Tired and Desparate Mum

[Doods]

Dear All
I am new to Mumsnet and would gladly recieve advice on my 2 year and 2 month old who has a sleep pattern all of her own! Her typical day is woken by me at 8am and then off to nursery. She has 45 mins sleep at around 12.30 at that is all during the day. She will then come home, have dinner at 6.30pm and a bottle at 8.30pm and will then not go to sleep until around 10.30pm. I don't know where she gets the energy from! I am a working Mum with a partner and we just don't know what to do. We don't get anytime for ourselves at the moment and would dearly love some advice and any accounts of how others have dealt with similar problems.
Thankyou
Doods
Ps. It is lovely to know there are others out there who we can talk to.

Hi,Doods! Can't believe I'm the only one to answer this thread, everyone's machines must be on the blink! I would say that if you are having to wake her up at 8ish and she's still going at 1030pm then her day is skewed. I'd start waking her up at 7.30 (or earlier if you can manage it) to make her day start earlier and therefore finish earlier. Check with nursery that she isn't having more than 45 minutes sleep during the day (sometimes they tell porkies!) When you say she wont go to sleep, do you mean she sits in her cot and howls or is she not in bed? I'm known as the wicked witch in my house for insisting that bed time is 630pm for tinies ie - dinner, bath, bottle and bed. I used to say to my son - for you today is over, good night. I'm not saying he didn't howl the place down but I didn't give in. We had it the opposite to you - he used to be up at 5am ready for the day, we didn't get a full nights sleep till he was 9 months old. No TV, nothing exciting just slow sleepy stuff at the end of the day. I think my son felt he was missing stuff and would fight to stay awake, which is why I did the routine thing - no matter what or where I was. There's loads of stuff about sleeping patterns on this site, you're bound to find something that suits you and more to the point - works! The thing is, and its my own view, if you dont lay down the rules now you will have an overexcited 5-10 year old who refuses to go to bed later - what a nightmare, and more difficult to deal with!!

Doods, get a book called "Solve Your child Sleep Problems" I think it is by a Dr Richard Ferber - or something similar. I used it when my son was six months old to try to establish a routine and it worked like a dream. He is the expert on establishing good sleeping patterns and the book gives a variety of case histories and no doubt there will be one similar to your story. Well worth the £5 or £6 it cost. Mine is currently on loan to a friend - who swears by it too now - otherwise I'd give you more info!

I agree with Asbf. I've not read the book in question, but laying down the law. Our son's bed time is 8 pm. It always has been and we do not vary it at all, so it can be limiting on the one hand - i know some people take thier children out with them sometimes etc, but I really believe that the children need & deserve a good nights sleep. Even if he doesn't seem tired he surprises us by going to sleep. We never (as yet) have any protests about going to bed, although he does spometimes cry once he's there.

Thew big plus is that as well as having a good sleep, we know that at 8.01 we will have some peace & quiet, every single night.

Of course, if your daughter is used to setting the pace, she won't be too amused at you suddenly laying down the law, so no doubt you'll have a bit of a battle, but I guess you just need to ride this out with gentle firmness and it'll all sort itself out. Good luck - you deserve the break!

Dear Doods and all who find a need to read this section,
All I can say is that our first child was exactly the same and although we eventually met a few families who were going or had gone through the same thing I suspect that there are many many many more who don't admit it. Our first child now goes to sleep quite happily at 8-9pm and wakes 7-7.30am happy but it took two plus years. Our second child is following the same pattern (now just 14 months) and though I know I am the common denominator I really do all I can to make sure that we don't have to put up with late nights for longer than we have to. We tried all the books and advice (!!!) we were given with our first child needless to say we began to wonder what it would be like if we just left him to his own devices and we did then started trying all the researched books advice again and HV advice too. In the end we kept away from the subject as it was too depressing and enjoyed the early years knowing that they would soon pass. Think of all the brainy/wealthy people who need 4 hours sleep - yes I know that really doesn't help but the best help is to relax and laugh if nothing else helps. Sorry not to be able to paint a rosy picture or offer the magic solution but at least you know you are not the only going through it. As they get older and can understand a little more it gets easier for them to understand that they are not doing themselves any favours so even if they can't sleep at least they might just look quietly at a book til they nod off!!

