Can sleep deprivation kill you? Help!

[FionaSH]

I'm at the end of my tether - please can someone tell me what I should do??
My son is 23 weeks, weighing 24lb. From 8-16 weeks he would sleep 7pm-6am - we were totally spoiled, I know!! He's way off the growth charts, so even at that point it was feasible that he didn't actually need the night feeds.
Then at 17 weeks we had injections, teething and cold, oh and weaning, and it's sent him totally off course.
We have no problem getting him to bed at 7pm, but from 11pm he will wake every hour, until about 3am when he just won't settle at all until I feed him.
We've tried my husband being the one to settle him so that he can't smell the milk, but to no avail.
Yesterday the HV told me we just had to do controlled crying. Easier said than done! After an hour and a half and at the point where he was almost hoarse and making himself sick, I gave in. Then he goes back to sleep again until morning.
Everyone is telling me he isn't hungry and that I musn't feed him....but what if he is thirsty? The fact he tucks in and then goes back to sleep support this surely?? but then the fact that its the same routine every night suggests its just a habit.

With controlled crying, are you supposed to let them get to the point where they make themselves ill?? It seems barbaric to me. How can it work??

Please help - I've already been put on antidepressants and they don't seem to be doing much yet. If I could just get some more sleep I know everything would be so much better! How do people get through this???

Thanks, and sorry for the long rant!

F

Sorry you're having such a rough time - as the mother of a non-sleeping baby you have my sympathies and I can promise you sleep-deprivation won't kill you - I'm still here a year on (and still not getting proper sleep).

IMHO 17 weeks is too young to be doing controlled crying. If it feels wrong to you then it probably is, so listen to your instincts.

Does he settle when you feed him? My DS was 98th percentile from 6 weeks (and still is) but still fed once or twice in the night at that age. It could be that he's thirsty or hungry, or maybe he just needs some comfort.

What happens if you feed him when he wakes at 11pm?

Just feed him. Ds is big but had a night feed until 9m. Do what it takes to get everyone the most sleep.

Well this is what I've been thinking really - he does go back down as soon as I've fed him.

I haven't ever fed him at 11, because I've only just dreamfed him at 10....the dreamfeeding was something that I hadn't done until about 5 weeks ago, but the HV told me to start and actually I think its more trouble than its worth. He doesn't have a good feed, but if I don't do it, he wakes up at that time anyway now!!

Bicnod - he's 23 weeks now - this all started at 17 - but I think even 23 weeks is too young for controlled crying. Until you can communicate with them so they understand I don't think it does any good, just makes them frightened - (just my opinion). It was really tough last night, and then we ended up giving in anyway!!

I agree with previous posts. Why make him (& You!) go through it all, with all the upset if he settles so well after feeding?
My DS is just above the 91st & still wants a feed in the night at almost 8 months. If you really don't want to feed him, have you perhaps thought of trying to give him some water in the night incase he is thirsty? (Just another option I guess.)
Good luck. x

I'd drop the dreamfeed and just feed him when he wakes up (which will probably be around 10pm/11pm). Then hopefully you'll get a few hours out of him before the next feed. You'll get more sleep that way and he'll probably begin to do longer stretches between feeds and eventually drop down to just one.

Also, I can't recommend The No Cry Sleep Solution enough. I've never done CC or CIO with my DS, just couldn't contemplate leaving him to cry. His sleep isn't perfect but its definitely improving - he sometimes sleeps through now.

You say this started when you began weaning? What foods are you weaning him on to?

17 weeks is also classic growth spurt territory so not surprising that he's waking for more food. Make sure you're not giving him too many solids during the day, as nothing he can have at the moment will have as many calories as milk, and could be counter-productive.

Just feed him when he wakes. When he's sleeping better and in a good routine (even if that involves waking in the night for milk) then leave it a few weeks and then maybe start night weaning.

Just to reassure though, plenty of babies need night feeds until much older. (We didn't stop with DS until 16months!)

PLEASE don't do controlled crying - he's most likely waking because he's hungry. IMHO he's just too little for any kind of sleep training.

HTH

to be honest, i would co-sleep and feed on demand.

Thanks for your response Woobie - I don't actually mind feeding him, its just two HVs are telling me he shouldnt be, he's just being a monkey, got me wrapped around his finger etc and after their visits I feel earbashed into ignoring my instincts and trying to get him to sleep through!

