Why are health professionals so unsupportive and think that babies are evil manipulators?

[AngelDog]

DS is 12 weeks. He really struggles to get to sleep, needs loads of sleep, can only sleep in a sling during the day, and gets overtired at the drop of a hat, with unpleasant consequences all round.

I've asked various health professionals for advice on how I can help him to get to sleep more easily. The responses have been:

HV 1: Leave him to cry. He needs to go to sleep on his own. You're a neurotic mother.

HV 2: I wouldn't recommend controlled crying this young. Just leave him to cry. He needs to go to sleep on his own. He's manipulating you so that you'll hold him. You're a neurotic mother.

GP: Leave him to cry. He needs to go to sleep on his own. He's manipulating you so that you'll hold him. You're a neurotic mother.

Cranial osteopath: Try this book. It suggests controlled crying. Babies often struggle to sleep because of tension at home (= you're a neurotic mother).

Given that at least 10% of women have PND and are therefore likely to be sensistive to comments about their parenting, I didn't think that any of these comments were particularly helpfully phrased, even if I am a neurotic mother (which of course I don't think I am!)

I don't understand why babies wanting to be held by their parents is supposed to be an evil trait which must be trained out of them as soon as possible. They're babies - of course they need cuddles. They've just spent 24 hours a day for 9 months being cuddled. It's entirely natural for them to want to be held at least some of the time.

Nor do I understand why babies going to sleep on their own is some wonderful goal they must achieve within the first couple of months. If I don't think it's a problem that DS hasn't learnt how to go to sleep on his own yet, why do all the HCPs think it's a problem?

I find it hard to believe that the only people who have babies who learn to go to sleep are those who leave them to cry.

Apart from the fact that I don't agree with doing this, in DS's case it wouldn't work anyway, as once he gets overtired (which he does if he's left to scream), he can only stay asleep for 30 mins before he wakes up screaming again because he is so tired, at which point it all starts over again.

Sorry to rant; glad to get it off my chest. I can't imagine how people cope who don't know about MN and just ask the Gestapo professionals for advice.

I shall just have to continue with my hippy baby-wearing, sporadically co-sleeping, tree hugging ways in the absence of any better suggestions.

Couldn't agree more. I find that manipulation is touted as the reason for many childhood issues and I have never bought it.

Co-sleeping worked with us to some degree.

I think the answer is to stop asking health professionals and do what works for you an your baby.

I am with you on the babies need cuddles thing - mine learned to go to sleep on their own aged about 1 and it was fine

hear hear! My DS is like yours - overtired at the drop of a hat. The idea of letting him cry it out is ridiculous to me. We've been in the car when he's overtired and he just SCREAMS! We've not been able to stop for a while and he can't settle himself so screams until he chokes...

My DS is nearly 6 months old and has shown signs of being able to self settle but we're planning to do a bit of "training". However, when I read up, on the particular method we were going to adopt, that it involves leaving him to cry, I'm not so sure anymore!!

leaving babies to cry may or may not be the right thing for them. but one thing is for sure, they seldom (they do sometimes i know) learn to go to sleep on their own much before 1 or later if never left to cry. your choice how to parent your child. but i would accept either no sleep or a bit of crying. it is a trade off that a lot of parents have to make. for what it is worth i left both of mine to cry and am now wondering if that was the right thing in terms of their mental health etc so i am not putting either side of teh debate over. i just think it is an inconvenient fact that babies sleep best at a young age if left to cry.

Well, do what suits you and your kid.

I let ds cry a bit as a baby and he self-settled from an early age. It wasn't ideal, but I couldn't cope without sleep at all.

If you don't like listening to a baby crying for more than a few seconds, then you are going to have to wait a good while before you get a decent sleep. Which is absolutely fine if you can cope with that.

well said nickytwotimes. very well put.

You sound a bit paranoid to me. I can't believe all those health-professionals really told you you were a neurotic mother.

You're asking the HPs "how I can help him to get to sleep more easily" and they're hearing you say "how can i help him to sleep on his own"... and trying to answer that question instead.

