obsesing over naps but still getting it wrong. Please help!

[lazzaroo]

My Lo is just 7months. She has never been a good sleeper and does not settle herself. She sleeps by being rocked, in the car or in her pushchair. We used to have many dramatic and extreme outbursts due to overtiredness until I started making sure she was not awake longer than 1 hour and a half before another nap. This is now between 2 and 2 and half hours as she can cope with being awake more BUT....she seems incapable (apart from on rare occassion!) of sleeping longer than 40 mins during the day. So, as she is an early riser at approx 6 am she generally naps 4 times but times vary. I would love to be able to rely on her getting at least one decent nap a day. Take today for example, she hasn't been awake for longer than 3 hours at a time and yet when she woke from her last nap she was rubing eyes and yawning within 20 mins and it has just taken me 45 mins to get her to sleep. So many questions...

...does 2 hours awake seem reasonable at this age? I have tried just watching her cues but sometimes she rubs her eyes or yawns soon after waking and if we try to settle her she gets very frustrated

...when she wakes she is up for her 2 hours, so usually napping at approx 8am. Is this too long for first wake up?

....How can we become more predicatble? or do I just resign myself to the fact that she will remain an enigma!!! an example....theother day she woke at 6.15, DH took her out in the pram at approx 8am and she was asleep by 8.20pm. Came home and she slept on in the pram for 1hour and half. Lovely. We though...great...same again tomorrow....she woke at approx same time...went out in pram...watched the world go by unti finally falling asleep at 9am!!! no tears, just would not go to sleep!!!!!!

HELP!!!!!

oops..should have previewed...I meant that she hasn't been awake for longer than 2 hours at a time today!

oh yeah..think this is all complicated by teething, learning new skills etc etc. AAHHHHH!!!!

Lazaroo, my DS is 6 months, and it sounds normal to me. He can usually do about 2 hours awake before he needs another sleep. He has 3 naps a day. Occasionally he has one longer than 45 mins, but it is pretty rare.

One of the sleep books I read said that some babies are just short nappers and often appear tired, but there's not much you can do. Many grow into longer naps when they're older. I think some of it is due to not being able to self-settle: if they need help to go to sleep, they can't get themselves back off again when they have a brief awakening after the first sleep cycle. You can try intervening when they wake e.g. rocking some more etc, but it didn't work for my DS.

My own opinion is that Babies Are Random. It is frustrating, though.

Hello, I borrowed the "no cry nap solution" book from the library which was an really interesting read and has helped me get my 6 1/2 month old into a nap routine. She used to only nap for 40 minute intervals too and would not be properly refreshed on waking.

Here is her routine:
7.00am wake-up
8.30am nap for 30/40 mins
11.00am nap for 1 1/2- 2 hrs
4.00pm 20 min cat-nap
6.00/6.30 in bed, lights out.

Firtsly, my lo has never been able to go for longer than 1 1/2 hours after wake-up before needing her first nap of the day. She will then nap typically for 30 to 40 mins. She never struggles to go down for this nap.
I have been working on establishing the lunch time nap over the past four weeks with some tips from "the no cry nap solution" with a technique called "nap-blending". Basically I feed her (not to sleep) put her down and then listen out for her stirring after approx 30/ 40 mins and then as soon as I here her I creep in and do whatever it takes to get her back to sleep (feed/ cuddle/pickup/ whatever works for your lo)
before she fully wakens and then creep out. the point being that eventually they will not need you to nap-blend anymore and will go straight through, well she did today for the first time!!! 2 hour lunch time nap, I was so pleased! It really has worked for me, it might be worth a try for you too! Good Luck!

Just another thought, is your lo warm enough? We had switched my dd's sleeping bag to a 1 tog during that really hot spell and forgot to switch it back and I wandered why she was waking more and her lunch time naps had gone to pot over the weekend and then I clicked about it being cooler and her being in a 1 tog. Switched it back and she slept so much better last night and today!

I think she is waking too early and the first nap is just an extension of her night sleep. Does she sleep through at night? Does she wake grumpy in the mornings or is she happy and alert?

I think with this sort of sleeper, consistency is key. I'd start by doing her night routine at exactly the same time each day. Try to push the morning nap out to 9.30/10. After two or three days you will find she should sleep a bit longer in the mornings.

