How far behind is just unacceptable?

[Dingle]

DD is in Y2 of mainstream, statemented for 20 hours plus another 6-10 on school action plus.

At long last we have got a rather "concise" breakdown of her P levels...but how far behind her peers would you say is differentiation just not going to work?

no advise for you imm afraid as ds still at pre school ahvent faced these challenges yet but bumping for you and big hugs x

sorry for typos i never seem to do any better lol

Anyone...please?

I think I'm fighting the same battle as you. My son started juniors last month and his new teacher has put him in a group with other "special needs" children but my son is the only one with a statement. They are doing differentiated work with the support of 1 TA. The work seems to be at the right level, but my son has huge gaps in his knowledge which aren't being addressed. I think he should spend more time working on these gaps with his 1 to 1 but school are only giving him 30 mins per day to do this. I'm trying to get his statement altered because it is so vague that school can apply his support in whatever way they see fit. Can you try the same?

dingle - if it helps, in my year 3 class, I have children ranging from p5( not statemented but does receive funding) through to L3b...We do differentiate.. a lot.

My daughter is in year 6 and works at the high end or just past p levels. I feel now that her inculsion is just locational for the lessons that are differentiated and that she gets nothing from those that aren't .

We are trying to get her moved to a special school.

I am just starting to find out about SEN education. DD is on School Action Plus, has already seen the Ed Psych and has been referred to see a pediatrician.

She is in Year 1, showing signs of ASD, cannot write any letters or read, she has 20mins 1to1 with the TA every day, and someone scribes for her when there is written work in the classroom.

She does seem way behind the other children, also in a world of her own and you have to be very careful that she doesn't wander off and get lost - I think that I may volunteer as a helper when the school visits the Panto, just to keep an eye on her, as the first week in Year 1, she did wander off twice, but I hope that they are being more careful with her now.....

Minniethemoocher

Have you considered applying for a Statement of special needs for her from the LEA?. If not I would seriously consider doing this asap; it looks like her needs are not being met on SA plus (which is also not legally binding unlike a Statement). An hour and 40 minutes tops of support per week won't help her particularly in the longer term.

www.ipsea.org.uk is a good website and has lots of information on it re applying for statements. If you apply for it you know its been done then; some schools can go ages without doing anything.

how does one find out where ones child is? dd is statemented and had one to one and is in reception. She is partially sighted and can't speak so I have no idea how they will teach her to read or know how much she understands.

Thanks AttilatheMeerkat,

I don't really understand how the whole SEN system works. Do I need to wait for the paediatrician's report before I apply for a Statement? Or should I apply for one now?

It just seems that without a formal diagnosis, my case my be a little weak....

Even with a DX it can be a nightmare. My DD has Down Syndrome and she still didn't get support until she started in Y1. The school kept on putting off the statementing procedure so I started it myself. Then the LEA turned it down saying the school were meeting her needs, so I completed all the tribunal paperwork with the help of IPSEA.
Common story I am afraid, the LEA backed down and eventually agreed to assess the day papers were submitted to the Tribunal Services.

I would start now if I were you.

Sorry needmorecoffee, you can ask to see your child's records, legally you are entitled to see them, even have a copy of them yourself but they may ask for a copying charge.

You should also be able to discuss the situation with the SENCO.

Dingle- we have a child who's position mirrors your dd; she recieves 20 hours a week. In yr 2 she is on the p levels in some areas, but also beginning to access the NC in a few.
Not sure if we have "spoken" befoer on this subject; we had some inset specifically about teaching children with Downs and they provided a lot of really valuable info from the Downs' Society I think, about learning style and common difficulties. I found this input invaluable in preparing and differentiating for her. Has our school had such support?

soory loads of typos, but hope you get the gist

Thanks for the helpful advice, I will talk to the school's SENCO, who has been very helpful and supportive and start to get things moving!

Robin, TBH I think funding is the issue. The school made all but 2 TAs redundant last term. The only 2 there kept were for the 2 statemented children in Y2, DD being one of them.

