How does your primary school with violence due to meltdown?

[CoffeeCakeAndALattePlease]

DS is 5, in Year 1.

He isn’t diagnosed - CDC assessment apt for ASC / ADHD is in November.
He is currently in the middle of the EHCNA

He finds school incredibly challenging, he has a 1:1 all day and a bespoke timetable, lots of adjustments. He doesn’t engage in much actual learning but does do a bit.

When he dysregulates he shouts/growls, runs away and if he really escalates then he lashes out. We are very clear with him that hurting others in unacceptable and talk it through once he’s regulated and in a place to take it onboard. He will apologise for hurting people, though he lacks empathy and I’m not completely sure he understands why it’s not ok.

He has now had 2 x 1/2 day suspensions for kicking a teacher when having a meltdown. Both times, once he has regulated, he has apologised and given them a hug and then moved on to his next activity.

Im just curious whether it’s unreasonable to think that a suspension is a disproportionate outcome? I’m not for a second suggesting that kicking is ok, it obviously isn’t and I’m very clear with DS that his actions were not ok.
However, things that I find frustrating about it being a suspension are:

1. he sees it as a great outcome - he gets to come home and spend time with me and play.
2. he doesn’t link the action to the consequence at all, even when it’s explained.
3. he didn’t kick out of malice or deliberate aggression, he was having a meltdown and wasn’t able to control himself.
4. he was able to apologise afterwards.
5. his IEP states at the top that he is excluded from the schools behaviour policy and any incidents will be managed taking his SEN needs into account.

In my view, for a single kick while dysregulated, a verbal warning and him apologising seems appropriate for a 5 year old with SEN. Perhaps a bit of time in “reflection” with a staff member if they feel more is needed?
I feel that nothing is achieved through a suspension and actually it unsettles him more!

so, after that long ramble….. I’m very interested to know how other schools manage these types of situations?

We have a reintegration meeting on Monday so I’m just preparing myself for a discussion on how to move forward.

thanks 😊

I am sorry you're going through that. I do not have direct experience of this, but you seem extremely sensible snd I would agree with you!

What week of the EHCNA process are you on? Have you requested all the necessary assessments? What support is the school currently providing? What have they tried?

The school must make reasonable adjustments and follow the statutory suspension guidance, however, many schools would suspend for kicking staff. They can do this despite the pupil’s disability if they can prove it is a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim. Have you spoken to the SENCO about alternative ways of handling the situation?

Wow. If my school excluded for every time a SEN child kicked a member of staff, we'd never keep up with the paperwork. It's a daily occurrence in some schools. That's not OK either. But it does seem disproportionate. Although it could depend on severity. I taught a 5-year-old who would kick to really hurt a person, and it had to lead to a more serious response.

Ask to meet the SENCO to discuss.

If the school offers a bespoke timetable, 1:1 support and various adjustments, are those reviewed to see what works and what might trigger the disregulation? It’s good that they have things in place, but it’s important to know what works and what doesn’t.

If you think that your son is lacking empathy and doesn’t really understand that certain actions aren’t acceptable, is there value in getting him to apologise. You say he doesn’t link the action to the consequence.

If he is subject to a suspension, can you make it really boring at home, so there’s no value to him, or would he not really understand why he wasn’t allowed to have a nice time at home?

The reintegration meeting is a chance to discuss what works, what doesn’t and what to adjust further to try to avoid more instances of suspension. It must be worthwhile offering your suggestions to try to avoid that.

Sorry for not responding - we’ve had another suspension today and it’s been very hectic juggling work etc.

assessments we’ve had so far:
EP several observations and another in Nov.
SPAL
Dietician
Communication & Interaction Team
Observation & report from a special school.
I think that’s it at the moment.

I'm after an OT assessment too.

we regularly review all of his support at school and I think up until recently they’ve been meeting most of his needs pretty well. He found the transition to his new class and teacher and TA difficult but we were expecting that.

he has definitely changed a lot recently, becoming more dysregulated at home and at school. Not pinpointed the triggers but probably an accumulation of things.

his time at home is made less exciting when suspended, purposefully. Today when I collected him he said “I’m happy to go home with mummy” but actually a babysitter came over as I had to work and there was a no PlayStation rule. Previously Grandma looked after him instead of me.

the reintegration meeting was ok and we have made some tweaks to his plan and I’ve made some suggestions. We’ll see how tomorrow goes!

What week of the EHCNA are you on?

I’ve not kept track but it’s way beyond the statutory timescale. I put a complaint in which triggered action but I haven’t looked back at dates for a while.

The normal timescales of the complaints process are too long. If the LA is in breach of the statutory timescales, email the Director of Children’s Services threatening Judicial Review. If that doesn’t work, you need a pre-action letter. SOSSEN can help with this for free or you might want to look elsewhere. If a pre-action letter fails, you can pursue JR proceedings.

I’m not overly concerned with it taking as long as it is and it is progressing. The school are generally putting excellent support in place - I’m just finding the change this week hard. Exceptionally bad timing for me work-wise to juggle suspensions, but harder for DS I’m sure. He’s probably picking up on my stress too.
Im still not convinced that a suspension teaches him anything about not kicking, but they’re not budging from that. Hopefully some of the tweaks to his plan will help.

You should be considered about the LA breaching the statutory timescales because a) if the LA refuse to issue and you have to appeal, appeals are taking a long time, b) you may also need a content (and maybe placement) appeal before you have a good EHCP (and potentially suitable placement) which would add even more time, and c) if you give the LA an inch they will take a mile and DC whose parents know the law and can advocate for them get better support. It shouldn’t be like that but it isn’t going to change in the foreseeable future.