I found with my second child that during some developmental spurts, the sleep patterns changed enormously - have you tried writing them down to see if there is a natual pattern in among the flux?

I really recommend you get the dr ferber sleep book and understand how sleep patterns in infants work. It really, really helped me. My DD was shocking and the book helped me deal with it consitently. She now sleeps through from 8-6.30 and still naps in the day (she is 3). I feel had I used some of the techniques earlier, DP and I wouldn't have endured 18 months of hell and early risings due to her early morning nap!

Cargirl may well appear - she usually has very sensible suggestions.

oops - took a long time to write so x-posted with everyone else.

Thanks for your replies. I tend to think this is what suits her and most of the time she is happy and even when appearing tired seems to be dealing with it!

I have tried re-settling her before she wakes but it only works if she is asleep on me, and even then not all of the time. She usually ends up screaming hysterically as if to say...let me wake up!!! or looks at me laughing as if to say...what are you doing you crazy lady!

I think maybe catching her first nap right might help as this obviously sets her up for the rest of the day. She used to settle easily but has recently struggled more. Then I have the whole internal...are we settling her too early or too late. hence the pram experiment which solved nothing!!!

It is useful to see your routine. Out of interest...when does your little one have lunch? after she wakes from her long nap? and does she have breakfast before first sleep or after?

My LO does tend to have her second sleep at about 11am so maybe I'll give it a go.

I feel a bit like I have read so much and though so much aboutthis I have a million confused ideas swiming about in my head and are doing none of them successfully!

Some good tips above. Making the first nap a bit later can help them stop waking up so early, as if they have it soon after waking, it's actually an extension of night time sleep.

Maybe try to aim for a 9am nap, but you will probably have to stretch it by a few mins each day.

My DS' 'routine' is roughly

wake 7am
nap 1 9am ish for 45 mins
nap 2 12 / 12.30 ish
nap 3 starts between 3.15 and 5pm depending on how the day's gone.

Lazzaroo,we have been weaning her for only a few weeks so it is still early days for us. She is still only on two meals a day, she has her "brunch", lol, at 10.30am and her tea at 4.30pm. Weird times I know!
I really know how confused you are feeling, it was like that for us with her nights until we moved her to her own room a few weeks ago and now thngs have setlled down after dealing with multiple night wakings.

Thank you all!

Firstly, she is stil in a one tog sleeping bag but her room is still pretty warm. In the really warm weather she was just in a short sleeved sleepsuit.

Secondly, I agree that she is waking too early!!! but don't know how to overcome this. She used to sleep until 7, then it seems to have crept back! a few weeks ago she was wakin at 5. Not sure what has caused this. She usually wakes happy and ready for the world (for half n hour or so anyway!). Over the past few mornings when she has woken at 5 or earlier I have settled her straight back to sleep (can take up to 45 mins) by feeding or rocking. She then sleeps until approx 6.30am.

She doesn't sleep through the night. She typically wakes at 11.30pm and 3am, and I feed her both times.

Night time routine is...

5/5.30pm Tea
6pm Bath
6.20 Milk (Breast)
7pm sleep (on a good night). Usually asleep by 7.15pm

We use white noise to help her get to sleep and have recently got a blackout blind.

I did write her sleep down which is how I cam across the 2 hour awake thinkg. But now feel abit like I'm so stuck in that I can't see her real tired signs. Like I said, if I try settling he rbefore it's like she's determined not to sleep until she's done her 2 hours!! and even when she's rubbing eyes, yawning and grizzling at home I can put her in the pram and stil be walking her around an hour later (she'll still be yawning but there's obvisouly toom uch to look at!).

Thanks for the book recommendation. Wil check out Amazon!.....

Thanks AngelDog. Could try a later nap. Although find it hard to be as systematic as makin git slightly later each day as one day it can take 5 mins to settle her and the next maybe half an hour!!!! and I know that if she's awake for 3 hours and then only sleeps for 45 mins she'll be murder!!! Guess I might have to give myself a few days at home to sort it out if that's waht's really needed?

I agree that consistency will be the key...wish my DD agreed

The other thing that happens around 7 mo is the weaning kicks off. I still find it hard to tell the difference between hungry and tired as they get whingey and difficult for both. It might be worth giving her a bit of a snack/mouthful of food at the 8am nap time and see if that strings it out to half an hour later.

