Calling GF Mums - moral support needed!

[princesskitten]

First want to say how comforting it is to read all your messages. I have read the "sleeping through the night thread" and there is some really good advice in there. What I would like some thoughts on is should i be starting to try to influence my DS to sleep through or is he just not ready yet?

Here is the current sitch:
He is 9 weeks
about 13 pounds
eats approx as follows during day:
7am - 6oz
10.30 - 6.5 oz
2 - 5 oz
5 - 4 oz
6.15 - 3oz
10.30 - anywhere between 4 and 7oz - have real difficulty getting him anything like awake - change nappy, lights on etc - no use!

In the night he drinks about 3/4oz and always wakes between 2-3am. At the beginnging of this week I decided to try and influence him to give up his night feed - this went as follows:

Sunday night - woke at 1.30am - settled back with water and dummy, then woke at 4am - so fed him - 3.5 oz

Monday night - woke at 2.30 am settled ith water and dummy with greater difficulty - took about 1 hour! - then he woke at 4 but settled himself then fed at 5.30am

Tuesday night - slept till 4am - using core night theory decided to hold him off till 5.30 again

Wednesday - slept till 2am - water and dummy - woke at 4 and fed him

by this point exhausted by getting up all night and didn't feel like I was getting anywhere so last night just went back and fed him at 2am when he woke and then he slept (although pretty fitfully) till about 7am.

What do you think? Too early? I thought the bigger they were the earlier they would sleep through - or is he just hungry?

any advice or similar tales of woe greatly appreciated. I keep being told all will come right when he hits twelve weeks? My DH thinks I am making life difficult for myself!

Prufrock-thanks for the message, going to find lots of llama dung now! DH went for accupuncture today (after I'd been and told him it was actually working on my stress) and although he has to be the most cynical man alive, he came home smiling and went straight to sleep for half an hour, which is what I told him would happen!). Anyway, Princesskitten, hope things are getting better..and you're all getting some sleep!

Jollymum, loads of people get upset about parenting books, we all get so defensive about our methods and ways. I think GF is only really used by mums like me, who don't have a clue what they are doing and need a bit of guidance. Usually your extended family pass down bits of advice, but when they are not there, we tend to turn to the parenting gurus. If you're happy with your children the way they are, then there's nothing to feel guilty about is there? But for clueless mothers like me, she is needed!

Princess Kitten, I didn't start reading GF until dd was 3 months old and we were very tired, very weary and very anxious! I get the feeling your little 'un is just too young for a routine just yet. I know it is annoying and frustrating, but your experiences sound very much like mine when my dd was newborn. I was feeding her every two hours at first, then gradually this cut back to every 3 hours, then every 4. By the time we did read GF I was still feeding her about 4 times a night. If your ds won't follow a routine just yet, give him another week and then try again.

I know it seems that this will never end, but it does I promise you. There will come a time when you will hardly remember the tiredness and exhaustion! As for daytime naps, once he's in his routine he will fall asleep just about anywhere, so don't let it stop you from going out. I used to take dd to a morning toddler group, when it came to her nap I would just put her on my lap and rock her, within 5 mins she was fast asleep.

Take out of GF the bits that suit you, and ignore any others that don't. I followed her advice for sleeping, for weaning from breast to bottle, a little bit for weaning onto solids (but I was more laid back about that). Our dd seemed to love the routines and I certainly loved that afternoon nap! She still has one 3 years later! Just relax and enjoy your ds at this stage, they grow up all too fast and then you'll regret spending all his babystage fretting and worrying.

