Would you take your child out of preschool?

[mrscoffee]

I'm really struggling and could use some advice. My 3-year-old son has been disruptive and aggressive in nursery. The staff describe him as defiant, unprovokedly aggressive towards both staff and peers, and not following instructions. They say he operates on his own agenda and doesn’t show any remorse or emotions when he hurts someone. They suspect ASD, which runs in our family—his older brother has ASD and ADHD but is doing well and is not violent at all.

He has social-emotional delays. The constant negative feedback from the nursery is overwhelming. After another difficult conversation with the manager about how "unbelievable" it is that he hurts someone and shows no emotion, I spent all of yesterday in tears.

I feel like he picks up on the negative energy at nursery and reacts accordingly. At home, he is good, easy, and pleasant to parent, likely because we are ASD/ADHD-aware parents.

We are considering two options:

1. Sending him to nursery despite his challenging and distressed behavior.
2. Keeping him at home until reception, where he will miss out on peer social interactions but can mature more, and I can support his learning.

What would you do in this situation? Any advice or similar experiences would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you!

He has just turned 3 and problems started after changing from daycare to preschool in September. He was 2.5 years old. He moved to a more structured and more stimulating environment in a larger group. His expressive language skills are good maybe receptive language a bit behind. I told them he can follow 1 step instructions but forgets half of 2 step instructions. They said he doesn't follow any instructions. When I suggest some strategies the nursery says it wouldn't work but they also say despite the strategies they have been using don't work either. the behaviour getting worse. They also mentioned PDA (I am sure he hasn't have pda) the strategies they put in place attention box, movement breaks, timer and now and next board.

I've had those nursery meetings and I've cried too. They are awful. I'm really sorry your son is struggling

It's actually not acceptable for them to use those words to describe him. Or to say it's "unbelievable" that he hurts people without showing remorse. It's quite possible he has very limited understanding of his own and others emotions. Or he may feel remorseful and express this differently. Neither would be unusual in a child with ASD.

I don't think this nursery is a good fit because they are entirely inflexible about the strategies they use with him. I think you're right that he's picking up on the negativity towards him and that won't be helping - that was certainly true of my ASD son at times when his behaviour has been more challenging.

Are nursery willing to modify the environment more eg offering breaks outside the room, noise cancelling headphones. Do they give him individual instructions? Have they applied for additional funding or an EHCNA?

Option 3: look for a new nursery. Are there special needs nurseries near you?

Yes, they have additional funding and support plan, but the plan's written based on what nursery and us as parents said no other professionals have been involved due to long waiting times. I expect early years advisor to visit them in September. It's only term time nursery so I hope 6 week break might be useful. He is calm and happy at home, not aggressive at all.

Has DS been referred for an ASD assessment?

Has the nursery looked at the triggers? What are they doing to try to prevent escalation it the first place and de-escalate situations before they reach crisis point? Have they asked for input from the Area SENCO if they need more advice to better support DS’s needs?

You should request an EHCNA. It sounds like they are in receipt of early years inclusion funding and have an IEP (or whatever they call their SEN support plan) but it doesn’t sound like an EHCNA has been requested.

Thanks Brumtotherescue,
They haven't applied for Ehcp yet, they want me to do it after Christmas so it will hopefully be ready for Primary. Our Gp made the referral yesterday. Noone came to observe him for the support plan, due to shortage of staff. They will visit from LA in September. He is on the waiting list for SALT due to unclear speech and lisp, I have noticed that the staff doesn't understand his speech ,which caused a lot of frustration for him, and asked for referral about 4 months ago. He should be seen soon

They wrote on the report the trigger are "everyday requests , others invading his space". They told me they see absolutely no reason or pattern to his behaviour, totally unprovoked, it might be PDA. I told them to use pda strategies (I don't believe he has pda but he is clearly anxious and dysregulated) they are easy to use in a nursery. The manager said his language is not good enough. I understand their frustration but I feel like this is more like, they don't want a solution but just to tell us off and dump their negativity feeling. The problem is they are the best nursery around where we live, but it doesn't look like it's a good place for my son.

Request an EHCNA yourself now. Don’t wait. On their website, IPSEA has a model letter you can use.

There will be a reason and pattern to DS’s behaviour. They just aren’t seeing it. If one of the triggers is others invading DS’s space, does DS have a 1:1?

The best nurseries/schools aren’t always the most supportive of DC with SEN. Do you have any specialist nurseries locally &/or specialist assessment places for those going through/needing to go through the EHCP process?

Thank you for the advice. He doesn't have 1:1. He has something called Surrey Support Plan. Can you explain why I should apply myself? I am more than happy to do it myself but isn't it better if they do it as they are professionals.I have noticed what they tell me in person and what they write down in forms are different. They draw a much milder issue on paper. Is there a motive there for doing it? The manager is also the owner. I haven't seen they use any pecs either, but I know they use timer.