As for more mums not responding to this page I suspect that those 45-60 min daytime sleepers are in the land of nod and so they are rushing to get some things done as it's impossible at other times when a child doesn't go to sleep early and wakes up early.

Must rush my time is almost up!

I would just like to endorse Willow2's recommendation for Richard Ferber's book "Solve Your Child's Sleep Problems". We used it for our baby, now 8 months, very successfully but it has comprehensive sections on toddlers and young children as well. Reading Ferber's case studies made me feel so much better because there was always a baby he had studied who was worse then yours! Definitely worth the money by miles! Good luck with getting your evenings back.

Wake her earlier. Definitely check with the nursery and make sure she isn't asleep all afternoon. Any chance of dinner a bit earlier?
Then a bath and a milky drink and story. Slow things right down, telly off. Keep the routine the same every night so she knows what is expected of her. Then into bed with all the teddies and some books to look at 7.30pm ish and she stays there. Good Luck.

I've just been looking for some photos in our big box in the garage and found some taken of me when sonny boy as giving us the run around - do I look tired or what!! What I meant about noone answering the thread was that usually lots of people have advice to give about sleeping problems and I usually get to the the thread after all my best gems have been given! And Quimble, yes I agree - good luck Doods in getting your evenings back! A major fear of mine was that if we didn't have time together we would end up strangers with only the kids in common. Which only made me rock solid when it came to kids running around the house after 9pm! Some people can live with that, but I cant, and I dont think that just because you've got children you can afford to put your relationship with your partner on hold. In fact quite the opposite. Here endeth the lesson, sorry to go on. Ignore me, its the wrong end of the month.

I echo Rhiannon...
Try getting her up earlier and get her in a routine every evening - she probably won't like it at first but it is well worth the effort. Gina Ford is a book I always recommend (the one called From contented baby to confident child) - there are case stories in there similar to yours and how she solved them.
If your child goes to bed but doesn't fall asleep (rather talks, sings,.... not cry) that's already very positive because they are resting this way - not stimulated by adults.

Doods you say your daughter is “woken by me at 8am” – what time would she sleep till if you left her? At weekends say? If she is still sleeping at 8am then she is probably tired. However 10.30 – 8 am @ 9.5 hours is a reasonable sleep for a child your age. My son (just turned 2) is similar – he sleeps 9.30 – 7 am. So you are not alone! However he does have a longer daytime nap of an hour or two. It sounds obvious but depends what you want – later bedtime means later morning and that suits us better. I couldn’t live with him getting up at 5am. I am not in favour of books saying children of age 2 MUST sleep 12 hours otherwise they are sleep deprived. Everyone needs different sleep and that starts from birth. If she is not unwell or grizzly then she is getting enough but as someone said below the day is just skewed slightly. Even just moving bedtime back one hour will make all the difference to you in the evening.

Her nap at 12.30 – if she really is waking after only 45 mins then it could be because she is hungry? Ask the nu

Ok so I too tried every bit of advice/suggestions/book available and I too failed but we got there in the end ie children now sleeping really well what's the point of stressing yourself and your child it helps no-one and we are all individuals even a 1 day old babe-in-arms, we all do things differently. Doods good luck but don't stress yourself to the point of stressing you all out. If you win let us know what worked wont you? (Sorry could have all been better put in a hurry.)

Doods - just a word of support, I am going through the same problems as you. Last night our son finally fell asleep at 10 pm, cried for an hour at midnight, again @ 2 am and awake and raring to go from 6 a.m. This is a typical pattern, we have tried establishing routines and will continue to do so but remember you are not alone in this.

I agree with Eulalia - if you only put her to bed at 10.30 then she is going to be tired when you wake her up at 8.00am. Try stopping the afternoon nap altogether - she sounds as though she doesn't really need it - and put her to bed earlier. Do it gradually at first, putting her to bed 15 mins earlier every day until she gets used to it.

I think I must be really lucky as my 1 year old has a 20 min nap in the morning that we are due to stop soon, a 2hr nap in the afternoon and sleeps from 8pm to 8am. We followed Gina Ford's book from when she was 3 months old, so she is fairly well established in her routine. You definitely need a break in the evening for you and your partner.

Let us know how you get on.

