EHCP, special nursery, mainstream vs independant school

[Lilacfish23]

Hello,

I realise this is a very long post however I have tried to keep to the point as much as I can. I am seeking to hear from parents who have expericned or have wisdom about the best way to go through the EHCP application process. I have heard already that the waiting list in KCC is extremely long and with this authority rejection is renowned.

My son is currently at a Speiclaist assessment nursery while also attending mainstream. Both settings have advised that he will need an EHCP to attend a mainstream school and most likely full time assistant to be with him. I am very conscious of the time slipping away and he is due to start school in September 2025.

He is awaiting an assessment for ASC, is non verbal and has relatively high needs when it comes to sensory processing, he makes quite consistent shouting noises and needs to constantly run and jump to regulate himself.

I have not had good experiences while looking around mainstream primary schools recently and when I’ve mentioned my DCs needs there has been apparently a lot of anxiety, wether I am speaking to the head or the schools senco. I know this is most likely to do with fears around will they be able to meet my sons needs and how stretched they are, however it has not been encouraging that he will find his place whatsoever, with one teacher saying that they will tell it to me straight - if a child has a severe disability then they cannot support them - when I asked what they would consider a severe disability they said a child that couldn’t follow along with the day.

I also look on in horror when I see that by year 1 in a class of 30+ the kids are sitting still mostly all day and raising their hands to speak. Alongside this the expectations of reading and writing that start…

I have two main questions for anyone who feels open to share what it was like for them,

Would my Dc stand a better chance of getting his EHCP granted if the Speiclaist nursery start his application, which they are planning to do in the next few weeks… or am I better off doing this myself to get it started as soon as possible? Will it make a difference either way?

The second question, does anyone have experience and guidance in getting an EHCP granted for their child where funding was provided for an independent setting?

If mainstream is so stretched and concerned about meeting my sons needs and the KCC will push this before a Speiclaist school place is given, I am determined to find a place that will help my son to be more accepted. A recent visit to an independent school with the most modest fees I have found, was like light and day, where the Senco made both of us feel very welcome and immediately started noting my DCs strengths. They have numbers of 14 -16 from reception to year 5 and at least two TAs in these classes. However being a single parent it is just completely out of my financial remit to even think about this option but I am already considering how I can take on another job to make this a viable option.

Like so many parents I am determined to get a place for my DC where he isn’t seen as a problem or anxiety and people can perhaps see all the light and richness he has to offer as well as the support he needs.

I would appreciate to hear your experiences so I can then digest it a bit and decide what is the best way to go forward.

I also ask politely if anyone feels triggered and inclined to attack or critisize I would rather not hear from you as my skin feels quite porous at the moment,

thank you and warmly,

Such a thoughtful post, I wish I had more relevant experience for you! You do need to get the EHCP in very urgently, but the nursery will be more competent than you. Perhaps you could offer to help them or ask ehat you might fo yo support their application, and remind yhem of how concerned you are sbout the urgency snd need to get it in well before everyone at the council disappears for Christmas?

Underfunded state schools are hard enough for kids with no SEN.

LimeSqueezer
As a first time poster on mumsnet, Im not quite sure this is the way to reply to you, but thank you for your comment and I hope it reaches you 🙂. It is a nice feeling in itself that you make an effort to respond!

I have heard already that the waiting list in KCC is extremely long and with this authority rejection is renowned.

The first thing to learn is you need to understand the actual law. Not what the LA would like parents to believe. IPSEA and SOSSEN’s websites are good places to start. There is no waiting list for an EHCP. Many have other appeal, some more than once, and the length of time to a hearing is long, but for those who do not have to appeal, the statutory timescale is 20 weeks. KCC would like to believe that doesn’t apply to them. It does and if they breach it and are delaying, legal action can be taken to force them to act.

Personally, I would request the EHCNA yourself ASAP. You need all the time you can get. A few weeks can turn into a few months. The LA should approach the nursery for information even if you make the request.

however it has not been encouraging that he will find his place whatsoever

For DC without an EHCP, state schools cannot refuse to accept DS because they think they cannot meet DS’s needs. Places must be allocated in accordance with the oversubscription criteria.