Are you doing regular milk/meal times? That can also help with the sleep so they aren' waking out of a nap because they are hungry.

Yeah, am trying regular feeds but it depends when she sleeps!!! viscious circle anyone!

She's ;oving her food aswell and recently much less itereste din milk. Our vague routine goes...

6-6.30am wake
6.30-7 Milk feed
7.30 Breakfast (usually cereal)
8-8.30 nap for 40 mins
10.30 Milk
11-11.30 Nap...for 40 mins!
12.30 Lunch (sometimes milk first but usually not interested so sneak it in her meal instead)
2-2.30 Nap...for 40 mins
3.30 Milk...will sometimes feed straight back to sleep...but it's rare!
5-5.30pm tea
6pm Bath
6.30 Milk

Usually have to squeeze in another nap if she has woken before 3.30pm fro her last nap.

I often try to give her milk before her 2pm nap in the hope that she'll sleep longer. She'll either not take any or take it and still wake up after 40 mins.

Can try to push breakfast back but it seems that when she gets too tired she isn't interested in eating.

Will try tomorrow

Reading the tired signs can be quite tricky, more often then not my lo gets all shouty and screechy but some times she goes very quiet and glassy eyed and stares off into the middle distance and doesn't figit as much, lol! I have read that if they are crying you have already missed there tired window and will have to wait another 20/30 minutes to get it back again.

Sorry have no advice as am in exactly the same boat.

Have the no cry nap solution but haven't tried any of the techniques for awhile.

My DD has had maybe an hour of naptime sleep today (not all at once), depite been up since 6.30am

Is your DD very sociable? I think my LO thinks she is missing out on something and that is why she only sleeps in the car/pram/on me, then she knows I'm not doing anything else

My DD is very sociable. People often comment on how Alert and knowing she is.....I think she's just plain nosey!

I think this is why the pushchair is no longer a quick sleep solution. When I took her out the other day she literally sat herself upright, lent her arms out the side like a trucker and watched the world go by for 45 mins before falling asleep!

Last night she slept pretty well. Fed at 10.45 and then didn't wake again until 4.30. I fed her and rocked her back to sleep. She slept until 6.15am. Then ready for the day! but I can cope with that I think!

Have just put her down for first nap. tried leaving her up a little longer so we'll see what difference that makes.

I don't wish to tempt fate but my little one is still sleeping after going down for nap at 11.15am. I have resettled her following lolalotta suggestion of nap blending. She woke after her usual 40mins. Rocked her back to sleep. She woke again aftera few minutesin cot but I repeated the same thing and she went back down. I gave her milk feed and a yoghurt at about 10.30am to make sure she wouldn't be hungry

This seems like much nicer way of changing habits than cc and other sleep training so will maybe stick with it.

Lolalotta - sorry for more questions but you mentioned 2 hour lunch nap. Are you still starting at approx 11am or are you trying to delay? agree that lunchtime nap would make it easier to get out and about morning and afternoon.

Well done lazzaroo. Any tips for how you got her to sleep in her cot?

Nap time goes something like this for us:

Me: Sing nap time song and close curtains, put DD down in cot, kiss her and leave room
DD: Rolls over, gets stuck, shouts
Me: Go back in and turn DD over
DD: Smiles and frantically waves arms and legs
Me: Say nap time, kiss and leave room
DD: Shout, shout, shout
Me: Sitting in living room, trying to ignore
DD: Scream, scream, scream
Me: OK can't do this anymore, go to rescue DD
DD: Smile, smile, smile, rubs eyes, whinge, whinge, whinge
Me: Packs DD into pram/car seat, go out
DD: Falls asleep after about 20 mins
Me: Return home to get washed/do chores/have cuppa
DD: Wakes up, smile, smile, smile, I don't need naps me

Arrghh!!!

I'm afraid I cheat! My little one doesn't self settle so as we are approaching nap time (if we are at home) then we go upstairs, I attempt to read a book with her in darkish room (depending on how tired she is affects how far we get!). Turn white noise on and then start pacing! I sing alittle song to her while we walk, just something stupid I've made about about 'time to go to bed, rest your head, close your eyes repeat, repeat, repeat x a million! When she is asleep I pop her in her cot. Sometimes she will open her eyes so I continue singing and usually rock her with one hand on her bottom. Usually works. If not I pick her up and we start again!