I don't mind the 4am feed, its jsut the waking regularly before that as well. I guess if I take the pressure off myself of "he SHOULD be sleeping through" and just go with the flow and feed him, I'll feel better.

I'd love him to try taking water, but he can't use a bottle (cleft - hence the early weaning as well, and I'm introducing the sippy cup at mealtimes but I dont think he actually takes anything from it yet, and I can't bear the thought of wet pj's and clothing changes in the night!!! :-)

Just smile vacantly at the HVs and nod while letting their words wash over you.

Sleeping through shouldn't be seen as the holy grail of parenting. Lots of very happy babies (with very happy parents) don't sleep through.

Reducing the amount of time you are awake in the night should be the main aim at this stage IMO, and it sounds like feeding your LO will achieve this for you.

The HV's are spouting crap, MOST babies don't sleep through at this age.. trust your instincts

..and what Bicnod said.

I'd feed him. He wants something - whether comfort, food or drink. Give it to him and get back to sleep pronto! He is too young for the whole 'rod for your own back' routine from the HV. God, where do they get this crap from?

Fiona, am very sorry to hear this. Have you tried giving him just water or watered down milk at night? I found that doing this helped them drink more during the day and hence be less 'hungry/wakeful' at night.

With regards to controlled crying, I used it once and it did work. This was the controlled crying method I used:

Put your child to sleep as normal. When they wake up crying, wait 1 minute, if they do not stop crying then go into the room and stroke and pat them until they calm down, don't talk although you can go shh and don't pick up the baby. Leave the room, if they cry again, wait 2 minutes then go in. Once they calm down leave again. Then if they cry again wait 3 minutes and then go in. On the first night stick with a max of 3 minutes before going in. This is exhausting and also emotionally draining. So if you have a lap top, log onto mumsnet for some moral support as often another mum is doing the same thing!

On the second night, increase the waiting time to 2,3 and 4 minutes. The next night increase to 3,4 and 5 minutes. And so on, I was advised not to go over 30 minutes but luckily dd1 settled down by the fourth night so I never left her for longer than 5 minutes.

Whatever you decide to do, I just want you to know you are not alone. Loads of mums experience the same thing and you do eventually see the light at the end of the tunnel. Lack of sleep is complete torture and can do terrible things to your emotions and your overall health. So try and nap when you can, ie if your ds sleeps at all during the day, put your head down too. I also used to take advantage of any grandparent visits to sleep as well!!

Good luck, sending you hugs x

JareththeGoblinKing - he's having porridge, plus all fruit and veggies (except citrus, oh and cauliflower - the wind from that definitely kept him up the next night!)

I was told (again by the HV) that I should be cutting his milk down during the day and upping his solids. I already thought I was giving him quite a lot (6 cubes of fruit and veg 3 times a day plus a yogurt), but they've said to up it to the point where he actually refuses to eat anymore at each meal time (DS is a total piggy - I envisage a Mr Creosote moment)...

This just feels all wrong - but this is my first baby, so I feel I should be trusting the HVs to know what they're talking about.

In addition this may be a slightly different case to usual - DS has to have his cleft op in June, and they say that cleft babies are usually weaned early, as its going to be less painful to take from a spoon than to bf. But still this feels too wrong - especially when he can't take water reliably in any other way?!

Sorry, just realised your ds is 23 weeks, my dd1 was about 18 months old and had gone through a very very sleepless 3 week period when we tried it. I don't think cc is normally recommended for a baby so young so I would not do it right now.

Look at the pattern here:

"but from 11pm he will wake every hour, until about 3am when he just won't settle at all until I feed him."

He is waking at 11pm, either because he is hungry or thirsty.

You have been pressurised into refusing a feed, so you say 'no'. He resettles, but an hour later, his body wakes him because he is hungry or thirsty....

Feed him at 11 when he wakes, then see when he next wakes.

DD3 was co-sleeping and feeding constantly until 10 months. I stopped feeding her, and she doesn't want milk if she wakes. Result, I thought. A few weeks of teething/jabs etc., and she is back to waking in the night. She drinks an enormous amount of squash before returning to sleep. Poor darling is just absolutely thirsty.

JareththeGoblinKing - he's having porridge, plus all fruit and veggies (except citrus, oh and cauliflower - the wind from that definitely kept him up the next night!)

I was told (again by the HV) that I should be cutting his milk down during the day and upping his solids. I already thought I was giving him quite a lot (6 cubes of fruit and veg 3 times a day plus a yogurt), but they've said to up it to the point where he actually refuses to eat anymore at each meal time (DS is a total piggy - I envisage a Mr Creosote moment)...