For DC with EHCPs, unless your preferred school is wholly independent (not all independent schools are wholly independent. Some are section 41 independents), there are limited reasons the LA can refuse to name your parental preference. The LA must name your preferred placement unless the LA can prove the high bar of:
-The setting is unsuitable for the age, ability, aptitude or special educational needs (“SEN”) of the child or young person; or
-The attendance of the child or young person would be incompatible with the provision of efficient education for others; or
-The attendance of the child or young person would be incompatible with the efficient use of resources.

To have a wholly independent school named in section I, and thus both the fees and the special educational provision funded, you will need an offer of a place and to prove the LA’s proposed school(s) can’t meet needs &/or it isn’t unreasonable public expenditure. Sometimes an agreement will be made whereby parents pay the fees and the LA fund the special educational provision. This is not likely in KCC. They don’t have to legally. They can say you are making suitable alternative arrangements, thereby relieving them of their duty.

If you are talking about a mainstream independent, are you sure they can meet DS’s needs?

If the LA doesn’t name your preferred school in an EHCP, you can appeal.

When does DS turn 5?

BrightYellowTrain
🙏🏼🙏🏼🙏🏼 many thanks for taking the time to reply and providing this useful information and insights which I have been chewing on.
I am really appreciating you passing all this on.

I have looked into section 41 independent schools that you have mentioned and it’s already brought to my attention some settings that I had no idea about and could be feasible options for my DC.

The private special school I found in section 41 and the wholly independent mainstream school are both in in East Sussex CC, another complexity… would KCC grant an EHCP for an education setting in East Sussex ? If I live in Kent and my DC attends a school there…

I have heard that KCC are very unlikely to grant a EHCP for a place in a special school and will rather encourage mainstream. From a financial perspective I wouldn’t know if EHCP fees are higher for a special school place or for a fee paying wholly independent school and which one they would be more likely to find if any…

The special schools I have seen in section 41 all start at 5 years.

When does DS turn 5?

My DS is 3 years and due to turn 4 just before September 2025.. I have considered delaying a year but the Speiclaist setting has advised against this for various reasons. Do you have some insight/experience here and do you know why several specialist settings start at 5 rather than 4?

posted edited by MNHQ at the OP's request.

It sounds like you are in a very similar situation as me, my daughter is nearly 4 and has just been diagnosed with ASD, she is due to start school in September 2025, the paediatrician has said she would need a ehcp and the right support in school, the first step is to request a EHCNA I did this myself and her nursery will carry on with the ehcp application, from my understanding is that we need to apply for a mainstream school place as the ehcp isn’t in place yet, we will get accepted for that school place but once the ehcp has finished this may change to a special school, for me I’m not likely going to have a finalised ehcp until the summer holidays or my daughter has already started mainstream school but the EHCNA should be finished stating care needs and because she is diagnosed the mainstream school need to put the right support in place. The EHCNA is a 6 week wait to find out if they will do a needs assessment then up to 14 weeks for the assessment period and the ehcp is a 6 month wait in my area, hope this helps, I know there is so much uncertainty at the moment with them starting school but hopefully we will get them the right help within school.

In case you haven’t seen it, you can search for schools here. You can filter results to only look at special schools. There may be other schools you aren’t aware of.

Schools being in another LA doesn’t stop them being named in an EHCP.

It doesn’t cost to appeal an EHCP. The appeal is free. You do not need to pay for legal representation. You can run the appeal yourself. Independent reports are often needed. If you need to appeal, can’t afford these and aren’t eligible for legal aid, there are charities who can help such as Parents in Need. KCC is one of the more difficult LAs to deal with. At some point in DS’s school career, you will probably have to appeal whatever placement you decide on.

With the level of needs you describe DS as having, the cost of the special education provision (including therapies) DS needs and a special school will be higher than the cost of the special educational provision and a wholly independent mainstream. Either way, DS is going to need significant special educational provision that will be costly to self fund.

Because DS is summer born, I would reconsider deferring, so he starts reception in September 2026. It won’t solve all the issues. There will still be a gap between typically developing peers and DS, and DS will still need an EHCP. What it will do is allow you time to secure a watertight EHCP.

