think I'm overreacting.

I don't think it's overreacting to want reassurance that an incident your DS has no recollection of having any involvement in has actually been witnessed by someone. I also think it makes sense to alert the teacher to the fact that the subsequent role play has had no impact on him because he can't pinpoint a time when he's left someone out - she may need to change her tactic if there is an issue within the friendship group.

One of the Y4 classes I teach (MS school) has two children with an ASC diagnosis, one of whom is identified as having Aspergers. He has a real 'thing' about being left out even though nothing I've seen in class, on outings and in the playground would suggest that this is the case; the other boys are incredibly welcoming and always save a space for him, encourage him to join their games, seek him out to be partners and yet he often comes to me moments after I've witnessed them actively including him, sobbing because no-one wants to be his partner/friend. Somewhere in the way this child sees things he IS being left out and even if I don't see it the same way it clearly matters to him and upsets him. Maybe there's something of this with the 3rd child you've mentioned... it's not necessarily that someone is being actively excluded but that a child feels left out.

Asking the teacher to clarify the nature of the 'excluding' may be helpful and also ask her to include in her messages home, details of what your DS has said when asked about incidents at school.... this will either prompt her to actually ask him if she's not already or will a useful trigger if it's something you want to revisit with your DS as you'll be able to refer directly to it, "Mrs X has written down that you told her blah blah blah...".

I think it's so difficult to know what to do in a situation like this.

Ds1 never lies, either, but then his version of the truth often doesn't resemble what others remember from the situation. And he remembers incidents very differently to other people. So he will remember bumping into someone else as that someone else bumping into me. And his sense of time is a bit mixed up too so he will tell me things that must have happened ages ago as if they happened today -- and things that happened today can lie buried a long time till they surface.

I guess what I'm saying is that it is really hard for us to know what went on in the classroom or playground, and it's hard for our children to connect what went on in the playground with messages they hear elsewhere. I think I would probably let it go. It's natural to want to defend our children but not at the cost of pointing the finger at other children.

And the positive thing about it is that the teacher did a whole class thing about children feeling left out, which is actually a very good initiative, whatever the rights and wrongs of this particular situation.

SE13 - I think you've hit the nail right on the head. I think this child does feel excluded and this coupled with the fact that DS is clearly not always aware of how his behaviour might be interpreted has been a difficult mix before. The boy also gets very jealous as the boys DS plays with were his friends last year.

Niminy - I totally take your point too but I'm definitely not pointing the finger, just raising the fact that maybe it might be worth investigating a little in future as DS had no knowledge of it and it certainly doesn't seem like the teacher had asked DS about any incided specifically.

DS doesn't get generally get confused about these things but can be a bit 'oblivious' to causing upset. So my point is, if he has and they know this (rather than it just having been reported by another child) they should ask him specifically about it.

Wouldn't any NT child get asked specifically?

I know the teacher is trying to help and I;ve thanked her very much for this. Just flagged up that DS didn't seem to be aware of any upset so was either oblivious to any slight caused or there may be a need to investigate a bit further if it happens again.

These things have a habit of escalating in my experience so best to be straight. You can't go back and raise doubts about the incident in a week's time if things do.

Mmmm, this morning teacher tells me that it was actually the little boy he was on the trip with as a partner who says DS stopped him playing with the others. His mum came into speak to school as this boy has a friend starting next year and she was worried about DS getting 'possessive'.

Now the weird thing is DS hardly talks about this boy any more. DS is obsessed by Match Attax and football and the little lad doesn't like football. In fact, I was with them on the school trip and DS was playing happily with me and the other boys playing football and the other boy was on his own playing sandcastles.

DS is overly tactile and I could see this was irritating the other boy. The other boy also said I always end up in DS's group on trips (school did this at the beginning of the year as DS felt more comfortable with this boy than others).

I was a bit annoyed that the teacher has not investigated this but launched into 'social skills' teaching on the word of another mum. She also said they would have to do some work on the new boy starting as he was a friend of the other little boy and they didn;t want DS to get 'possessive'.

At the school fair, the new boy and DS played happily much to the chagrin of this other boy.