Here, here Rhubarb, I too was one of those mothers who didn't have a clue and was quite happy to be told what to do by Ms Ford (and still am)
Princesskitten, how was last night? I keep thinking about you and ds because I can really identify with how you are feeling. By the way, my ds isn't quite doing the 12 hour thing yet so don't be jealous!! He does sleep 12 hours but that includes a 30 minute feed at 10.15 pm, I am very very gradually pulling this forward by 5 mins every 3rd night as per the book, but we shall see what ds does. It may well be that he will need that feed until he is weaned and if so, no problem, if not.....yippee!!
Ok, just a few other things that might help with your ds, what is his total daytime sleep now, I know you posted a few weeks ago about this and I just wondered how much he was having. It was about 9 weeks I think when my ds started to cut back on his daytime sleep which coincided with him doing the 11 pm - 7 pm bit. Does he go to sleep nearer to 7 pm in the evening now, apparently this makes a difference to whether they go longer in the night. Does he get out of his covers or is he in a sleeping bag? My ds has had a sleeping bag virtually since birth and I swear by them, I have several of differing tog rates so I can adjust according to the weather etc.
Sorry, don't mean to interrogate you just eager to help.
My ds is currently not sleeping so well at his lunchtime nap, some days he sleeps the full 2 and a bit hours, other days he wakes up and will not settle back, not sure why, possibly hunger. HV is coming tomorrow to weigh him and we are going to discuss milk quantities and weaning etc.
Anyway, let us know how you are getting on.

Sorry, just thought of something else. Although in the book in the routines section GF says to drop the split feed at 5 pm when they reach about 8 weeks, in another section she says that it is probably better to wait until they are sleeping through from the late feed until 7 am before dropping it.....so maybe your ds is like mine and needs that extra feed, worth a try? I think I posted before that my greedy ds takes 5 oz at 5 pm and another 5 oz at 6.40 pm and has been on this amount for the last 3 or 4 weeks ( he is now 12 weeks.

Hi Melly

Last night was pretty horrible. He woke up at 1.30 but by the time I had mustered the energy to get up he had stopped crying. Then he woke up at 2.15 so I fed him all sleepy when finished so back in cot then PING - eyes wide open and crying. Took ages to settle him I was up and down like a jack in a box and I ended up leaving him to cry - he settled back down in about 10 mins once I did that. Then he woke up at 4, and 5 sort of moany crying - was so fed up by this point I didn't go to him and he settled himself within about 10 mins each time (I felt really mean in the morning though). I woke up at 6.30 to hear him gurgling away so went to him feeling like death and there he was all sweetness and light smiling away - so all was forgiven of course . I really don't know what to do about him keeping on waking up - is it habit following on from his cold or what?

I really need to sort out his waking up after he has been fed at 2/3am - I am so grumpy from lack of sleep that I find it difficult to really enjoy him in the day and he is so lovely - I sent you a note about cc directly via mumsnet Melly - did you get it?

Re your questions:
He is in a grobag - has been for about 3 weeks.
Daytime sleep - he has about 45 mins in am, anything between 2-2.5 at lunch (although last few days I have had to settle him back after 45 mins - funny that your ds is having same problem - I wonder if ds is hungry too - he was pretty grouchy and chewing hands a lot today?) and then 1/2 hour in pm - he usually takes this at 4 though and today he literally fell asleep on his playmat. This then has knock on effect of him getting really grumpy at bed time and I have to put him to bed early to avoid overtired meltdown - tonight he finshed his bottle and was dozing by 6.20 ... I still split the feed - he had 5 oz at 5.30 and then 3.5 post bath about 6ish. Could you talk me through what you do with ds between 5-7 I find it really hard to string ds out - nothing takes as long as she says!

Thanks for your constant support melly - and all mumsnetters. It really makes me feel so much better.

Princesskitten

You sound like you did really right last night - if your babes settles himself down after 10 mins of grumbling then he didn't actually need you (hard but true ) and is merely learning how to get himself back to sleep. Which is the best habit to learn. You'll tune into the times when he is more unsettled and will need help. You may even learn how to sleep through mere grumbling and be a lot less tired.

good luck .

I have to say that I have alot to thank Gina Ford for. I found her book when my son was 12 weeks old and from then on we haven't really looked back, I learned so much from reading her book. Having said that I've read it about 10 times.... I only wish that I had it from day one. I know all babies are different and have different needs but I think the general idea is the same. My friends have used GF too and also have perfect, contented babies. It is well worth the effort.