Hi
I don't have much new to add - just to agree with some advice that's already beeen given - but also to add that I know from talking to other people that NO advice will work for every single child - all you can do is try it - and hope!!!
I do think that it's worth reading the Richard ferber book - I bought it when Alicia was 3 weeks old ( no I didn't consider that she had problems at that age!) as at 37 all my friends had had children and a fair few had gone through hell - and I wanted to know what to do to AVOID sleep problems!!!
I would also highly recommened Gina Ford's books - I have both and follow her routines broadly speaking - tho even if you hate her routines she does have a great deal of good advice - from blackout in the room to sleeping bags - etc etc - again well worth the outlay - I have a very 'easy' baby (SO FAR!!!!!) and it must in part be due to her ....
DO read both the books and try anything that might help - but if the worst comes to the worst and it doesn't get better - then just keep coming back online - I've found this and other sites invaluble!
Bon Courage!
Julie
x

Ok so I'm out of date to add a message here but this is my first night at mumsnet. I had to add my bit because not only is the original message of despair so familiar but the advice from Chippy is spot on. There really are some children who just don't sleep. It doesn't matter what routines you follow, what books you read and what you do. My son is four and a half, he's just started school and I've been through the usual round of 'Oh, that'll get him sleeping ...' Knowing him (as I obviously do!) I just smiled politely. Sure enough he's still up till 9.30 or 10pm every night. He's exhausted, no question, but he's been like this since birth. He was two and a half before he slept through the night, he wouldn't nap in the day, he woke early, or late, or during the night ... He just doesn't like sleep and the best we can hope for is that he settles down, looks at books by himself in bed, and will drop off eventually. He's just a child who takes a long long time to wind down - this is clear from his whole approach to life. As Chippy says, in the end you have to stop worrying about it and find ways of living with it. Accepting the situation at least takes the heat off you. And don't listen to all your friends who tell you about their twelve-hours-a-night children! My second child, incidentally, sleeps like clockwork, on schedule and even without too much fuss. It's just in their nature. Good luck.

I think there is a difference, by the time the babies get to about three years old, between being asleep and being in their own rooms. Of course you can't 'make' a child sleep (though I am a fan of Richard Ferber and his book changed my life when the boys were small). However, they need to learn that you don't go wandering round the house in the middle of the night expecting drinks, cuddles, visits from Mummy, getting into parents beds etc etc. The message I think has to be that being awake in the middle of the night is boring, no-one is going to give you much attention, so you might as well stay in bed and maybe even nod off to sleep.

Unfortunately, I cannot add any constructive comments as both my two children are excellent sleepers.

My eldest (now nearly 9) has always loved her sleep. As a young toddler, she would fall asleep in the afternoon at say 2 pm, wake about 4 pm and still be in bed by 7:30 pm. Because I was working part-time, three days a week she had to be up by 7:30 but, because my mum was looking after her, I never had to feed her her breakfast or get her dressed. I would literlly wake her up and be out the front door. My mum would then give her breakfast, get her dressed, etc.

My youngest child (now aged 4 1/2) absolutely loves going to bed. On a Monday, I look after my niece and nephew after school and they are not picked up until gone 8 pm. My nephew is 2 years older than my son and they absolutely adore playing together, but when it comes to about 7:15 my son will actually ask to go to bed, even if him and his cousin are in the middle of a game. He is always in bed by 7:30 and normally wakes about 7:30/8:00 in the morning.

I am not saying I have perfect children (far from it, believe me) but I have always been quite strict about bedtime from a fairly young age. I love my sleep and just could not bear the thought of having disturbed nights or trying to get an unsettled child into bed (although that will change for me slightly as I am due to give birth in about 3 weeks time).

The only problem I am now finding is with my (nearly) 9 year old. She has no problem in going to bed at, say, 8:30 but it is the "going to sleep" that seems to be a problem.

Because I am currently 37 weeks pregnant, I am into fairly early nights (about 9:30 is the latest for me) and, invariably, when I go to bed, I find she is still awake. She is not playing or anything, just lying in bed trying to get to sleep.

Me and DH are going through rather a bad patch at the moment (I post under "should I stay or should I go") but I am quite sure that my DD is not really aware of what is going on. I saw a good friend of mine last night for a coffee, and I told her some of what we are going through and she said that she would never have guessed in a million years as my DH puts on such a good front in front of people. He doesn't shout or argue or anything like that when we are alone that my DH would be aware of, he just gives me the silent treatment and has "nasty" conversations with me.

