What's wrong with this bedtime routine?

[BettyButterknife]

DS is 2.9yo and has generally been an ok-ish sleeper, if a bit of a lark (goes through phases of 5-5.30am waking). But we've never had any problems with him going to sleep, until recently.

We put him in a bed in January, and he was doing his early waking for a month or so after that. Since then we've had a good run of going to bed ok and 6-6.30ish wakings, until the clocks changed. I made the mistake of thinking I could mess with his routine to allow us a bit of a lie-in in the mornings. Oh, what a fool I was. Basically I left it so that regardless of the clocks changing he stayed on the same time. So bedtime was 7pm, now it was technically 8pm.

Anyway, to cut a long story short, this didn't work and he ended up over-tired, up too late, and started to really mess around at bedtime. One night he was up about 60 times out of bed, and some nights he wasn't going off until nearly 9pm.

I think we've managed to improve things slightly, but he's now getting up early - 5.30am - as well as pratting about at bedtime. I'm 6 months pregnant and just don't have the energy to have to deal with his nonsense at BOTH ends of the day.

So, although I think he's overtired, there's also a weird thing where he's in bed, yawning, we read to him, he seems tired like he'll nod off, we leave him and all hell breaks loose - it's like he suddenly gets a huge wave of adrenaline and can't stay still.

Can you pinpoint what we're doing wrong with the bedtime routine?
6pm - up to the bathroom, fill the bath, undress, into the bath where he'll play for anything up to about 15 minutes, has stick-on letters which he likes us to spell words with. Then tooth-brushing, which he doesn't like much, resulting in us having to do the back ones and him protesting.
6.30ish - into his room which is already ready for bed (curtains drawn, pyjamas laid out on bed) where we put cream on for his eczema, plus a lavender 'sleep' cream , nappy, pyjamas.
He chooses 2 or 3 books to read, which we read lying in bed, him tucked in and me or DH on the bed with him.
Then a cuddle, lights out, we've got one of those Gro-clocks so we turn that on and say 'goodnight sun, hello moon', and leave the room. Normally out by 7pm.

Anything glaring that could be giving him a sign that it's time to play and not sleep? My nerves can't take this much longer

Thanks for your tips, Pixie. Last night and tonight we switched the order so that books and teeth were done before bath.

Because he was up at 5.30am yesterday, he was knackered all day. Last night he went off at 7pm but only after he asked for DH to give him a cuddle and he was off within a couple of minutes. He didn't wake until 6.30am this morning.

Routine as normal tonight, seemed to be tired - yawning during books etc - I left him at 7pm and he's been up and down about 25 times since then.

Anyone know how long blasted rapid return is supposed to take? We've been doing it for a couple of weeks now. I hate this.

Supernanny has covered this sort of thing loads of times. She just puts them back to bed and closes the door - repeatedly, with no messing.

That's what we're doing! But how long do you do it for before you give it up as a bad mistake? It's been a fortnight now...

I believe the whole thing with the rapid return is that you have to keep it up, e.g doing it one night and then not the other will only confuse the child and make it 10x worse for the child and yourself.

Sorry, Pixie, I know you have to keep doing it that evening until it works - what I mean is do you give up after a fortnight? A month? When??

We do it every night that he gets up, but he doesn't do that every night. Confusing for all of us, frankly!

Is there anything else going on? I have found with my DS when he sleep goes to pot there's something else occuring somewhere. It may be a coincidence that it happened when the clocks went forward.

Well, I am 6 months pregnant, getting bigger and more tired and rubbish as the days go by. Plus I think other people are making more reference to it in the earshot of DS. Could be it... Not sure what else it could be - much as normal in all other areas.

We're off on holiday for a week next week, so that'll probably throw us all off course anyway!

How do you address your DS's sleep issues, wasabi?

Does he go to sleep if you stay and cuddle him?

15 mins from out of bath to you leaving the room and that inclues drying and dressing plus 'nice' time. Then go.

Your routine is fine - it's your routine - but there must be NO faffing or pandering. Drying, dressing, cuddle and little story is plenty.

This has probably zilch to do with clocks and all to do with testing your resolve.

"but there must be NO faffing or pandering"

What's wrong with a bit of pandering to a toddler?

A bit of pandering is OK but this is wearing the poor woman out - and it doesn't work with sleeping problems. A fortnight doesn't sound a long time until you realise you've not had a decent night's sleep in months and your days are rubbish too because everyone is shattered.

Rapid return does work but it takes iron will - ours went on for months. Also, no "conversation" after bedtime. No pleading, persuading, begging, bribery etc. Straight back into bed and door shut.
It only fails if you "engage". I remember that line "Whoever said the art of conversation was dead, has never tried to put a five year old to bed."
So true.