Hi Princesskitten, oops sorry haven't checked my email yet so will have a look
Yep, know what you mean about what do you do with them between 5 - 7 pm. I usually do:-
5 pm - give ds his bottle which takes about 20 minutes or so, I then put him in his bouncy chair on the kitchen table......yes, I know you're not supposed to do that! I give dd her tea and most days (but not all) ds will sit in his chair while dd is eating her tea. I can usually manage to keep ds amused in his chair until about 5.45 and then I take both children upstairs for bathtime. I lie ds on his changing mat on the bathroom floor and for some reason he always seems really happy lying there having a good kick even if he has been a bit fussy before. I must admit I do string out the bath time bit, let dd have a good play in the bath etc. I bath ds second and we usually arrive back downstairs at 6.30 pm ish. If my dh is working locally he has dd while I feed ds in nursery with lights dim etc or if not I sit in the lounge and feed ds but insist on making it a quiet time and don't let dd run around being boisterous (easier said than done!).
When I had just dd and she was a small baby I just used to really string out the bathing bit to sort of fill up the time if you know what I mean.
Hope this helps because I think if maybe you can get your ds to last out until nearly 7 pm it may well help the night wakings. The other thing is maybe you could give ds the split feeds further apart, so try giving him the first bit at 5 pm or maybe just before, hopefully that should keep him going and then try to give the other bottle about 6.15/6.30 if you give them a bit further apart he may well take an extra oz or 2...just a thought. I sometimes have problems keeping ds happy between the split feeds, but I think they all tend to have "fussy" times of the day.
Re the night wakings, I think you are doing the right thing by trying to get ds to settle himself back and I'm sure he will soon get the message
Just going to check my emails now.

Thanks Melly - will try and string him out tonight and see how we get on.

Last night not v good - he woke up at 9.45pm for his feed and was clearly hungry - then he woke up at 1.15am so i fed him and then he woke again at 5am I tried leaving him but he was getting frantic so I gave in and fed him, then he went back to sleep for a bit then woke up at 6 - but feel back to sleep at 6.30 and really wouldn't be roused until 8am so gave him a bit more to eat then to try and get him back on track. with hindsight I should have tried to give him water 5am.. He is sleeping for England today - i think he may be growth spurting.

I have ordered the "core night" book that Gina recommends from Amazon today in desperation - has anyone got any experience of this?

Maybe the daytime naps are too long? Mine just had 1/2 an hour in the morning and 2 hours in the afternoon. Then I would do the bath and bed routine. At around 10.30-11.00 I would go in and give her a feed. I wouldn't switch on the lights though and I wouldn't talk to her or stimulate her in anyway. Then I think she usually had one more feed at around 4am, but I started cutting that back, giving her a little less each night until she stopped waking for it.

It does take them a while after an illness, to get back into the routine. But I still do think that at 9 weeks (or is it 10 now) it is too young to expect them to sleep through. Doesn't GF say that if your baby is not following the routine, go back to the routine for a much younger baby and gradually work your way up from that.

Sounds sensible Rhubarb - I am going to try and keep him awake longer. I am not expecting him to sleep through yet but I don't think he should be waking up more than once for a feed between 10 and 7 - and at the moment he wakes up about 3 or 4 times. What I don't get is that he "sleeps like a baby" between 7 and 10.30 and then 11 - till 2am and then post night feed it all goes belly up.

I wonder what tonight will bring ...

Hopefully a few more hours sleep
PrincessKitten, I've checked my email and can't see any message ? my email address is
[email protected] feel free to email any time.

thanks Melly - I sent you a note, hope you get it.

ds still v unsettled post 2am ... when will this ever end. it felt like he was crying all night last night

Update - ds has slept through to around 6am the last two nights Much jubilation.

What was that about counting your chickens? Back to 3.30am wake up call since last post. I am not feeding him now: either leave him to settle himself or if he doesn't within 10/15mins I just do patting and suck of dummy until he settles back to sleep. I guess he will eventually not wake up for it - don't think this heatwave helps - its boiling in his nursery and I am having trouble sleeping so can't be too hard on him!