Lots of specialist settings start at 5 because of the ages they are registered for.

The EHCNA is a 6 week wait to find out if they will do a needs assessment then up to 14 weeks for the assessment period and the ehcp is a 6 month wait in my area

You should make an application via the normal admissions process because you will not have a finalised EHCP by the deadline for the normal application process. However, the EHCP process is governed by the statutory timescales that are the same whatever LA you live in. You are right in saying the LA has 6 weeks to decide whether to issue or not. But, the further 14 weeks are not just for the assessment period. If the LA is going to issue, they must do so within 20 weeks of first making the EHCNA request. If they aren’t going to issue, they must inform you by week 16 from the EHCNA request. Unless you have to appeal, which you may have to do but some don’t, there is not a 6 months wait for an EHCP. LAs lie, to think they can breach the statutory timescales. Parents don’t have to accept the LA acting unlawfully. They can take enforcement action.

Cinnamoncupcake
Thank you for sharing. My heart goes out to you on your journey with it all for you and jour DD. Helpful to know where you are at with the EHCP process and those details about a transition from school to a specialist setting. So I will pass on to you what a SENCO shared with me last week, she was saying that putting the specialist school on the EHCP can be fundamental in getting a place later on. She said that trying to get a place at a specialist school when it hasn't been named initially can be very challenging, whereas if its named and even rejected, then a mainstream recommend following that, the fact that it was named can make it much more accessible. Not having filled out the EHCP yet, I don't know exactly where this applies - but sharing the wisdom passed to me.

BrightYellowTrain
Thank you thank you. Thats a great resource to have regarding schools and to have your knowledge about my queries including the legal advice, so helpful.

Because DS is summer born, I would reconsider deferring, so he starts reception in September 2026. It won’t solve all the issues. There will still be a gap between typically developing peers and DS, and DS will still need an EHCP. What it will do is allow you time to secure a watertight EHCP.

My gut has been saying this, if I can find a suitable financial set up for him for 2025. His specialist nursery would not be able to support this choice but his mainstream one said they would. Very much agreed to have the steadfast EHCP in place before school starts definitely helps us all breathe a bit more and time to see how my DC gets on in this next 12 - 18 months, that's a long time in a little DCs life.

Does anyone have experience in how to go about looking at specialists schools and arranging visits etc, I have seen the following on the website of a specialist school..

All pupils admitted to the school will have been initially referred by their Local Authority (LA). If, after reviewing the information provided, the school believes that the pupil meets the admission criteria, arrangements will be made with the LA for the parents/carers and pupil to visit the school.

Is this a matter to contact LIFT about arranging?

It is school specific. Some special schools have open days. Some offer visits to prospective parents. However, some won’t allow you to visit until after the LA has consulted as part of the EHCP process. If the LA agrees to issue, you will get the chance to make representations/ state your preferred placement, then the LA will consult placements.

whereas if its named and even rejected, then a mainstream recommend following that, the fact that it was named can make it much more accessible.

I think either you have slightly misunderstood the SENCO or the SENCO is misunderstanding the process here.

If a special school is named in an EHCP. They must admit and can be forced to via judicial review if they try to refuse.

Instead, do you mean if the parents say a specialist school is their preference but the LA name a mainstream school in the EHCP? If that happens, you could then appeal. If you decided not to appeal but in say 5 years revisited the question of what school is needed, having stated specialist school was your preference for the start of reception wouldn’t make any difference to the decision made in 5 years' time.

It can be harder to go from mainstream primary to specialist primary at non-standard admission points for the special school because whilst being full is not defined in law and on its own being ‘full’ is not enough of a reason to refuse to name your preference. (The LA has to prove the school is so full admitting DS is incompatible, which is a higher bar than LAs and schools like to admit.) There is a point where schools are so full the LA can prove incompatibility and this can sometimes be more likely at non-standard admission points.