I find the white noise really helps. I just downloaded it onto my i-pod and have some speakers in her room. If she's worked up and I put it on (loader than you might tink you should!) I can actually feel her body relax. It also helops block out daytime household noise.

Thankfully it doesn't take as long these days as it used to. I used to literally walk around the house with er looking at things and talking about our day until she couldn't keep her eyes oipen anymore! it's evolved into a more purposeful go to sleep routine I thnk! Sometimes if she is overtired she iwll have a little cry to get her frustrations out but then relaxes. I wish she didn't cry at all. I have just put her down for her 11ish sleep, and it took about 10mins for her to go to sleep.

If I just put her in her cot awake (which I have tried...and won't be repeating anytime soon!) she will start off smiling, playing until she gets REALLY frustrated. She cries to the point where she looks like she might actually explode!

When we first moved her into her cot, I slept with her sheet for a couple of nights first so it would smell of me. I have also introduced a comfort blanket. She wasn't the slightest bit interested to start with but seems to be growing fond! I just make sure she has it when I feed her, when I'm settling her and when we are out in pram/car seat. I make sure it's within reach in the cot.

Blimey, little angel is still napping after going down at 11am! and I haven't re-settled her at all!

How long is this going to last!

Lazzaroo, so pleased the lunchtime nap training (heehee) is going well!
I have found that you will have some good days and not-so-good-days regarding how succesfull they are, but I really do believe it is worth persevering with the nap-blending, like I mentioned earlier we have been doing it for a good few weeks now and more often than not now she will have a good sleep at lunch time. If we have a bad day, I just try and remind myself of how much progress we have made and that tomorrow is another day to have another try, rather than upset myself about it.
Having to do a bit of nap-blending/ re-settling at night at the minute as her third tooth popped through yesterday, poor little scrap!
I am not rying to delay nap and am still putting her down at 11.00am... only because we have playgroups/ meet friends etc most afternoons starting at about 2.00pm, so this works for us at the mo!
Have you found your little one has been more cheery for having a longer block of sleep at lunchtime?

Thanks lolalotta. I can't believe she slept for 2hrs 10mins today, with no re-settling! But, am trying not to get carried away with the idea Like you say, tomorrow is another day and who knows!

I'm sure it would make such a difference for both of us. She was a bit grumpy when forst woke but think that was hunger. Then she was fine. We went out for a walk at about 3pm when she was starting to rub eyes etc but didn't go to sleep until 4.15pm. No tears though. Just drifted off. She only napped for about 25 mins but was fine then until bedtime. It has made me feel much better too as I don't feel like I've spent the whole day trying to get her to sleep!!

11am suits us too. I like us having lunch together when she wakes!

Thanks for you tips

Lazzaroo, I wonder if now she is getting a larger block of sleep in the day she might not get so overtired and may become better at self-settling? When my lo has had a really good day nap-wise after a good bedtime feed she generally goes down in her cot sleepy but awake and self-settles really well.
In the past I have also found on occasions that my lo actually just needs me to PUT HER DOWN at bedtime instead of carting her around the bedroom trying to settle her. I think in my attempts to settle her I was actually overstimulating her and overtiring her even more when all she actually really desperately wanted was to be left alone to settle off and get some peace and quiet to sleep! She normally has a little grizzle for a few minutes before self-settling but it's just her way of telling me she's tired and she wants to sleep so I go with it and try not to fuss too much unless the grizzles escalate to proper crying in which case I go in to comfort her.
I just wanted to share my experiences and tell you not to give up on the idea that one day she might be able to self-settle and to keep on having a go at letting her have a chance at it, especially now she is getting good at having longer stretches of sleep in the day! Good Luck!

Also with regards to the nap-blending, in the beginning she needing feeding in order for the nap-blend to work but as time wore on that feed turned into just a stroke of the head and a "there there, it's nap time now" or even just a "shhshhshhshh" at the doorway! So the interventions in terms of the comfort she needed got less and less! And only just this week as you found today no intervention needed at all! Yippeee!
So sweet the idea of you two lunching together!