I have been asking my DD if anything is bothering her or if anything is on her mind that is stopping her going to sleep - we do have a good, open relationship, but all she says is that she can't switch off and go to sleep. I have tried to stop her doing anything stimulating before bed time, normally she will do her "reading homework" to me before she goes to bed as a "quiet down" time but she just seems to have a problem of actually getting to sleep.

Jacquikd
my daughter had this about the same age, or perhaps a bit later.

You could try a bit of 'kidology' - tell her that lavender oil on her pillow will help her go to sleep, apply the lavender oil, and see what happens. It is actually very good for helping people go back to sleep, so it may well work. It smells nice anyway!

Thanks Copper.

I will buy some and try it. Back in July we went to Florida and when we came back we were all very jet lagged. My poor daughter was still awake about 11 pm at night and was crying because she was so tired and really wanted to go to sleep, but obviously couldn't. Actually, thinking about it, it seems since our holiday that she has had trouble sleeping. I know it has been a long time but perhaps her body clock is still up the creek, i.e. she is having trouble getting up in the morning and still feels tired, then by bed time she is over-tired and then cannot go to sleep.

I am off work tomorrow and will pop to my local health shop and buy some lavendar oil. As you say, even if it doesn't work, it will make her bedroom smell nice.

Thanks.

Lavender oil is a brilliant idea but you should only use a tiny bit of it or else it has the oppossite effect, working as a stimulator instead! Chamomile (sp?) is also meant to be effective, or a cup of warm milk, or how about a complete placebo - a teaspoon of honey or something like that? Having said that my four year old is dreadful - her current "favourite" is night terrors involving worms in the bed and monkeys at the window! Any ideas to stop over-tired, working full time mum from being too unsympathetic here - I'm in danger of just screaming at her to go to flipping sleep!

I have recently been told by my son's osteopath that there is a product (natural) that can help with switching of as my Ds has the same problem, it is like his mind is still racing & replaying his day (which then wakes him up at night) I have not tried it myself yet and from memory I think it is called esfax or eflax (I have it written down at home), you can by it from Holland & Barrett.

I thought this was an appropriate thread on which to ask for help, as I am a "tired and desperate mum". We're currently staying at my dad's for Christmas, where we all (me,dd1,dd2 and dh) sleep in the same room. For the past 2 nights (and most other times she shares a room with us), 2.5 yr-old dd has been waking up just after I go to bed, and then not going back to sleep until 3am (ish). She doesn't seem to have anything up, and she's not distressed, in fact, she's very happy to be awake and chatting. At home, I just tell her its sleepy time, and leave her to it, but obviously when we're here, I have to stay, as I can't run the risk of her kicking up a fuss and waking the older one up (and the rest of the household). I'm sure there are valid reasons for her doing this, but we aren't going to be able to do much about them, as we have to all share a room while we're here - it's a very small house. I'm more interested in any suggestions for dealing with it. I try to ignore her, but she just carries on singing, tossing and turning, calling her sister etc... Last night was the 5th night in a row I've only had 4 hours sleep (I know that might sound like heaven to those of you with a new-born, but I thought I was out of that stage now), and if the same thing happens tonight, murder may be committed! Any suggestions, anyone?

Batters, many thanks for your prompt and sympathetic reply. I'm a bit nervous about sleeping downstairs, as it may take longer to hear her if she wakes up, and therefore she may have roused the whole neighbourhood by the time I get to her! (Actually, I don't think I need to worry about her sister - they shared a bed once, and the younger one was sick, I dealt with it, stripped her end of the bed, and the older one slept on oblivious!) Dh is not actually arriving here until tomorrow, and my parents look after my niece at the weekends, so I don't like to dump my 2 on them too much. So dh may well be sleeping in the room with them on his own tomorrow!
I have told dd that she needs to stay in her own bed all night tonight, as Father Christmas will be dropping in to see what children there are here, and he won't know to bring her presents if he doesn't see her in her bed! Yes, I know it's mean, but if it gets me a good night's sleep...

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Bit late for today but if you decide to go down the Benylin route you could always have a 'dry run' during the day, to see what effect it has. It means giving them an extra dose, but at least you can closely monitor them.

I wouldn't call my very lively DD hyperactive (just challenging!) but all the sedatives exacerbated her behaviour and she went ballistic, which is why a trial might be worth doing. Hope you have a decent night's sleep, Emsiewill - I'm hoping for one myself tonight, please!