I’m still at the very early stages with everything, my daughter was diagnosed autism with a pda profile just over a week ago, i applied for EHCNA about 2 weeks ago so we should hear if they are going to assess in December, we are also waiting for the paediatrician report because the paediatrician is stating that a ehcp is needed for September, this year is going to be a rush I feel to get everything sorted but I would sooner her start somewhere with the right support than it go badly from not having the right support, a lot of schools don’t seem to be pda trained or even know what pda autism is.

@Cinnamoncupcake hopefully it will all come together soon, I remember feeling like that last year when we were still waiting for everything and lots of things were not yet in place.

@Lilacfish23 my only advice would be to start the EHCP application yourself straight away as the sooner this is started the better. Waiting for nursery to do it will just cause delays and starting it yourself means you’re in more control.

@BrightYellowTrain are standard admission points September of each year as opposed to mid-year? Or do you mean it’s easier getting a place for reception as opposed to for year 1 or 2? As I have been confused about this recently.

@Ponche some special schools may have a standard admission point every September. I can’t think of any off the top of my head, though. To give a comparison to a mainstream primary school, a standard admission point would be reception, but a minority of schools also have a few more places allocated as standard at the start of Y3 (when the infant class size limits no longer apply). Standard admission points in SS vary. For example, some will first admit at reception age, some Y1 age, and some as soon as DC turn 5. Some will routinely add another intake at Y3.

One of my pp yesterday should say ‘have 6 weeks o decide whether to assess or not’. Not ‘issue’. Apologies.

@BrightYellowTrain thanks so much, I’m glad I asked as I didn’t even know that was a thing. I just assumed special schools take children every September, if they have space.

@Ponche DC do start special schools at all times, not just each September but mid year too, but there will be points in the school where a group routinely starts. To give a more detailed example, school X may routinely have at least 2 DC start at 3 in nursery, then another 6 in the September of reception, another 4 in the September of Y3, then another 8 in the September of Y7. That doesn’t mean DC can’t or don’t start at other points if an EHCP is finalised naming at another time. Just like in a mainstream school admissions for those without EHCP routinely happen at e.g. reception but a pupil may have an in-year admission at Easter of Y1.

Hi OP, you've had some great advice already.

Just wanted to point out this thread and the 3 previous ones. You are not alone!

I grew up in Kent and live in a nearby London Borough now.

EHCP support thread no. 4 - www.mumsnet.com/talk/special_educational_needs/5197351-ehcp-support-thread-no-4

Thanks @BrightYellowTrain, that’s makes sense and I see what you mean.

I have just had unpleasant experience at the open day where the head teacher broached the subject of special needs at the end of her presentation. Yes I did still decide to go and look at the school regardless out of curiosity. She has at the end of her presentation that was talking about how they are above average in the region for academics and had 100% attainability by year 6. at the end of the presentation she said I do want to say something about special needs - she tells it to parents straight that they do what they can but they cannot support children with severe special needs because they don’t have the break out rooms spaces, or staff for it.

I thought about raising my hand and saying that is not good enough especially since it’s been widely publicised that the number of children needing support is on the rise, but thought twice because it would embarrass her. I think it’s incredibly cheeky because her wording is framed as if she is being real, however any parent who had a child with special needs on any spectrum would surely be put off by it, it feels discriminatory and unethical.

What are we to do for our children if the states schools don’t want them and the LA will make it impossible to get the place at a specialist school.

Keep fighting for them for equality, inclusion and visibility I suppose. Accepting them and loving them.

Yes feeling glass half empty and not proud to say but taking it a bit personally. I am not looking for sympathy or a fight myself here, rather to feel within a community that gets it - even if we don’t agree on everything. What did you do in moments like that?

Phineyj
Thank you! I will take a look at that thread that sounds very useful and appreciate your words, I, we you are not alone and it just feels so important to know that. 💚

Ponche

Thank you for sharing!

BrightYellowTrain

Instead, do you mean if the parents say a specialist school is their preference but the LA name a mainstream school in the EHCP?

It was that if I think that my DC would be better off in a specialist setting then to go for that option first, as it can be much harder to get it granted at a later date. She also said that the LA will want to make a mainstream work where possible.

However, some won’t allow you to visit until after the LA has consulted as part of the EHCP process

Thank you for your input. I can understand why the would need to restrict visiting for the children’s sake. However I would find it hard to name somewhere unless I had visited first.