An EHCP can also provide more support, including therapies and set out strategies for dealing with issues.

I know, but frankly I’m exhausted and don’t have much to give so ticking along is all I can do right now. Im sure I’ll have more energy to have another push in a couple of weeks.

Im a social worker and spend all day, every day chasing and fighting these things for other children relentlessly. I’m know all the legislation well. Sadly for my own dc I have very little left to give right now.

We’ll get there and we’re very nearly there now.

we had another reintegration meeting today, for the second suspension and thankfully the school have reviewed their plan and agreed not to suspend following dysregulated violence.

they agree it is counterproductive and doesn’t have the intended learning outcome. So he will remain on site instead with additional support during those periods.

we’ve put some additional things in place around teacher responses, social stories and his visual aids which needed reducing in quantity as he was overwhelmed.

it’s been a better day today

That's really positive. I suppose it was worth them trying, to see if it would reduce the behaviour. I'm really glad that they're listening to your concerns though. I think that's a really good sign.

It does seem as though communication between you and the school is positive and that together, you’re refining and adjusting the strategies for support. Really helpful that they’ve agreed to keep him in school, rather than suspending.

Such a great update! Nice when everyone sees sense.

My son is like this. We have an ASD diagnosis. He's moving from a private school where he had 121 support but made it clear he was going to be expelled eventually as their behaviour policy is so rigid, to a state with an excellent reputation for SEN support but where the isn't the capacity for 121 until EHCP comes through.
He hits me regularly too.
I don't know what to do.
He's going to be doing 90 mins a day at first. How can I get anything done in that time?
I have no life.

DGD has meltdowns (has SEN but no diagnosis yet). Now in year 2 and going OK so far and I don't think she actually hit/kicked anyone in year 1, but in pre-school and reception this kind of thing was a frequent occurrence and she was never suspended from reception but was sometimes sent home early in pre-school. I can kind of understand it if the half day suspension is on the afternoon of the same day if it happened in the morning. i.e. has meltdown, kicks someone, sent to Head Teacher's office and parent contacted to collect all in one day. I think this is what happened with DGD in pre-school. If however the suspension is the next day or a few days later then as you say a young child is not going to make the necessary connection to the offence or even recognise it as a punishment. In fact if he prefers going home early with you to staying in school all day then it is actually a reward from his point of view so not what was intended! Not sure what the answer is however. In DGD's case I think the improvement is partly her becoming more emotionally mature as she gets older and partly the school have been proactive in putting in support for her.

My DD was suspended for violence during meltdowns a few times in year 2 (usually following more than one occasion). I took advice at the time and while it was clearly an indication that she didn't have enough support, the suspension was legal as it was a safeguarding issue (totally agree the other children deserve to learn without getting hurt). I did point out they weren't detering her as a)she honestly didn't remember what she did in meltdown and b)she was on the verge of EBSA and sending her home was just feeding into that.
Since getting her EHCP and the (mostly right) support she hasn't had any suspensions as they're mostly able to pre-empt the meltdowns and give her opportunity to regulate.

Is your DS in the right school placement? My relative teaches SEN children who are supposed to be mild to moderate but they keep placing complex in her school. It appears to be because there's been a significant increase in SEN children in recent years. Sometimes the aggressive SEN children get moved after a while to a school designed to deal with complex SEN children where they probably should have been there in the first place. I acknowledge SEN children need and should have a proper place to go to school. I don't like to hear my own relative (teacher) saying she has been spat on, kicked, punched, bitten again by a pupil. I'm not sure what the resolution is but we can't have people going to work worrying they'll be routinely assaulted by their pupils. It's stressful for all concerned.

@GranPepper i have explored special schools as I too have been concerned about all involved - dc, other children and staff. At this stage all the special schools felt he didn’t reach the threshold for needing to be there. It’s al do difficult to gain a place without an echp stating that one is needed.

school have now updated his safety plan to allow staff to hold DC if he is so dysregulated that he’s going to harm anyone, which has reduced the level of staff getting hurt.

His echp assessment has now been done so we’re waiting for the outcome.

today he was finally diagnosed with adhd and the consultant paediatrician also believes he is autistic but said she can’t diagnose him alone and so it referring him to a multidisciplinary team for assessment.

At this stage all the special schools felt he didn’t reach the threshold for needing to be there.

What do you think? You may have to appeal, many do, but it is still possible to get a special school named even if the LA and school disagree. Sometimes the schools will repeat the LA party line of mainstream, mainstream, mainstream. You only need the school to agree if it is a wholly independent school.

There’s also EOTAS (also known as EOTIS) if it is inappropriate for provision to be made in a school.

No, to be honest at this stage I feel the vast major the time he can be properly supported in his current school.

If things change then I’ll definitely push for a different provision.

what seems to be key is his 1:1 getting to know his cues, as he had a new one in September. She’s getting to know him better now and is able to be more proactive rather than reactive, which is really helping.

I wish you well in resolving this for your family. I also appreciate your acknowledgement that the teachers and other staff and pupils need to not be put in harm's way. From your description, your child needs to be in a different setting.

Do be careful. Once you get the draft EHCP, look carefully at what provision is in it. Does it cover 1:1 support? It's rare that they do these days. If he is currently being provided with 1:1, it's possible that his support would actually reduce once the EHCP is finalised. Would his needs be met in mainstream without 1:1?

He definitely wouldn’t manage in mainstream without 1:1…. wouldn’t even last a day.

The Ed Psyche is recommending 1:1 to himself all day. But will see what draft says when we receive it.