Is that the question you're asking? It sounds from the rest of the post that you don't want to leave him to sleep alone, so what do you want help with?

I guess i just can't understand what you were asking the HPs? or why? do you want him to sleep more easily but still in the sling??

I would love to hear from parents who didn't leave their babies to cry if they were able to settle themselves to sleep ... has anyone experienced this? All the parents that I have met who have babies/children who don't sleep are those who won't let themselves cry to sleep .......... its your choice as a parent; personlly I found that one evening of crying (I won't say for how long as I will be slated) was worthing putting up with - my DS has always gone to sleep, in his own room, from aged two weeks, at 7pm - he still goes to bed, nine years later at 8pm - I have never had problems with him going to bed; I have friends who have children the same age who still wake every single night and come into their parents bed; if I gently suggest some form of 'controlled crying' they just won't do it (in some cases this causes huge marital problems).

It seems to me that all the professionals are giving you the same advice - but you choose not to try it??

Like fluffles, I don't really understand what you're asking.

"If I don't think it's a problem that DS hasn't learnt how to go to sleep on his own yet, why do all the HCPs think it's a problem?"
because you asked..."how I can help him to get to sleep more easily".

I have an 8 month old who has very rarely needed me, or to be left to cry (I haven't done this but I probably would), to go to sleep on her own. I always put her down for naps in the moses basket from day one and now do the same in the buggy or cot. She has slept through for about the last month (crosses fingers). I have cuddled her to sleep on the odd occasion when she has been overtired but not necessary very often.
However, we are both very laid back about daytime naps (me much more than I thought I would be!) she has about half an hour at nine, I try to get an hour at lunch but she is nosy and we tend to be out and about so this depends. She tends to catnap. Then goes 7 till 7.
We find that if she does fall asleep at 7 when feeding and we put her in the cot asleep she wakes up 10 minutes later, she prefers to be put down drowsy but awake.
My only suggestion is maybe a nightlight that puts pictures on ceiling and music? I am probably just lucky (runs for cover!)

I do agree with what you are saying regarding crying, but I don't really understand why you had to speak to so many HVs/GPs when you seem to have a pretty clear view of what is best for you and your child. Why ask? I'm not sure what answer you were expecting from them. I'm a bit .

If the question is how;

This worked for my DD who thought her cot was some sort of unusual torture method!

When he shows signs of being tired put him down in his cot.
Then gently soothe him by stroking or just handholding.
This may take a while for him to settle down, but hopefully he will respond in the end by relaxing.
Then if he starts to have sleepy eyes, cover them with your hand. Hopefully he will drop off!

My Dd was a lot older than your ds though and had being cosleeping for a few months before we had started and was very attached to sleeping with us.

Now she will go into her cot fine, but may require handholding/soothing still depending on teething and things, she is almost 11 months.

Hope this helps

My dp thought we had to pick up ds every time he cried, wouldn't leave him to cry. It drove me crazy because I was the one doing all the feeds/comforting.

DP went on boys trip when ds was nine months, I let ds cry himself to sleep five nights in a row, we haven't had the problem since.

However, the first night took nearly 3 hours and I was doubting myself by the time he gave in. By night 5 it was taking 10 minutes. You are not neurotic. Even if the hc profesionals are right, it really isn't easy.

OP, you have just written exactly what I think.

Have you read The Continuum Concept?

I am always agog at how some health professionals speak to me as if my children are my enemy.

As a Mum and as a HV I would never tell anyone that their baby was manipulating them. Babies just do not have the ability to think or reason about manipulation.
I couldn't leave DS to cry and wouldn't expect anyone else to do so for their baby either unless that's what they wanted to do.

If you're happy doing what you're doing why are you asking?
Do whatever suits you.
It suits me to allow my DDs to have a little cry to get themselves to sleep if needs be. I know they are just tired and will sleep faster and cry less if I get my timings right. DD1 is nearly 3 and sleeps well and is happy, DD2 is 6 months and in total today cried for about 3 mins before her late afternoon nap. I left her to cry for that time as she wouldn't have slept otherwise and would have cried much more at bedtime.