Have been reading this thread with interest and wonder if any of you have experienced / can advise on the two problems we are currently havng with the GF routines. My DS is now 5 weeks old, and goes out like a light at 11.30/12.00 but after 45 mins of sleep, wakes and although I try to leave him for 20 mins to settle as Gina suggests, will not go back to sleep himself - however if one of us picks him up, he will happily sleep in our arms ! I know the timing coincides with him coming into his 'light sleep', and I have several times cuddled him back to sleep esp if we are out and about - have I created some horrendous sleep association problem at 5 weeks ???!!
The other prob is post his night feed at about 3.00/3.30 he will sleep for approx an hour and then wake up crying. He doesn't want feeding, sometimes has some wind (although I sit for ages burping him before putting him down to try and avoid exactly that ! - and I thought wind wouldn't take an hour to bother him?) - any suggestions as other than this he is such a happy baby but the lack of a long daytime sleep and the 2nd night waking (which feels very unnecesary) are hard to cope with ! TIA

Not sure about 2nd waking but with regards to the lunch nap...my ds did exactly the same thing at about the same age. Looking back it was hunger I think and was never resolved until he was weaned. I ended up adapting the routine after following advice of friend who also had same problem. Was rather annoyed with Gina that she didn't mention this problem at all in her book (1st edition!) leaving me to feel that I was going "wrong".

My ds ( 14 weeks ) has been doing the same thing on and off for weeks. For the last couple of days he has been really screaming the place down by 1pm after going to sleep at 12.00.
Futurity, what did you do to adapt the routine?

Well this is what my friend sent me at the time as her dd did the same thing (age about 10 weeks)

7.30 Feed
9.30 Nap
10.15 Awake and had Feed
12.15pm Nap
1pm Awake and tried to stave her off until 1.30pm for feed, managed it sometimes, sometimes she would eat at 1pm!
3.00/3.15pm Nap
3.45/4.00pm Awake and had another feed
6.00pm Last feed
7.00pm Bedtime
11/11.30pm Last feed until 7.30am.

I didn't follow it exacly as DS woke at 7 and also he couldn't last awake for 2 hours at first so mine turned into a 40 mins feed..awake for 1 1/2 hours and then 40 min nap cycle. He would also have "power nap" (v short nap) at 5.30 some days.

Seems so long ago now (he is now 18 months) but at the time caused me much stress which, on reflection, was silly but at the time was just part of the process of being a first time Mum.

I think when he started weaning he did start to sleep longer after lunch although it took a while and I did have to leave him to resettle but it did work in the end.

Message withdrawn

I did a top up feed but I don't think he went back to sleep after it so thats why I changed the routine.

Thanks futurity, I'll see what he does today! So far he's fed at 7am but was asleep by 8.20.
I'm rapidly realising that it won't do him any harm if he doesn't keep to the routine exactly. My dh keeps reminding me that ds hasn't read the book, and is a happy chubby baby, so stop worrying. I'm a new mum, worrying is what I do!

Jennyj, your morning sounds familiar - same here ! Impossible to keep him awake at 8.20 - put him down for a kick on his playgym, promptly fell asleep, even Gina's suggn of topping & tailing provoked much grizzling whilst in progress then back to sleep ! He went for his sleep at 8.30 aqnd woke at 9.20 so has had a short feed and is now happily sitting in his bouncy chair.
Futurity, nice to hear that someone else has been there, don't feel such a failure now at DS's 'nonconformity'(!) - also a first time mum, can you tell ?!
Still had the 2nd night waking last night though, almost an hour to the minute after I put him down - any suggestions ?
Thanks.

I'm afraid I can't help on the 2nd waking thing as I don't think I had that problem (I had every other problem under the sun though including a ds with reflux to make life even more interesting!!)

Hopefully someone else can assist?

Pumpkin2, ds had 2nd night wakings for a while as well, probably till about 9 weeks. We think it was because the sun was rising and although he has blackout blinds some light always manages to get through. He also had a night light in his room and once we turned that off permanently he started sleeping better.
He woke at 9am this morning and then had another doze at 10.20 for half an hour before I fed him. He's been really happy and playful so so far so good!