Calling GF Mums - moral support needed!

[princesskitten]

First want to say how comforting it is to read all your messages. I have read the "sleeping through the night thread" and there is some really good advice in there. What I would like some thoughts on is should i be starting to try to influence my DS to sleep through or is he just not ready yet?

Here is the current sitch:
He is 9 weeks
about 13 pounds
eats approx as follows during day:
7am - 6oz
10.30 - 6.5 oz
2 - 5 oz
5 - 4 oz
6.15 - 3oz
10.30 - anywhere between 4 and 7oz - have real difficulty getting him anything like awake - change nappy, lights on etc - no use!

In the night he drinks about 3/4oz and always wakes between 2-3am. At the beginnging of this week I decided to try and influence him to give up his night feed - this went as follows:

Sunday night - woke at 1.30am - settled back with water and dummy, then woke at 4am - so fed him - 3.5 oz

Monday night - woke at 2.30 am settled ith water and dummy with greater difficulty - took about 1 hour! - then he woke at 4 but settled himself then fed at 5.30am

Tuesday night - slept till 4am - using core night theory decided to hold him off till 5.30 again

Wednesday - slept till 2am - water and dummy - woke at 4 and fed him

by this point exhausted by getting up all night and didn't feel like I was getting anywhere so last night just went back and fed him at 2am when he woke and then he slept (although pretty fitfully) till about 7am.

What do you think? Too early? I thought the bigger they were the earlier they would sleep through - or is he just hungry?

any advice or similar tales of woe greatly appreciated. I keep being told all will come right when he hits twelve weeks? My DH thinks I am making life difficult for myself!

I bought the Gina Ford book when dd was 3 months (now 8ish) and promptly informed my dh that we were doing everything wrong and life would be hell. He gave me a bizarre look and told me to throw the book in the bin. I didn't and do think a lot of things she says make a lot of sense, some however sent me round the bend with worry and insecurity when dd didn't 'follow the plan'.

If getting up in the night to feed/pop dummy in/whatever meant I got a couple hours more sleep, hurrah. She dropped the night feeds herself at around 4mths and now goes down at 7pm, wakes up at around 5.30am, but nods back off snuggled up with us till 7am. I was going to do the controlled crying thing at 5.30am but couldn't bear it, again dh gave me a bizarre look as if it was the most ridiculous thing in the world to consider.

I think you should go with the flow, but then I am not a strict GF follower, you will probably get conflicting advise from those that are.

My dh and your dh would probably agree that we try to make life hard for ourselves.....

oliveoil - are you my dh in disguise?!

What you say makes a lot of sense and I know I should "go with the flow" as my whole family keep telling me. It is so difficult though when it is me that is the one completely sleep deprived!

I too cuddle ds in bed from about 6am till 7 to get an extra hour ...

Interested to know other thoughts - anyone?

oliveoil - are you my dh in disguise?!

What you say makes a lot of sense and I know I should "go with the flow" as my whole family keep telling me. It is so difficult though when it is me that is the one completely sleep deprived!

I too cuddle ds in bed from about 6am till 7 to get an extra hour ...

Interested to know other thoughts - anyone?

Princesskitten - at 9 weeks your baby is incredibly young to sleep through. I honestly don't know anyone at all whose baby slept through that early. Most people still have night wakings at 6months. My ds didn't sleep through until 8 months. My vote is just to feed him. If you used to have only one night feed (LUCKY, LUCKY YOU!!) and you now have two or more, then it honestly seems bonkers to continue. One night feed is just brilliant. If you're tired, and as you are bottlefeeding, then take it in turns with your dh to do the feeds on alternate nights. One night waking is just so great at nine weeks, it might not seem it to you, but it is!

I don't mean to depress you. Because your brilliant star of a little boy only wakes up once a night at 9 weeks and sleeps 12 hours, I am sure he will go through much sooner than mine, who at nine weeks woke up all night long! Try to relax and enjoy him. Little babyhood goes so fast. He'll get there soon.