Sorry, I should clarify:

Fluffles, you hit the nail on the head when you said that the question I was asking was not the question they were hearing.

By helping DS get to sleep "more easily", I mean "taking less than 2 hours to drop off, and without getting him hideously overtired in the process". At the moment, only the sling achieves this. He cannot cope with being awake for more than an hour at once, o the result is hideous overtiredness, which means he finds it even harder to get to sleep. Then he becomes more overtired and takes even longer to get off, etc etc.

Having got over eight horrible horrible weeks when he was over-tired all the time, there is no way I want to get back into that situation again.

So the question was about how to help him relax / help him sleep - full stop - not how to help him sleep on his own.

Whilst I'm 'happy' doing what I'm doing with the sling (because it means he gets enough sleep not to be chronically overtired), I'd be happier with another method which would be less painful on my back.

I asked the professionals for advice because I'm a first-time mum who doesn't know all the different methods for helping babies to sleep, so I don't know if I've tried all the options available. I've tried using white noise, a dummy, rocking and patting but I didn't know whether there were other things I could try.

I appreciate that leaving babies to cry is a method of teaching them to sleep. I'm just not convinced that it's the only method. I don't think that can be right, as his night-time sleep has really improved in the last few weeks, but I've not been leaving him to cry at night.

On the neurotic mother issue, those weren't the words they used, but all said that he probably has problems sleeping because I'm stressed about it. I take comfort from the fact that DH is not particularly stressed about it and has even less success in helping DS to get to sleep than I do.

But it was the way it was said that was the issue for me: not a gentle "Do you think that the way you're worrying about this might be making it harder for DS to sleep?", but effectively telling me that I've caused him to struggle to sleep by unnecessary worrying about it. That may [or may not] be true, but I'd have thought it would be possible to broach the subject in a tactful way which didn't completely demoralise me and undermine any confidence I have in what I'm doing.

Have you tried a pram? Make sure he is fed and clean and warm and winded and it's about the time he sleeps and then go for a walk. There may be a bit of crying for the length of time it takes to get him in the pram and out the door (so make sure you have your shoes and coat on etc before lying him down), but most babies sleep once the pram is in motion.
Far less back breaking and you can visit friends at the park, do shopping or whatever while he is napping.
If you can get that established you may then feel confident to just lay him in a pram and jiggle it out of sight til he is asleep.
I know you can't bare to let him cry, but the reason some people (like me) don't mind letting a baby cry is because the longest a tired baby who is fed, dry, warm and winded will cry before sleeping is 10 mins if left alone. To me this is preferable to longer than 10 mins getting in a state. For some reason (probably due to BF) my DD often has a little cry before naps, but NEVER before her night time sleep.
Good luck with whatever works for you, it all gets much easier as time passes.

Thanks, harecare and Purplebuns - your suggestions are the kind of advice I was looking for from the HVs.

Sadly DS will no longer go to sleep in the pram or the car. I think part of the problem is that if he can see anything it is far too exciting and keeps him awake. Even in the sling he won't go to sleep unless I cover his eyes.

However, I'm sceptical of the idea that he is deliberately refusing to sleep in the pram because he knows that if he stays awake, I'll pick him up!

He is an odd thing: my theory is that he just can't relax during the day. Since 2 weeks, when he stopped falling asleep after every feed, he has never even started to spontaneously nod off during the day.

During the day he never gets drowsy - all he does is yawn cavernously, grizzle and grumble. If you leave him to drop off on his own, he will go back into wide awake cheerful mode, before eventually the overtired yelling starts, which can last for well over half an hour (3 hours was the longest it ever went on for, and that was with us doing rocking/shushing/patting etc to calm him). Mind you, it's much better than when he was younger and overtired all the time, when he wouldn't even yawn or grizzle when tired - he just flipped from wide awake & cheerful straight into the overtired hysterics.

Going to sleep in the sling usually does involve crying before he actually gets off, but it is complaining crying rather than all-out yelling, and he is generally asleep within 15 minutes rather than within 2 hours.