I think this is more a case of jealousy and feeling left out by the other boy. I don't want everythign pinned on DS without evidence. it's bad enough with those he struggles with, let alone him being blamed for everything else.

I do take your point, Debs, about not wanting everything to be pinned on your ds, and I say that knowing how many parents have come in to school to complain about my ds1's behaviour.

One of the challenges as I see it is to try and separate what we might call the normal unhappiness of childhood (jealously, quarrels, being left out) from the specific dimensions of ASD unhappiness. What I mean is that I think this sort of stuff goes on all the time in a classroom, and some of it is an unpleasant but necessary part of social learning. I think our kids with ASD suffer more with all this stuff, but some of what they go through is shared by lots of their classmates.

Most of the time we as parents don't find out about it, or we hear garbled stories from our kids, but in any case we can't intervene because it happens in schooltime. In a sense, you're hearing about it, and intervening because you have fought to have more communication with the teacher.

I'm not saying that this is a case where you need to let the teacher sort it -- if you feel strongly that this needs to be sorted then you need to go and speak to her. I'm just saying that for myself I think this sort of problem does raise a really difficult question (which I don't know the answer to) about where to steam in and where to let the school cope.

How odd! It sounds as though it's the other mum who needs the social skills input - maybe the school could write a social story for her about sharing nicely and not telling tales?!

The teacher is right, it will be sensible to prepare the whole class for the arrival of the new pupil but whilst bearing in mind that just because another pupil's mum reckons two children who are friends out of school will automatically be best friends in school, it doesn't always work that way.

I'm a bit confused though - is the 'trip partner' the same child as the one your DS is in the talent show with or is he the one who also has Aspergers? There's your DS, 'talent partner', other boy with Aspergers, trip partner and new pupil? Is that right?

Will the same teacher have the boys in September? If so perhaps she'd be willing to talk through how she plans to group the children so you can prepare your DS for this too....

Niminy - you are right. It is always a difficult one to know when to let them deal and when to let it be. But, I think because my confidence in these teachers has been so low all year and because I know from being on trips and in school that they have nothign to do with the boys when they play, having been on the trip with the boys in that group, I can say NOTHING happened.

SE13 - there is

DS

Other boy with Aspergers

2 boys who were in DS's group for talent show - one of these boys was the trip partner who is complaining about DS being possessive with him on the trip and who has a new friend starting next year - BOY X!

That is why I was annoyed too - the assumption seemed to be that this boy and the new boy would of course be best friends and so didn't want anyone spoiling that.

I think the mum knows her BOY X is struggling with play becaise of the football she may be extra sensitive to that. She also knows DS to have problems with new people.

But I don't like the word possessiveness. It is not somethign I have seen with DS at all and it did not happen on the trip that I went on and I was with them ALL BLARDY DAY!

I am going to speak gently to the other mum about it too.

Instead of tackling it with the other mum could you stomach inviting them round (trip partner and boy X) or arranging to meet up a couple of times over the summer? Friendship trios are always tricky whether or not those involved are NT or have SN but I suppose if you demonstrate that you are happy for all three to be friends together and are taking active steps to facilitate this the other mum may be reassured? Maybe.

Thanks. I have had her son over a few times but I get the idea that she has gone into school to tell them to get DS off her son's back. I hope she hasn't 'battened down the hatches' now.

I have just texted the other mum to say that I was on the trip and that I noticed that there was a bit of irritation from her son about DS' overtactileness and that i didn't want DS to be a nuisance so perhaps we could chat. I'm hoping this might open a door to talking about it openly.

DS has just come home for lunch and we were talking about play time and he said this boy X hasn't really got anyone to play with at the moment and that he said in class that someone was pushing him over and stopping him joining the game. DS is completely oblivious to the suggestion it might have been him.

Oh God, I am going to have to talk to the teacher again.

I just think, if a mum had come and said this about an NT kid, and the teacher hadn't seen anythign, they would investigate. They wouldn't go making assumptions and jumping in there with both feet. And then start worrying about next year and a boy arriving who may want his own friends and may not want to stick with boy X.

I get sick of sorting out basic little issues like this.