I threw my GF book away on instructions of my hv as I was getting all worked up when ds wouldn't follow her routines and it was the best thing I ever did. I decided to go with the flow and feed on demand. We had a couple of nightmare weeks but ds eventually found his own routine and slept through at about 18 weeks. It is not a nice time though I must say when you are just sooooo tired. Once weaining starts you will probably notice an improvement.

He sounds very similar to my ds (about the same weight and pattern) except that we've hit 12 weeks and are no closer to sleeping through infact we're not any closer to sleeping for more than about 3 hours.
I tried to GF ds last week but after a few nightmare days I've given up, although dd was perfect GF baby from the minute we started (although if my memory serves me correctly that was in desperation at about 4 months)
My ds always sleeps in the afternoon and not lunchtime and he's a bit young to be kept awake for very long.
IMO if he is sleeping through he evenning and taking 3-4oz's at two I would continue to feed him then. I would have thought if he was drinking that much at 2am he probably could'nt get comfortable enough to sleep properly without it.

At least if you feed him straight away there's more chance of him go straight back off. If he's not settling easily without a feed than he must want it.

Anyway I'm rambling - I to am sleep deprived!
Best of luck

Sorry to disagree, but most surveys I've read in baby magazines and polls on other sites seem to say that most (about 60% plus) babies are sleeping through by 12 weeks.

We did GF reasonably strictly from 3 weeks with ds. He regurlarly had 3 wakings in a night until about 8 weeks when it went down to one waking.

At 10 weeks he started sleeping through from the 10pm feed, which we dropped at 5 months and he's slept through 7pm - 8am since (apart from 2 nights teething and a week with gastiric flu). He was 14lbs 1oz at 10 weeks and totally breastfed.

My HV told me that the smaller the baby, the more likely they were to sleep through and I was not to expect ds to sleep through until he was weaned, which obviously wasn't the case as he wasn't weaned till almost 6 months.

Anyway, princesskitten, what I'm trying to say is don't assume it's hunger if you know he's had the correct amount of feeds during the day.
Could you give him a lttle more than 3oz at 6:15pm? For such a big bubba, what does it say on the tin for each feed amount?
The amount at 10:30pm sounds about right -it's just a top up really.

You're definitely doing the right thing offering water. Dummies are great, but probably only as a temporary measure otherwise your ds might wake every time it falls out his mouth, but that depends on the baby.
The only other thing I can think of is trapped wind - especially if he's so sleepy at the last feed - just don't put him down till you're positive he's burped every last pocket of air!
Um.. that's all I can think of...but sleeping through is totally possible at 9 weeks - honest!

princesskitten you seem to be getting a very bad view of GF - but it does work honestly. If you find using the routines works for you then continue. Just chill a little. One waking at 9 weeks is fine - Gina can be a little ambitious in her expectations. My perfect GF dd slept through once at 8 weeks, then not again until 12 weeks. So continue with the 2am feed when he wants it. I found this feed gradually got later and later in the early morning as she could go for longer. Persevere with the 10.30 feed - it is OK for him to be semi awake as long as he is feeding at the same time.

Read the Gina Ford threads for some tips on how to make the routines work. If it's making life hell for you, stop it. She's meant to help, not cause problems. But it does sound as if you have it retty much cracked - just getting a little bit over anxious.

I wasn't trying to give a negative view of GF. It worked fantastically with dd. IMO her book falls short sometimes on advice on what to do when it's not going to plan. My ds suffers badly with reflux and although he is on medication it does complicate matters and I find it more difficult to do with 2.

I realise I didn't make myself very clear before, we are still trying to stick to the nap and feed times but placing the sleepy baby in the darkened nursery is a big no, no at the moment.

I think it's easy to take the book as gospel and think that it's your fault when your baby doesn't stick to the routines. Princess kitten it sounds as if your nearly there but to repeat I wouldn't worry about 1 night time feed and if it's easier/better for you and ds I would continue for the time being

ahh - I feel better already, thanks for all your notes. I know I am a bit neurotic and I keep telling myself to just enjoy and go with it - but its difficult when you are so tired you think you might die! Anyway its the weekend so DH on duty - Hurrah.

