Boob addict and startler - what to do? Please??

[PacificDogwood]

DS is 12 weeks old today, fed on demand EBF so far.
He is totally unable to self-soothe with which I do not have much of a problem; I don't mind feeding to sleep.

However: he is also unable to stay asleep unless he has boob in his mouth. Quite often there is no sucking, no suction, nipple might just fall out of his mouth, yet 3 to 5 to 8 minutes later he will startle violently (inspite of being swaddled), start rooting, will not tolerate any substitute for breast (refuses a variety of dummies, own hand/finger/thumb, tip of my little finger). If I stick my breast back in or he finds nipple again as I am still lying next to him scared to move a muscle lest I wake him , he will go back to sleep within literally seconds. And the cycle repeats... Up until now the nights had not been bad overall however last night was just awful.

He will not sleep in the pram (was walking for 2 hours with him today), hates the car, will only occasionally settle if his dad carries him around the garden and then sleep for 10-15 min. He is totally and utterly unputdownable and is miserable as overtired most of the day, every day. He always seems 'wired', hyperalert, not relaxed. I have an appointment with paeds in 3 weeks time to have him checked out. He is slow in gaining weight although is gaining every week.

Somebody out there please say they've got the Magic Bullett for this!

I know IABU for expecting an easy answer, but GAH! I have 3 other kids and This Just Cannot Go On.
He is currently in his (pretty much unused) Amby screaming his head off after I tried to get him into a deep sleep for the last 2 hours...

Have you tried the Pantley Pull Off?

Haven't done it myself but your post made me think of it.

Best of luck it sounds like no fun and yo umust be exhausted.

Yep, have been doing that. For weeks. Worked for DS1 who had also been a screamer, but not for this one. Sigh.

Who is that guy again who proposes doing the '5 Ss'? Shooshing, side lying, patting (I know, no S, but I forget what he calls it), and what are the other 2?

I had such high hopes for the Amby...

It's Harvey Karp - and they're swaddling, swinging, sucking, IIRC.

Have you tried carrying him in a sling? No good for the night but was almost a magic bullet for me (although I had to block DS's line of vision with a muslin).

Maybe he'll settle down a bit - lots of babies do from 3 or 4 months. After that time they go into non-REM sleep rather than REM sleep (IIRC they startle much more easily from REM sleep.)

Sending tea and chocolate.

Have you tried substituting the dummy after he has fallen asleep but before he falls off the boob completely. Maybe if he is still asleep he won't notice the difference once he is still sucking something, wheres he would once he woke up. Have no idea if this would work just trying to think what I would try if I were you.
Also when mine slept with us and were feeding so much I found covering my boobs up once they had fallen asleep seemed to stop them looking for them as much.
I know its tough but remember....this to will pass he won't still be doing it when he is 4 or 5!!

Ds1 had exactly this - sorry but absolutely nothing worked until we got him on meds for his reflux (which was dreadful).

Dh occasionally managed with the extractor fan/hoover on and a carrier. Not for very long and only while he walked around, mind you.

Thank you, all .

I know, I know, this too shall pass...

Dummy, any dummy either makes him gag or winds him up once he notices it is not the real thing.

I've got a brilliant stretchy wrap for him which is great for the school run, making dinner etc but now often leads to him rooting - whether I have just fed him or not.

Ah, yes, Harvey Karp. I think I'll try that tonight.

Hi Pacific - lots and lots of sympathy from me. As you have perhaps gathered, my DC1 was the (non)sleeper from hell. Once his reflux was sorted out with medication, his sleeping gradually improved with the help of (1) an amby (so don't discount yours; it may yet be useful); (2) a sleep consultant (yep, I threw ££ at the problem and, no, she didn't really tell me anything I couldn't have worked out for myself but, boy, did it help to have someone look at our individual situation and set out a plan for dealing with it); and (3) lots of sleep training. It was hard but we got there and I'm sure you will too.

If your paed appt throws up a medical problem that can be treated then, in a sense, that's good. You might not even have to consider anything like my steps (2) and (3) but, if it doesn't, maybe you could think about them. A good sleep trainer won't suggest anything involving CC, much less CIO, for a baby so young.

Thanks again.

As Sariska knows refulx was/is on our list of things it could be. Might just try him back on Zantac just to see if it helps.
Did either of you or rather your children ever have Omeprazole prescribed?

I am not sure how I would find a sleep consultant here in The Provinces ... but have never looked for one.

I tried shushing and patting this afternoon in the Amby - and he settled himself to sleep .
For about 5 minutes .

Hey ho, will persevere.

Would you say he was colicky? Even if he doesn't cry for 3 hours a day etc, does he need soothing for this long every day to prevent crying? Colicky babies apparently have brief and random spells of sleep during the day until they grow out of the colic, and they tend to sleep less at night and wake more frequently than babies without colic. I can dig out some info on it if you want.

I've not used a stretchy wrap myself so don't know if this would work, but could you sling him in a position where he can just get on and suckle?

Yes ds1 went on omeprazole. It was life saver (figuratively for me, less so for him - when he got diagnosed he was 4.5 months and weighed less than 5 kg...)