I don't think this is a SN issue per se... lots of parents of NT kids involve themselves and their teachers in friendship issues and some teachers will jump in immediately for whatever reason, maybe because they are worried about being labelled as a teacher who allows 'bullying', maybe because the parent who has come in has threatened to involve the Head. Maybe the teacher feels that whilst it's been fine this year she needs to get a handle on things if next year's going to run smoothly.

It does happen all the time with NT children - honest! No parent of any child likes to think of their child being alone at playtime and I think it's one of the hardest tthings to get right as a teacher - I want all the children to be happy at school and will do all I can to help them with their friendships but I can't expect every child to get along with every other child! I use worry books and get the children to write/draw about their lunchtimes/playtimes in it - lots write 'I had sausages for lunch' or 'I had no worries' but others will ppour out their hearts about the injustices of X wanting to play with Y today. Most don't want me to do anything about it beyond know that it has worried them, it does mean I can keep an eye on things though.

FWIW this sounds like a largely NT issue that is exacerbated because you are so used to having to sort things out and fight your son's corner. If he didn't have a contact book you wouldn't know that the whole role play thing had been done or that it was aimed at your son - which is what school is llike for most parents of NT children; the teacher would have done what needed to be done and would be keeping an eye on it.

But SE13, surely you get a handle on it by finding out what happened. You don't just assume that one child is in the wrong.

She did a role play in which she was 'the bad person' dragging friends away from their group.

I am fuming about this now.

Yes, I would definitely try to work out what, if anything, had actually happened and would tell the parent that that is what I'd be doing before even contemplating bizarre role plays involving 'bad people'.

I also wouldn't assume that any of the children involved were necessarily in the wrong - I'd assume that one of them was feeling miffed for whatever reason and do my best to find out what was going on.

I'd find out more by speaking to the children and maybe by asking the playground supervisors to let me know how things were going with X, Y and Z in the playground regardless of the children's ages, stages of development or SN - it wouldn't make sense to do it any other way.

Thanks. I am going to email this year's and next year's teacher (who has been roped in) to express my concern that they establish exactly what went on before they put 'strategies' in place to deal with this.

That sounds sensible.... hopefully next year's teacher will also have the sense to say to the other mother that she'll let the boys make their own minds up about friends in September and that she'll leave them be unless an actual problem (in the eyes of the boys and the teacher!) develops.

I hope they reply with something reassuring.

Long email to teachers done!

They might think I am a loon but I have to go by experience and my experience is that you have to set your cards on the table early on to stop things escalating.

I am annoyed that no effort was made to talk to both children and identify specific incidents. How can you address something if you are not sure what has happened? How can you be sure what has happened if you haven't spoken to the children or seen it? It was just assumed DS must have been doing somethign to annoy this boy so strategies were embarked upon.

The other mum is very straight but an old stalwart of the school - been there from the school's beginning (it opened onlyt about 7/8 years ago), husband is a governor, big in PTA etc. I just feel her word has been taken as gospel and even with good intentions they've sprung to action to 'address' DS's 'problems'.

DS actually tends to attach to play rather than people if that makes sense. His big grievance is when there is no one to play what he wants to play. He kind of doesn't care who they are as long as they want to play his game. It just seems that this is the nature of him and he has a very limited view of friendship - they are people who play my games. He never talks about the other boy at home any more as he doesn't play football or collect Match Attax - end of!

Oh God, probably opened a hornet's nest but I don't want him blardy confused by 'bad people' strategies. He has done brilliantly with play this term.

Just got a brief email back from next year's teacher saying the boys are doing a swap class on Monday (going in to his class for the morning) and he would speak to the other boy to advise him to report any problems as they happen.

Suppose that's ok although it does kind of reinforce the idea that problems are anticipated.

I've pointed out that I wouldn't want them embarking on a whole load of social skills strategies if they didn't know what had happened and hadn't actually asked DS for his version.

This has got to be the proper way to act surely?? Idiot teachers we have had this year.

Oh God, DS has got a party this afternoon to go to and I've now discovered the other boy is going. I feel like I've got to stay and watch.

I spoke to DS about it all this morning, just gently to see if there'd been any problem. He is really non-plussed about it all. He is so straight about these things and he hasn't a clue about what is being suggested.

I feel like now he's got a 'label', we can just pin things on him without investigating.