With regards to GF routines he is a model baby in the day give or take a bit of extra sleep here and there and its not stressful to follow as he does it quite naturally. I think this is why I am getting frustrated as the way she writes the book you get the impression if your baby does that then he should sleep through and there is something wrong with him.

I don't do the darkened room staying at home thing then I would go mad - just time it so that our trips out conincide with nap times as he always sleeps in carrycot in pram really well (although rapidly growing out of carrycot - glad I spent all that money on that ...) Do others do this or do they stay at home only going out at 4? I can't believe that?

I am a GF follower but take the bits I want out of it, but have put DD down for naps etc when her book said & I generally have a happy contented baby but...it does bring other problems with it - my baby will never sleep in her pushchair & never has done since she was a newborn so I am stuck in the house during nap times. Total pain but she's 9mths now & I hope with a little training she will begin to be more adaptable.
Even following GF she didn't sleep through till she was 5ths though & I do beleive GF says this in one of her books that by 5ths they should be doing 7-7 so give it time, be patient...easy to say I know, but I used to think about all the other mums around the country who was up in the night, totally exhausted wondering when it was all going to end.
I think he's too young to sleep through but some babies do & some babies don't.....

If you're a devoted GF follower I apologise, but really, I don't understand! OK I know I was lucky, my littlies all slept through from about 10 weeks, but babies aren't computers! If they need their mum/dadsleep/milk/poo then they do and personally I think it's unreasonable to ask a liitle one to "abide by the rules" of someone who's made a lot of money from making lots of mums feel very guilty!If GF works for you then it's great, but spare a thought for the kids that I work with-they/re S/N kids and most of them can't walk/talk/be without nappies for their adult life/live till they are teenagers. Does it really matter if your little one doesn't exactly "fit the mould" that GF or anyone else says they should?! Be grateful for what you have-you'll still be up worrying about them when they're teenagers so enjoy them now! Don't try and force them into a routine, be glad they're here and enjoy them for who and what they are!!!

have you read our "still only 4 hours at 12 weeks" thread/ Highsie and I have been there too..

Hello Princesskitten. You and I sound so similar and I really sympathise with you. You've had some great advice here and there's not much I can add really. But, if you have decided to follow GF, then good for you and you stick with it, believe me it will come right and you will reap the benefits. I think sticking to the routines is very hard for the first few weeks or months but if you persevere, at some stage which varies from baby to baby, things will slot into place and you won't look back. There have been so many debates and fors and against for GF but if the routines suit you and your family then keep going I have a sort of love/hate relationship with the routines, some days I feel so bloody trapped and wish I could chill out a bit. I think all dh's whose babies are in the GF routines have similar views to yours, but countless times I have overheard my dh proudly telling friends/colleagues what a great job I've done with our dd and ds in the routines bla bla and that makes it worth it. Other times, I really don't think I would have had a clue (or very much sleep) if it hadn't have been for GF! Yesterday for example, I took my dd and ds to my auntie's for the day, ds who is 12 weeks did not cry once, was perfect in his routine and only fussed a little bit after his bath while waiting for his 6.30 pm feed.
Sorry, Princesskitten I have rambled on but please, please stick with the routines. Just remember they can be tweaked a fair bit to suit your baby's needs. I have read the book so many times, yet each time I seem to pick up more information and get a greater understanding of where GF is coming from. Just looking at what your ds has, my only comment would be at his weight I would definately increase his feeds a tiny bit, especially the 7 am, 10.30 am and 6.15. My ds starting doing the 11 pm - 7 am stint at about 8.5/9 weeks and at that stage he was having very similar to your ds but he had 5 oz at 5 pm and another 5 oz at 6.30 pm. He also never had less than 6 oz at the 10.30 feed. Be confident, experiment with the amounts and I am sure he will start to do longer stretchs. Also, your ds may be waking out of habit and if you approve of it, maybe cc might be worth a try. I know a lot of people will say it's way to early, but that's your personal choice, plus it may only take one or two nights.
I wish you all the very best and am always happy to pass on any tips or share GF experiences Keep posting and let us know who you get on.