The amby was a dead loss for me with both ds1 and ds2 (who though much better than ds1, will pretty much only sleep on me)

Omeprazole, no. My DS was on motilium, ranitidine and infant gaviscon until he about 10 months old. We did see some immediate improvement but IIRC it was weeks before things really turned a corner - so hard to know if it was the drugs or just natural maturation of his digestive system.

Plenty of sleep consultants will do phone consultations - mine did for people beyond the M25. And as well as the initial consultation and plan , I got daily handholding over the phone for a week or so. If you get to the stage of thinking a sleep consultant is a good idea, I'll happily send you her details. Or you could try Millpond; they are supposed to be very good.

I do not think he is particularly colicky. He pumps, loudly and stinkily , but with v little distress.
I have given up on Infant Gaviscon because giving it to him made him so cross that he actually properly vomited a couple of times rather than just posset.

Well, he just had a dose of Ranitidine; we'll see.

ib, your poor DS1, hope he is ok now.

No, I can't feed him in the sling, am too large and saggy of boob, I am afraid. Also, I dont want to

Right I am back upstairs to see how DH is getting on with the shushing and patting...

Oh, and might get back to you re sleep consultant, thanks, Sariska.

Fair enough!

Just sending you my sympathy PD.

My DD is similar though does sleep for longer. Also very wired and hard to get to sleep during the day. Never relaxed.

Well, he is asleep in his Amby just now and I did NOT feed him to sleep . Also this is the first time he is actually sleeping in the Amby, rather than screaming in it, since he was 6 weeks old.

Did 1 1/2 hrs of shooshing and patting after a good feed and a mini-feed somewhere in the middle. Also kind of 'made' him use a dummy . It has since fallen out and I have taken it away - he did not stir .

Just looked at Harvey Karp info and do not dislike what he is suggesting. However: if you swaddle babies as he suggests how do they use their hands for sucking if that is what they want ?
DS1 was a dummy addict and at this point I would prefer DS4 to find his thumb/fingers/big toe for all I care for sucking because there is a bigger chance he will find his own anatomy again in the middle of the night IYKWIM .

Anyway, thanks for everybody's handholding today, it has helped. A lot .

I am off to bed now, nightynight.

sympathies.
we never found a magic bullet, I was so desperate for dd to suck her thumb I remember trying to put it in her mouth but she just wouldn't. She didn't go to sleep without boob till she was 9m.

Thanks, he's fine now, and a strapping great big 3 yo. He was only on Omeprazole for about 2 months, but that was enough to make him turn the corner. It did take about a week to really make a difference in the first place.

am about your ds sleeping in the amby. Ours is just clutter. Well, ds2 is only 2 months old, maybe at some point over the next 3 months...

DD is the same. She point blank refuses any sort of dummy (i have tried LOADS) and hates being swaddled. The thing that works for me is a white noise machine (which was about 20 quid off Amazon) it plays sounds such as rain, heartbeat, ocean etc (8 in all) and the rain option has been my lifesaver! I whack it on full volume when I am doing the shush/patting and once DD is asleep I turn it down a bit and leave it on for about 30 mins - by then she is usually sound asleep...

This works great for bedtime as she is upstairs, but the daytime naps are still very erratic. I have been going with the flow, allowing her to take naps as and when she likes (thinking she would be able to get what she needs) but it's not happening. This morning I have put her back down upstairs using the rain machine and she is still asleep after 40 mins. I only usually get 20 mins at best. She is 11 weeks old.

I should have added, she is EBF too and I have found that feeding/rocking to sleep doesn't work as she doesn't sleep for nearly as long. If she manages to put herself to sleep herself, she will usually sleep 9pm - 4.30am. If I feed to sleep, she is awake by 2am (or sometimes after an hour!)

curly, are you sure your DD and my DS are not secretely exchanging notes or summat ?? Totally the same here.
Did you buy an actual white noise machine or a cd? I looked at Amazon last night but got confused by the choice. Would you be able to post a linkie, purlease?

Well, last night was ok, he woke at 3, fed for 30min, was shooshed/patted for 30 min, back in the Amby, and I had to wake him @ 8 this morning to get him fed before the school run .

He is currently asleep in the car and has been asleep for half an hour already - unheard of!!

So, whether it was the Zantac last night, the cranial osteopathy the day before yesterday or the shooshing/patting I do not care, but will be doing the same thing again tonight. Keep your fingers crossed for me.

Oh, well, he is now awake.

Here's a link to the amazon page to the one i bought www.amazon.co.uk/HoMedics-Soothing-Machine-Infants-Toddlers/dp/B0027FSBFC/ref=sr_1_8?ie=UTF8&s=kitch en&qid=1275569933&sr=8-8.

There are different ones though, just search for 'white noise machine'.

Thanks, curly, I had no idea you could get specific gadgets for that kind of thing.

Darling child is now asleep in the pram in the garden - again unheard of .

You think moaning on MN has therapeutic effects, not just on the mother, but on the child too ??

You're welcome. Sounds like you are having more luck than me today...haven't been able to get DD to nap hardly at all since her 50 mins at 10am. She's misreable because she's tired, but she just won't sleep, well not for more than 20mins anyway