I am a softie and never got on with CC or any of that nonsense, but I must agree - rapid return was the only thing that got my oldest one (terrible sleeper) sleeping (at about the same age as the OP's child).

I also switched bath time to the morning, because all the playing and splashing was over-stimulating him instead of calming him down (that may have just been a personal thing for us).

Then we'd have stories and cuddles and a lullaby in bed and then lights out, night night. If he called me, I came once and asked him what he wanted. After that, I ignored. If he got out of bed, I walked him back /carried him back, tucked him in and said 'Time for sleep now, love you, night night'. After the first time, no talking. It took about a week for him to get the message. It was very tiring (I was also pregnant and unwell), but so worth it.

But he went to sleep when his dad cuddled him. 10 minutes cuddling to sleep v. a nightmare evening of rapid return. I know which I'd choose!

It only worked the once, and besides, what happens if her DP is not available that evening - working or night out or something?

That's why I asked if it always worked - but haven't had a reply yet.

Even if her dp's away, someone will be putting him to bed. I can't see a problem if that putting to bed involves 10 minutes of cuddles.

We're having/had similar problems with our 2.1yo DS and I'm 20 weeks pg so feel your pain!

He has been testing us on the whole bedtime thing. Part of it was tiredness around clock change, but I think much of it is excitement at being able to get out of bed and explore (we don't have these problems at my parents where he is in travel cot still) and then also wanting to push boundaries given his age.

So we've brought bedtime earlier - much stricter about timing our usual slightly relaxed approach. Our routine is very similar to yours with stories after bath then lights out. I let him choose stories, but from a selection I've okayed, so they are all fairly calming stories rather than ones needing lots of noise and actions, and we read them in a very calming, soft manner. We also say night night to the photos of family on the wall, and his fish mobile, lots of cuddles and kisses and hair stroking - again to signify that it is time for sleep.

He was then just getting up, screaming, demanding water, demanding cuddles, wandering around landing, into the bathroom etc. and we kept repeatedly having to go upstairs.

So we now have quite a strict approach and basically don't even give him the chance to do this. Once the soft and cuddly phase od bedtime routine is over, we play hardball. One of us stays on landing with his door open so we can see him on the bed. I just sit and read while he settles, so it doesn't feel like completely wasted time. We repeatedly say "back on the bed please, it's time to sleep" in stern but not shouty voice every time he makes a move. Catching him in the act of getting down makes him think twice, whereas once he's down he's wandering around looking at stuff. No chat other than this. No cuddles despite demands. He gets one chance for a big drink of water if he asks but then no more. He eventually gets bored and the movements get fewer and he then settles down. Usually asleep within 30 mins. Not all nights, but more often than not now, and can get him to sleep within 15 mins on miracle nights

If he comes out of the room, we are completely silent apart from "back on the bed please it's time for sleep" - no cuddles or eye contact, and just shepherd him back in. And eventually if really bad (maybe 1 or 2 nights a week) we just close the door and leave. Cries for no more than 5 mins, then gives up and sleeps.

As far as we can tell it is all about boring him to sleep by not entertaining his shenanigans and making sleep seem like the more interesting option! It has taken us about 3 weeks to get to a stage where he settles well most nights, 3 weeks of being very strict with ourselves about the routine as well as him!

Good luck!

I reckon they will have tried cuddling and exhausted that option.

As an aside, I wouldn't bath him every night if he has eczema.

And I agree with the pp who said that baths don't always calm, the only advantage of bath night (twice a week) in this house is that the DS are in their pjs before dinner and so "bedtime" is much quieter without any faffing about chasing toddlers to put pyjamas on.

Another good tip from a mn was to sit at the top of the stairs with a magazine if you are doing the rapid return thing.

Keeps you calm!

One other thought.

Do you know if it is genuine distress over bedtime, or is he just testing his boundaries? I would (and do) take a very different approach with DS if he is obviously distressed, but it is very clear that he is trying to manipulate us at the moment so we play firm. Even on the nights where we have to close the door, the crying is intermittent and indignant rather than distressed. If he is ever distressed then we take a much cuddlier approach to everything and I think it's important to be flexible if you think that he is upset-distressed rather than upset-annoyed about bedtime.

Yes yes yes to the magazine/book at the top of the stairs.
Years ago my mum was trying to settle my cousin to sleep (age 3) while studying. She read Richard II out loud, in an effort to bore the poor child to sleep.
The next evening my cousin got into bed and said expectantly "More Richard the Second!"
Damn and blast.

"I reckon they will have tried cuddling and exhausted that option."

She doesn't say so - she says they did it once and it worked. I reckon they haven't tried it on a regular basis because they've got this idea some people have that it's somehow "giving in" or "letting the child win" and that it is somehow absolutely imperative that small children learn to go to sleep alone. I have never understood this - baby animals are not programmed to sleep alone!