Melly I think we were separated at birth! Ditto love/hate relationship. funny though because he had his first jabs this morning so decided to just go with the flow with him today and he just did his routine without any influence - maybe he is a computer ....

He is very happy and contented and I know I have so much to be thankful for. I think I may have to stop coffeeing with my NCT bunch who all seem to be having a much better time at night than me ... DH says they are lying!

Jollymum, you are of course entitled to that opinion, but please don't post it on threads where commited GF followers are asking for advice. We've done the whole "GF - evil witch or angel" thing many many times before and I'm so glad that Mumsnetters now seem to have accepted that diferent things work for different people. But if you really do want to open the debate again - try here . But be warned - the last GF thread turned into the yurt

princesskitten - they are lying. Everyone get so competitive about their kids - just lie straight back, it might make you feel better.
I used to put dd down for her llong lunchtime nap in her cot - I think it does help them to get used to settling themselves to sleep there. But we would often co-incide the morning nap with a trip to the shops (thank God for my family heirloom Silver Cross pram), and the pm sleep would usually be in the sling whilst I walked briskly in a vain attempt to get rid of my baby belly. I actually used to love being at home for the lunchtime sleep - it was a great opportunity to veg on the sofa, eat and watch trash TV

Thanks prufock - on both counts. I think I will lie back it could be fun! Very organised of you to go out at 9am - that's my shower time

Now I never said I was washed and properly dressed when I went out did I

prufrock-sorry if I sounded like I was putting GF or anyone down-really didn't mean to and I honestly have no desire to enter into the debate.As I said, each to his own.Apologies to anyone I've upset/discouraged about GF,it's just that sometimes something happens in life that makes you think and I had ONE OF THOSE DAYS! Besides, I don't post very often even though I've been around for quite a while and mumsnetters have really helped me through some difficult stuff. Reading other people's answers quite often answers your own questions and I just wanted to say thanks to everyone for keeping me going! Prufrock, I'm probably not worthy for the yurt! Once again, apologies and hope everyone has a good Saturday!

I'm glad you're feeling more relaxed about the routine thing. I certainly (personally) think your ds is far too young for cc (not against it, just against it so young) and doesn't need it anyway as he's doing so well. Do all your NCT group say their babies sleep all night at 9 weeks? They are lying, definitely.

Jollymum you really didn't have to apologise - my post did come over a bit snotty and I'm sorry about that. And of course you are worthy of the yurt - in fact if you were having a bad day you should have gone in there and relaxed to the smell of llama dung. Hope today is better

They don't say ALL night but they all (bar one who coincidentally is doing Gina?!) say their babies go from about 11 till 5 or thereabouts. My DS is nowhere near.

Last night slight improvement - 11 - 3 (amazing what you are thankful for isn't it!). But then crying at 4.40am - DH got up and stroked his head and gave him a suck on his dummy - we don't leave it in his mouth then back to sleep again. Now I think he is a bit little for CC but I do wonder if he starting to have problems settling himself back down to sleep when he wakes up? He went down for lunchtime nap at 11.45 and woke at 12.30 and had to be dummied back to sleep - I tried leaving him but he got really worked up. I wish there was some kind of middle ground between cc and helping back to sleep. I have left him once thinking I'll give him 15 mins and he settled in 13 ... But I felt really really mean.

Jollymum - my DH read your post and thinks you are quite right - he wanted to write back to you! so do i - i just want my sleep!!!

We wnt through a dummy needing stage at 10 weeks, it lasted exactly2 weeks and 3 days then dd decided she didn't want it anymore.

A few nights of helping him to settle (in fact even a few weeks) will not mean he will need it for ever. I do remember being where you are now, and feeling that I should be cuddling dd, but if I did it might be the first step on a very slippery slope which would end up with her sleeping with me until she was 18. But it doesn't happen that way honestly.