Was this racist?

[BansheeofInisherin]

I am in a book club with several women. Most are American, European or British. I am S Asian and the only person of colour there ( I hate that expression, but can't think of an alternative). That is not usually a problem for me. I don't hang out only with other Asians and have many non-Asian friends. However:

The book we read recently was Yellowface. If you have read the book, you will know it is about a white American author who steals the manuscript of her Chinese friend, because she believes that PoC have an advantage in the publishing world. We got on to discussing this and suddenly, one of the women said " Frankly, my husband is really annoyed at how minorities get all the top positions because of the diversity push". Another woman chimed in "Yes, my husband too can't get the job he wants because of diversity iniatives". There were nods of agreement around the table.

I didn't know what to say. I am a first generation immigrant here, and it was not easy for me to get a job. I only got one because I am pretty highly educated and have a specialist skill. Both my DH and I work with people far less educated ( They have A levels while both of us have masters).

Anyway, I went home feeling somewhat attacked. Was this racist?

I don’t think there’s any point in saying anything. You’re not going to change their minds. I would probably just disassociate myself from them as they are clearly not your friends.

Yes, you are probably right @karmakameleon . I would have called them acquaintances anyway. I don't think they thought they had said anything wrong either.

You removed my post simply for quoting your own guidelines and pointing out (politely) that it is a racist attitude to ignore the guidelines and demand that only South Asians participate in the discussion! I actually agree with OP but apparently am not to be given the chance to say so. Disgusting.

Hi there,
We've been clear in the past that posters on eg the Black or South Asian MNers boards are at liberty to specify that they're not seeking the opinions of posters who aren't eg black or South Asian.
It's possible that some posters have missed that convention, of course, but we would hope that in light of this new information they will understand the deletions made.
We would hope that this derailing would stop now.

I think you’ve seen from the posters on this thread about hat mostly people who say racist things don’t see that they are doing anything wrong and it’s very difficult to make them understand. I’d just move away quietly. I haven’t read the book but wonder how the discussion went. Did anyone else speak up?

Yes it was. If that's was me in the group, I would have spoken up in the moment. Can you maybe bring the topic when it naturally comes up in the next meeting. Rascism and unconscious bias in the workplace is why so many south Asians have their own businesses and are self employed. They got sick of being passed over for promotion.
Can't believe they were so comfortable to say that in front of you!

@BansheeofInisherin another southasian woman here. sorry you went through that. of you asked the women who said these things, they would strongly deny being racist and probably don't think of themselves as racist. however, they have a deeply ingrained sense of entitlement and internalised racism which they consciously or unconsciously disguise as 'concerns' about immigration/the state of the country/diversity in the workplace. as women of colour we face the double edged sword of racism and misogyny so there is no winning lol.

in terms of how to deal with it in the future

1. least stressful option, leave the group. maybe send an email round explaining you felt unwelcome and detail why.
2. fight ignorance with facts and explain the situation re discrimination against minority groups - people of colour/people with disabilities etc. ask them to provide evidence and statistics to back their opinions - and not just 'how they feel'. ask them about their sources (I.e. are they getting their 'facts' from what persom next door said/social media/the daily fail). if you feel comfortable, describe your experiences of workplace discrimination.
3. be a cow like me and make underhanded, indirect comments about how lazy, incompetent and unqualified their husbands must be to keep missing out on promotions and how gullible the wives must be to convinced by the excuse of "the immigrants ate my homework" I would say something like "I hate how some husbands try to pull the wool over the eyes of their partners, making excuses for their underachievement and blaming every tom, dick and Harry while they are too busy shagging around to actually make an effort at work or at home." do this at random and then direct the conversation to your workplace and how you know many men who are doing this. also ask about the educational achievements of their partners, look horrified and then say "oh how nice" in your most patronising voice and smile like a tiger. After a few weeks of this, leave. it won't change anything, but you will feel happy (or if you are a nice person, unlike me - you probably won't enjoy it)

I gotta say since brexit, racists air their views far more brazenly. its as it the brexit vote gave them a free pass

I believe it’s a duty to call out racism in all its ugly forms, wherever and whenever we see it. Discriminating against and excluding people from a discussion based solely on their ethnicity is the literal definition of racial discrimination. What you have just claimed is a mumsnet- sanctioned ‘convention’ is absolutely, unequivocally and apparently unashamedly, racism. If this is truly your ‘policy, then may I suggest you review it immediately. I’m going to bow out of this now as I have no desire to be around such repulsive attitudes in 2023. To say I’m aghast at your stance in this day and age is a huge understatement. I would seriously hope that the majority of people on here feel the same way and I also hope that mumsnet admins reflect on this at least a little bit.

Thanks @therealcookiemonster I might go for 1! Not sure yet.

Maybe not racist
but culturally inept - as in, not understanding how hard it is for POC to get those top
jobs…
white privilege comes to mind too.

I asked DS if he feels there are ‘diversity hires’ in his big 4 company. He says a couple of the bigger offices hire an unrepresentative proportion of PoC to redress previous imbalance, but that most offices it’s thoroughly proportional. Nobody gets to that level without being sufficiently competent, anyway.

I suspect there will always be individual cases that seem unfair, but that at a population level it’s thoroughly effective and justified.

Of course it was.

I was in a very similar position to you where one older white woman said she didn't enjoy the bit in a non-fiction book where women from other countries shared their experience.

That was just one reason why I stopped going to that book group which is a shame as the other attendees were lovely. But I thought we're not on the same wavelength if you're not interested in other cultures.

I also said I liked what a particular author wrote on Twitter (they are known for being inclusive) and them someone else said they found them annoying on Twitter, so again I felt these weren't my tribe.

The chair reached out to me to ask me to ask me why I stopped attending. It was mainly because I got fed up of the spending the evening on a Zoom. But it did put me off going to the in person meets when they restarted.

Yes, I would interpret this as racist as it is implying those diverse employees did not get their positions based on merit. It is no different to those people moaning about 'foreigners taking our jobs'.

I would resent someone assuming I had not earned my senior role despite me working incredibly hard to get it.

Bloody hell. Absolutely racist and I'm sorry you didn't have any back up.

Thanks everyone. I appreciate your inputs.

They're racists and their husbands are too thick to employ.
Tell them then leave the group

I cant believe that a persistent user keeps derailing a thread because she or he feels that their voice is better and their insensitive views should be included and they just white washed the op concern on racism lol my mind boggles me that this user doesn't understand that mhq 'convention' means everyone ones views are welcomed but opinions from the same minority or ethnic are better suited for response as they have the same emotional and cultural-background experience

I believe there is a term for these types of users - gaslighting