I'm glad next year's teacher replied quickly. FWIW there will probably be a number of children who are being told to report any problems as they happen and I'd actually expect a teacher to lay down the law on this in September as part of the whole 'starting a new year' process - I know I will be.

Re: the party - would you normally 'stay and watch'? If you wouldn't usually stay then I don't see why you should now, in some ways that will be pandering to this other woman and may give the impression that you agree with her take on the situation. I'd be inclined to make sure the host parents have your mobile number (if they haven't already) and go and do whatever you'd do during party time.

Thanks SE13. That's good to know about next year.

I suppose I worry that when your child gets a 'label' they stop being seen as a normal child, and everything that raises its head as a problem with play is assumed to be their fault with no further investigation.

I do know the woman hosting the party (at a soft play centre) really well so it is not too much trouble to stay and chat. I wouldn't want her to put in a difficult situation. I am sure DS would be happy to be on his own but I am worried that the other boy might start moaning about stuff or complaining and DS is always so ill-equipped to defend himself.

I wouldn't want anythign to get worse.

How did the party go?

I obviously can't speak for the staff at your DS's school and the people you encounter elsewhere as you know them and how they are towards your DS but certainly in the schools I've taught in, a diagnosis/label doesn't stop us treating children as children.

Every child is different from every other child, label or not, and there are lots of teachers out there who actively seek to bring out the best in each one of those children and encourage them to progress and succeed. Hopefully next year's teacher won't be hampered by your DS's 'label' and will do all she can to make next year a happy and productive time for him.

I could cry SE13 I really could. You sound such a nice teacher!

Thank you so much for asking but things get worse.

I saw this mum at the party and we spoke. She said her son had said DS was stopping him playing with his friends and calling his friends names.

I asked what had he said and who the friends were. She could not say. Not would not (she's not bashful). Could not. She didn't know. It hadn't stopped her marching into school and reporting this as fact. It had clearly never crossed her mind there might be more to it.

I told her she had to ask her son to tell a teacher when something happened so it could be dealt with in real time. She seemed very reluctant to do this - 'he doesn't like to tell on friends'. I pointed out that my son could not put his side of the case unless this happened.

I'm so furious especially as she asked me at one point 'how severe is he?'. She obviously thinks it is acceptable to march into school and demand they do someting about him with general non-specific allegations about him.

As far as I can see from parties, group play, trips etc, her son is the solitary figure and I am wondering whetehr it is jealousy on his part. My friend is an MDSA and she said she has seen absolutely nothing like this and that DS does not generally play with her son.

I told this mum that I was aware of her son's irritation about DS's lolling and leaning and that I would advise DS that people needed personal space and that if her son told him this or told him to back off, then DS would respond.

But honestly, how can a teacher on such non-specific allegations start believing it was all DS and planning a whole host of strategies for him.

If the party today was anything to go by, it is the other boy that needs them.

Yes, it does sound as though the other boy would benefit from some input... don't panic in the Autumn if your DS is involved in a 'circle of friends' or something similar aimed at supporting this other boy!

The other child does need to learn to tell a school adult if problems occur and I wonder if next year's teacher has already cottoned onto this as being something he needs help with, hence the e-mail. If the teacher is more 'with it' than the one you've had this year you may find that he has experienced parents like the other mother previously and will have her signing consent forms for social skills groups etc. before the end of September!

Thanks. I hope so. My friend whose son had the party has had an older boy go through the school and she thinks the teacher is more clued up.

The mum has been around a bit as she has an odler daughter. She is a teacher and she told me today that she had her son moved in YR to another class as the mixed class would not be suitable for him. I think he has had problems with social communication himself.

She also told me that she had dealt with autistic children through her work and some of them had to be restrained - 'but he's not like that is he?'

Now you mention it, her son does attend the social skills groups. I thought it was because he was there as a 'friend' to my son (she seemed to imply this today too) but maybe the teachers think he needs it....

They are not very good at telling parents about the extra help they're giving.

SE13 I really appreciate your posts today. You've kept me going!

Do you know of some short guide, not too generic, that I could use to help people understand AS? DS is the passive type so he often doesn't fit the 'stereotypes' you read in some generic guides (who does?).