Hi there Dingle I remember you from a few years back, my DD is a couple of years older than yours (also DS) When she did her SATS at the end of Y2 she was on P levels for writing and I think Science, weirdly she was at NC for maths (only just) and NC age-appropriate for reading. The reading is a blessing as now (Y4) it allows her to access other NC areas like history for herself.

I remember being thrilled that she had done so well but totally unprepared for it - I wish I had asked more about what she was expected to get at the stage you are at now and been able to focus a bit of support at home - we kept getting told her reading was exceptional (it was and is and that's great, but we should all have been thinking a bit more about maths or writing her letters)

Is your LSA working with your DD exclusively or is the support being 'shared' with other non-statemented children? It is a sticky issue - we always like it when DD works in a group but sometimes school need to be reminded that LSA is there for DD and not a general spare pair of hands.

Can't remember where you are in the country?

Dingle- that sounds really peculiar; is it a particularly academic school with only 2 children on the sn register.. Or are there children who are on school action who get support from ?

I chased some "specialist advice" today. Need to call the DSA back tomorrow and here is the email I sent to the DownsED advice line.

"Sorry, I am not really sure how this works now but I desperately need some specialist advice with regards to my daughter's education.

My daughter is currently in Y2 at a mainstream school, it took years to get her statemented after the school kept putting it off, then the LEA refused assessmenting. After going through to the tribunal services, the LEA eventually backed down and my daughter is now statemented for 20 hours, plus 6-10 on school action plus. This support only started September 2007 when she started in Y1.

Despite my daughter being very happy and settled at school, the school are saying she is not accessing the cirriculum in Y2 and that they cannot differentiate without excluding her. Their suggestion is to move her down to the Y1 group for part of the day.

I have been given a basic breakdown of her P levels and to show progress she made in Y1

MATHS - from P5 to P7 for (there was another child in her class still on P7 + one on P8)

SCIENCE - from P4 to P7 (all other children in her class are at 1C or above)

WRITING - from P4 to P6 (there was another child on P6 with her, 2 children on P7 and one on P8)

READING - from P4 to P8 (there is one child still on P7 and 2 other children on P8)

I feel there are major funding issues here as our LEA do not give a seperate budget for statementing children and several TAs were made redundant last term.

We have no real specialist teaching service available to us and the "specialist support" is coming from an Outreach support service from our local SN school. This outreach support worker has no knowledge of ANY child with DS in Medway EVER going on to KS2 in mainstream. (waiting until the age of almost 6 before any individual support was provided surely doesn't help matters) she then went on to say she has never known a child with DS of my daughter's age with her reading ability.

Despite having 26-30 hours on her statement she has had only 25 minutes a day of "therapy" type support. The school cram SaLT, OT, Physio, Sensory and reading all into that 25-30 minutes a day.

I just don't know where to turn and whether or not to stop fighting and send her to a SN school when deep down I know she is capable of acheiving a lot more at MS. I am trying to support her as much as possible at home with therapies, reading, numeracy etc.

Can someone PLEASE advise."

Robin....you can see from my email to DownsEd that she is not THAT far behind some of her peers in all but science.(well IMO as a mum anyway)

I have been assured that her TA will be moving down with her when she goes into Y1 lessons. The idea is that she re-visits the Y1 ciricullum but they want her to work more independently.

As for the other children who are below average NC levels.....well the school has 2 TAs......what more can I say!

I would love the school to be brutally honest with me if this is purely a funding issue and I will be onto MP's, LEA, papers...the lot.

A friend's DS started his dual placement in September, he is doing 3 days at MS, 2 at SN. The MS school got a budget or around £12,000 JUST for him, to train staff and buy any equipment. He lives 5 minutes down the road and not under our LEA!!!!

Been on the phone to Bob Black at DSA this morning and he has sent me a couple of example letters of complaint should I wish to persue this avenue.

It was quite a relief to here from someone with a great, specialist knowledge of the system tell me that I am not going mad and that differentiation IS possible...and that some children were still on Plevels into KS2 and even Secondary Education and still making good progress in Mainstream with the lessons suitably meeting their needs!