Post edited by MNHQ at poster's request

The LA will want to focus on mainstream. It saves money. However, if you start mainstream and later pursue a specialist placement, having stated specialist school was your preference previously wouldn’t make any difference to the decision made at a later date. But, it can sometimes be harder to get a special school named at non-standard admission points because it can sometimes mean the LA is more likely to be able to prove incompatibility.

As unpleasant as your experience this morning was, and I am not diminishing that, some schools do try to put parents off, a school who is open and honest about their structural limitations is far better than one who tries to gloss over the difficulties they face and hide them, IMO. Or one who tries to pretend to be supportive and promises the world until they get bums on seats when all pretence stops and no support is provided.

Unfortunately it is far better to be told the reality about what schools can provide than be promised that everything is possible and find that it's not.

It's also the case that schools get a reputation for being good with SEN, loads of SEN parents sign up for it, school then becomes overwhelmed and is unable to help more than a handful of children. So quite a lot will definitely say what they think will dissuade parents.

At primary, nearly 30% of the children in DD's class were SEN, but all the attention went on the disruptive boys, and despite having significant needs, everything in her plan was ignored and she was used to separate the disruptive children.

Basically everyone has needs in school - whether that is significant SEN with an EHCP, or just the ability to learn in a classroom that isn't disrupted and where the teacher's time is fairly distributed. Otherwise schools have parents complaining on all fronts.

As unpleasant as your experience this morning was, and I am not diminishing that, some schools do try to put parents off, a school who is open and honest about their structural limitations is far better than one who tries to gloss over the difficulties they face and hide them, IMO

BrightYellowTrain
Thank you. Agreed about the honesty. I would so much rather this, so I can make an informed decision. However what I experienced today felt off - the only representation of SEN was a ‘can’t do attitude’, nothing to say how they can support any level of SEN within the classrooms. It was my experience that they were not interested in even having the conversation and in fact I could be totally wrong here but I got the impression they were not being honest about the fact that it’s something that they don’t want at the school - given how hard they were pushing their excellence in reading and writing levels as a pitch for new parents. All that being said, great information to have, it is what it is and I wouldn’t for a second think of sending my DC there after what I have experienced.

OhCrumbsWhereNow

It's also the case that schools get a reputation for being good with SEN, loads of SEN parents sign up for it, school then becomes overwhelmed and is unable to help more than a handful of children. So quite a lot will definitely say what they think will dissuade parents.

Yes I’ve heard, this was the case at a school I looked round last week and they were overwhelmed with the SEN needs there.

Quite a different story at this place today - they had one child in their last year with an Ehcp plan and a very low number receiving additional support funding, so yes they were in the bracket of putting people off.

At primary, nearly 30% of the children in DD's class were SEN, but all the attention went on the disruptive boys, and despite having significant needs, everything in her plan was ignored and she was used to separate the disruptive children.

sounds tough!

BrightYellowTrain

But, it can sometimes be harder to get a special school named at non-standard admission points because it can sometimes mean the LA is more likely to be able to prove incompatibility.

Looking for some clarity on what has come up previously in the feed. I did speak to the Speiclaist nursery today - they have said that I must name a mainstream school first on the EHCP and then it’s only afterwards you can apply for the Speiclaist school place, you can’t do it the other way round. Is that your experience?

Be careful about calculating just on the basis of EHCP or extra funding.

DD is severely dyslexic and ADHD - but we don't have either, and I would have said the vast majority of children with SEN in schools don't either (it's a huge amount of effort, time and expense to get to the stage of getting those in place) so schools are still having to provide all the SEN support without any extra funding.

they have said that I must name a mainstream school first on the EHCP and then it’s only afterwards you can apply for the Speiclaist school place

This is completely incorrect. It is not the law. And goes back to my first post about learning about the law rather than the KCC’s unlawful policies.

With an EHCP, you do not have to state a mainstream is your preferred placement at all. You can state your preferred placement is a a special school.

Regarding the school, it is probably better that these people are up front with their beastly attitudes.

As a teacher I am pretty horrified though, if not exactly surprised.

These are children.