The benefits of you requesting an EHCNA now are you know the request has been submitted now and not at some point in the future weeks/months/terms away, you know all the relevant information has been included and DS gets the support he needs sooner rather than later. Surrey Support Plans are not statutory.

You also need you as much time as possible to get an EHCP in place before starting school. While the process takes 20 weeks if you don’t have to appeal, many do have to appeal, some more than once, and that takes time. If you have to appeal both refusal to assess and refusal to issue and DS starts school in September 2025, an EHCP won’t be in place before he starts school. Even if you plan to defer, you need as much time as possible.

Follow up all verbal conversations with emails in order to create a paper trail you can use as evidence. For a multitude of reasons, it isn’t unusual for settings to express different opinions when they have to commit to paper.

Thank you for all these advice and information. I will apply this week but I don't have any paperwork. What should I do if they reject?

You can gather evidence. For example, copies of the referrals for SALT and ASD assessments, paperwork from nursery, including the Surrey Support Plan, communication/emails with the nursery.

You can also think about submitting a subject access request to the nursery to gather more information.

If you request an EHCNA and the LA refuse, you should appeal.

Just to add to @BrumToTheRescue 's excellent advice - if nursery produce "incident" logs eg on an app, you can submit these with the report. His behaviour can evidence unmet needs.

Also, the fact that nursery have put strategies in place but not seen improvements is also evidence that you can mention in your letter (eg have the targets in his support plan changed? If not, that suggests lack of progress).

Thank you both so much. I printed out the form, will submit this week. Thanks a million!!!

You don’t have to use the LA’s form. You can use IPSEA’s model letter.

Final question, he attends to term-time nursery and it will be close till September. Should I still apply now or wait till September?

Either. If you make the request now and the nursery is closed for the summer holidays, there will be an exception to responding within the 6 week timescale if it is impractical to do so, but the LA must still respond as soon as possible. But it at least gets the ball rolling now.

Hi everyone,

I applied for an EHCP, but unfortunately, he hasn’t been seen by any professionals yet. We’re on the waiting list for both speech therapy (SALT) and an ASD assessment.

I just received an email from the Local Authority with a notification letter and a request for reports from professionals. Since we don’t have any reports yet, I’m not sure what else I can send them. I’ve already attached a copy of the nursery’s log book.

Any advice would be really appreciated!

Was this a letter acknowledging your EHCNA application? (Just checking it's not

You can't send reports you don't have, so don't panic about this. The GP who made the referral might be able to send a copy of that?

If you get any other reports from nursery, or have copies of his individual education plan, you can send those. You could also ask nursery to write a report if you think it would be helpful.

If the LA has agreed to assess, you can request the LA seeks advice and information as part of the EHCNA process. It doesn’t matter DS hasn’t already been seen by them or that there is a long waiting list.

If the LA hasn’t yet agreed to assess but has asked for further information, don’t worry, you don’t need SALT and OT assessments. You can send copies of the referrals and any other information you have. If you submitted when you posted earlier in the year, the LA is in breach of the timescales. Send one of IPSEA’s model letters about this.

Thanks BusMum and Brum, I provided current support plan, copy of log book and gp referral. You guys are right, they are just letting me know that they have received the application. I applied last week. We have been on the waiting list for speech therapy since March. Hopefully he will be seen soon. Thanks again for the support and advice.

Hi, unfortunately I have received a letter rejecting to assess my son for ehcp. It says

"X's needs do not at this time require special educational provision to be made for them
in accordance with an EHC Plan.
....

You do have the right to appeal this decision to the (SEND) Tribunal. In order to register an appeal, you must first contact an
independent mediation advisor and obtain a certificate within 2 months of the date of this
letter. Information about how to contact a mediation advisor is enclosed with this letter".

My question is should I apply for Tribunal or wait and reapply later. He is 3 years 4months old and doesn't have a language delay or cognitive delay. He still has difficulties with transitions, on his own agenda, aggressive and has sensory issues. His cognitive and gross motor development is on track.

Thank you!

Personally, I would appeal. The majority of appeals are upheld. There’s no guarantee the outcome would be any different if you wait and request another EHCNA, especially in Surrey.

Thank you Brum.

I would look to change nurseries OP. Nothing you say about this one makes it sound like it's the best one for your son. I would chose the smallest, calmest one. Can he go back to daycare otherwise? I'm assuming there's just a few children there and he'll probably find that a lot easier.

I'm waiting for DLA decision so I can move him to his previous day care. Unfortunately it's more expensive than his current one.