This just feels all wrong - but this is my first baby, so I feel I should be trusting the HVs to know what they're talking about.

In addition this may be a slightly different case to usual - DS has to have his cleft op in June, and they say that cleft babies are usually weaned early, as its going to be less painful to take from a spoon than to bf. But still this feels too wrong - especially when he can't take water reliably in any other way?!

Thanks guys - you're reinforcing what my instincts are telling me - he isn't just taking the mickey, he is actually hungry or thirsty. And as he can't take a bottle, I don't have any choice but to bf him when he wakes. I don't mind this so much, it's the mental torture of being told one thing by the HV then my own instincts telling me another that really tires me out!! I know I'll get an earbashing when I say I've continued the nightfeeds, but I think it has to be done.

I'll just give in earlier I think, and go with trying to maximise sleep by holding out for less time!!!

Asked about weaning because when we started when DS was about 5mo (i think) he was quite unsettled by it. I gave up for a couple of weeks, and gently restarted when he was almost 6mo.

I know nothing of cleft pallette, was it just the HV that said he would need weaning earlier because of it?

Hi, I share your pain, as my DS2 was a nightmare sleeper from around six weeks till ten and a half months. He was BF and at ten months (just about xmas) he was going to sleep around 7:30pm and waking at least every 2 hours for a feed, often 1 and a half hours and yes I was a sleep deprived zombie. I also felt like it was my fault as I lay down to sleep with him and there was certainly an element of comfort involved. I was after 6 months open to giving him a bottle of formula but he just screamed like he was being murdered on the few occasions I tried so we gave in. I was so down especially comparing him to all the other babies at ten months who had been sleeping through for ages. I also read and tried some of the books methods that have been mentioned here. I rang my HV for advice. She suggested controlled crying but like you that never sat well with me and I tried it once for about ten minutes and couldn't do it.....

So what was my solution (fingers crossed, touch wood etc etc). Another mum at a playgroup who had had same problem suggested 'cuddling to sleep' and witholding the boob as a way forward. Significantly cuddling meant his back to my front so he didn't smell the milk. My playgroup friend said it worked for her and solved the problem and her DS was sleeping much better after only a couple of nights. I was sceptical but when my mum came to stay for a few days and I knew I would have some early morning support for a sleep in I went for it. Admittedly we also tried and succeeded (though I still can't believe it!) in giving him a bottle for his early evening feed and a small bottle the first time he awoke. The second, third time etc he was 'cuddled' back to sleep. Like my friend I still don't know how but after 2/3 nights he gave in and started sleeping through every other night or waking for a small bottle on the other nights. I did stop BFing at this point but was ready to do so.

I just tell my story in case it helps you or anyone else as I have so much sympathy for anyone having this probem, I truly do and I would not have thought it could get better in just a few nights but I can now vouch for that and it is wonderful!!!!.

Fiona - just don't tell them that you're continuing with the night feeds

My HV was an absolute cow (not saying yours is, just that mine was spectacularly judgemental, unhelpful, and gave my incorrect advice).

Jareth - both the HV and the cleft nurse have advised this early weaning and reduction of milk. I think the difficulty is that they're both really lovely, am have given good advice on other things, so I'm assuming they're right and I'm wrong on this.

Missytabitha - thanks for your tips! If he wakes after his nightfeed then I'll be getting my husband to cuddle him tonight!!

OMG - you poor thing. Been there with DS1 - HV advised controlled crying - didn't work at all. Upset him and me. Went thru at about a year IIRC.

DS2 (9 months) still wakes for a feed in the night. He is big and eats well during the day but obviously still needs milk at night. IMO he'll give it up when he's ready and I'm not going to stress about it.

Fiona, it is worth a try. Our situations are different but the lack of sleep the same. Logically it makes sense that if these babies are possibly enjoying the comfort of the boob, a cuddle is comforting too. I really hope you find your way forward. I'm glad reading others posts that I am not alone in not liking CC. It might sound weird but I thought I would 'have' to do it but so glad in hindsight that I haven't. Though I do respect others opinions who have found it helps.

Ignore the HV. At 10 weeks mine told me not to give ds a night feed (he wasnt waking but when he did wake in the morning it was with a dry nappy and I was worried) and also told me I would 'fail' at breastfeeding if I gave a bottle- a week later he was at the docs with dehydration.