What is "inset" please?

Oh Dingle. I do feel for you.
In my school, we are expected to differentiate for children from p4 to 3b within the same class, so I do not follow the school's argument.
We use makaton symbols, lots of picture prompts and the expertise of a fabulous TA to support our pupil with DS.
I can't believe that the school only has 2 teaching assistants, despite having children working on the p scale.
I think it might be worth asking to meet with the Head teacher and the SENCO and the special needs governor I would use this opportunity to "invite" them to provide some whol school training(INSET) on teaching children with DS. You also need a provision map which details how the statmented hours and school hours are "spent;" ie are they 1:1; are they individual support in Literacy or Numeracy, speech therapy etc. Count up the hours very carefully.
It does not sound as if the school are "on your side," for whatever reason. Without knowing more about how special needs works at school level in your county, I can't offer more help. I do have contacts i that county so can get the teacher's perspective on it if you need help.
I think you should not agree to dd going to year 1 for any lessons as it will dislcate her socially at a time when good role models are vital. The school need to be able to differentiate and if they can't then there is LA support avaible and they need to take it up. Good luck- keep me posted.

Thanks robin, remember we are in Medway not Kent County Council, a whole different kettle of fish!!

Off to vist the SN school tomorrow morning! Not really sure how I feel about that. I don't want to give in and let the system defeat us.

DH was off yesterday so we both went up to see the SN school. Dropped DD off at school in the morning her TA was off sick so no-one came out to meet her, we had to take her in.

We went to visit the SN SCHOOL and it JUST DOESN'T COMPARE (OOOPS SORRY!) the staff/child ratios are fantastic, individual workstations are available as well as grouped desk seating, the playground was bright and cheerful and SAFE, they take the children swimming every fortnight, they have Speech & Language Therapist visit weekly and an onsight SaLT assistant. They have regualr visits from the head of Paediatric OT and a TA on sight carrying out OT and Physio programs.....

In so many ways I wanted to hate it to make my fight seem worthwhile and to continue the fight further...but you couldn't hate it...a great atmosphere and very happy content children.

Collected DD from school, still no TA with her I take it, a teacher tells me I am needed in the school as DD won't come out. I was fuming by this stage, stormed into the school, there's DD sitting there, pinafore on, glueing paper. The SENCO of all people is sat there looking rather smug with DD's coat and bag on her lap making no real attempt to get her to pack up and go home. I told/signed to DD time to finish/coat on/home. She replied OK mummy and responded straight away. I then stormed out of the school and waited in the playground with all the other parents. I am sure they are just not bothering to even try with her now so that she is seen as failing. If the SENCO can't even cope then there is something seriously wrong with this school.

I know it should make my decision easier, but it doesn't. I want to prove how incompetent the whole system is and continue fighting. I am struggling over the thought of DD being dragged away from all her friends in MS and I am concerned that the SN school will not push her to her full potential.

Whatever way I turn, I cannot win....this support needs to available to children within a MS setting and because the system is failing I feel forced into sending her to a specialist provision when she could easily do really well at her own pace in mainstream.

I am trying to pick up the pace a bit for DS as well now as he in Y5 and will hopefully be taking his 11+ next year. Talk about being stretched to the extremes of education withing only a 2 year age gap!!!

Good news is, we got DLA for DD...but only for 2 years...there are obviously expecting her to grow out of having Down Syndrome over the next year or so!! LOL
___

Only just caught up with this. Congrats on getting the DLA - it is a pain to have to keep re-applying isn't it, and worse than the tax return to fill out.

Different situation but i had such a similar reaction to you to the SN school i visited for DD (this in context of secondary transfer) I absolutely loved it and saw straight away that DD would love it too - but still feel on balance that the MS should be able to meet her needs. One thing they said to us was that after 11 it is harder to move between settings - they counselled against for example starting in MS comp and then moving across in Y9 or similar. It is worth finding out if moving your DD now means she stays in that sector all the way through or are there secondaries in the area with a track record of successful integration for later on? (or are we all dreaming??)