We did 'leave' him to cry in the pram once when we'd taken him out to try to get him off to sleep, and I'd left the sling at home, so couldn't put him in that when he started yelling. We went out when he was already tired, he started crying about 25 minutes later and then howled with increasing rage for another 20 minutes until we got home. I then picked him up; he stopped and looked at me as if to say "Phew!" and then promptly started yelling again because he was now really, really tired, at whic point it took another half hour or so to calm him down. So even if I wanted to leave him to cry, I'm not convinced that it would have any success.

EmilyStrange, thanks for reminding me about co-sleeping. I did that for a few nights when he was especially fighting sleep at night, and it really helped, but it hadn't occurred to me to try it for naps. I'll give it a go later.

IgglyBuff, I read your thread about your DS constantly fighting sleep, and it sounded exactly like DS was for the eight weeks before we started using the sling in the day. The reason I keep going with the sling all day despite it making my back ache is the dread of getting back into that situation. I do hope it improves for you soon.

I used the hand on his tummy while he was in the cot method it worked for us. DH and myself never really (tried once or twice when it got too much) controlled crying. We stayed in the room while he drifted off to sleep it was boring but it kept us sane.
Problem with the sling is that they over sleep in the sling and then its difficult to get them too sleep at night. I did not have my little one all day in the sling with me just for short trips to the shops never ever while doing housework. Please protect your back Little ones want to play with you when they get older not have watch you wince everytime you get on the floor. Human are babies for such a short time.

may I respectfully suggest the following Book 'Baby Whisper' by Tracy Hogg. I know some people don't approve of following a book but she has made parenting a lot easier in the first few years than it would otherwise for me. I did not take up every tip but alot of the advice really,really worked for us and my lovely Ds who is 5 years old and very very close to his mummy.

My DD was brilliant, would sleep anywhere, anytime until she hit 4 months, at which point she would get as you are describing, horribly overtired with no ability to self settle, screeching miserably until she passed out from exhaustion. She would only sleep in the pram or car (both when moving only, and if you stopped for more than a minute she would wake up)and absolutely nowhere else.

Rather than controlled crying (which I think is a reasonable method TBH but didn't want to go straight to that), I established a naptime/bedtime routine (lullaby while cuddling, in cot with music on, kiss for good sleep) then sat next to the cot/moses basket while singing quietly, shushing or head stroking, or any combination of the three until she fell asleep. This was two weeks of utter hell as she just shrieked and shrieked and refused to be settled. Sometimes she would shriek for an hour and a half and if she did get to sleep it was always only for 30 minutes before she surfaced shrieking again, but suddenly she started to settle more and more quickly as we persevered and she realised that I wasn't going to pick her up and take her out in the pram, and that actually her cot was lovely and comfy and safe as well. We're now at the point where she nuzzles into me when I sing the lullaby, then yawns the second she's put into her cot and is asleep within 5 minutes of gurgling to herself. I never left her on her own to cry or to feel like she'd been abandoned, but I never ever picked her up either, and eventually she got the hang of it. The waking up after half an hour seems to ahve stopped naturally as well. Now she sleeps for between 1 hour/hour and a half in the morning, anything between an hour and two hours at lunch and then catnaps twice in the afternoon. She goes to bed about 7:30 and wakes up once for a feed, then likes to get up at 6:30AM (much to my chagrin, I've never been a morning person!). The routine seems pretty bedded in, we went to stay with my mum for a couple of days and as long as we did the same thing of lullaby, music, kiss, then she dropped off just as easily in her carrycot.

So, that worked for us, but it was bloody hard work and I felt like a rotten mother for two weeks. I think if you're not prepared to do SOMETHING that invovles your baby crying whether you are with them or not, then they aren't going to learn new techniques for getting to sleep.

"HV 2: I wouldn't recommend controlled crying this young. Just leave him to cry. "
So she didn't recommend CC but suggested crying it out instead?
I agree - babies are not naughty or manipulative when they cry or want to be held/fed to sleep. They're wanting all they know and what feels comfortable to them.
Also, am I the only one who doesn't feel I can leave DD (DC2) to cry because she'll wake DS? He's only just started sleeping through himself - don't want to set that back!!