Crying it out - how long at each waking?

[DibsDabs]

Hi Ladies

DD is 8 months and in that time I have had only 2 nights of complete sleep. Having tried various other methods of helping her sleep through, this week I have decided to try and let her cry it out. The first night she woke at 11.30 and I rocked her back to sleep in my arms while she was crying ? this lasted 30 mins. She woke again at about 3 and I could only manage 15 minutes of her crying before I fed her for about 5 mins when she fell asleep. She woke again at 5.30ish and I fed her straight away. Last night I managed 40 mins before giving in and feeding her for 6 mins before she fell asleep.
In your experience, should I leave her to cry for longer/shorter? Help and advice much appreciated.

Thanks

well
you could just see how it goes
dd2's sleep habits changed alot around 8-9 months (longer naps in the day, better quality sleep at night especially from 3am onwards which previously had been pretty bad, plus resettling herself if she woke again at 6ish).
I also noticed around this time that sometimes when she woke at night she didn't sound upset as such-just awake. So if she didn't sound distressed as an experiment I tried leaving her and found she would settle herself down again after not too long. But if she was distressed or just taking a long time to settle I would go to her, check nappy, if that was ok would feed her and put her down again.
She surprised me at christmas by sleeping through and not waking up til 7.30 on christmas morning for the first time ever

Have not done night feeds since though she still generally wakes up for a burble at some point and was a bit unsettled whilst teething recently, but nurofen and cuddles sorted that out...Am still not convinced we have cracked night-sleeping altogether but am taking one night at a time (oh, and she still has a bottle at 10.30pm though we are trying to phase that out gently-she hasn't woken up for it recently)

so i think all I'm saying is while she might not be ready to sleep through right now, she might get there on her own with a little more time and hopefully a lot less angst

When I brought home DC1 my midwife said to me 'Put the baby in its cot (awake) after feeding, say goodnight, go downstairs, put a cd on and listen to a song. When the song is finished, baby will be asleep'!

Best advice I ever had - worked with both my DCs. My babies always loved their cots and didn't see going to sleep (alone) anything to fear. Of course they were fed in the night when they were really little - then popped back to sleep.

Hi DibsDabs!

Everyone you ask will have a different opinon! just ask people what they did and what they would do differently.

There are a tone of books on the matter and they all argue with each other and provide "scientific" eveidence as to why they are right.

Pick something that you and anyone else living in the house are comfortable with and go for it. Support each other when it's hard and stick in the face of others when it's working

I used Gina Ford's baby routine and controled crying to get my DS to sleep at bedtime. I'm not strong enough to do it throught the night.

When he was 6 months my DH and I took in turns to go to him. He woke on average 8 times a night so every secong time daddy went and when I went to him he got a feed. After two nights he was waking twice a night.

We left it at that and I fed him each time.

Then when I went back to work we took it night about and he started sleeping right through on DH night!

He is two now and is in most part a good sleeper, however he is very sensitive to routine. So if he skips a day at nursary for some reason we expect him to be up for 5-10 mins that night.

We removed dummy this week and so had to go back to taking it in turns but actually he's doing ok.

I think with my next I will start the Gina Ford from birth. I think i left it a bit long so was very tired and that made it hard on him as well as me.

Do what's right for you and good luck! it's worth it in the end!

showofhands could you link to the 'good research'?

I'm on a sofa recovering from an operation so can't get to my books atm.

Off the top of my head, a good starting place is cortisol corrosion, its effect on the human brain and studies around how it affects babies. 90s and early 00s research by Hofer and Levine shows how unstable and reactive babies brains are and how high cortisol levels occur if they are not responded to when crying. Gunnar and Donzella too. There's something in there about it taking till 4yrs of age for cortisol reactions to stabilise. Studies show that high cortisol levels are toxic to the developing brain, prefrontal cortex in particular. Caldji et al are good here, showing the inability to develop receptors in the hippocampus through being left to cry and this affecting how we handle stress for our entire lives.

A very, very good book on all of this is 'why love matters' by gerhardt.

Sorry I don't have the links for you right now, am under a duvet recuperating.

The Gerhardt book is very accessible by the way. It's recent research in biochemistry, psychology, neuroscience and psychoananlysis showing the long lasting effect of how we respond to babies. She's a psychoanalytic psychotherapist in Oxford.

but the effects of cortisol that would impact synaptic links and the growth of areas of the brain are repeated and ongoing aren't they? we're talking, for example, about no eye contact over the course of months. likewise lack of responsiveness from the primary caregiver.

right?

I can't quote without my books but there is research about single instances of cortisol rises and effect. Yes, the cumulative effect is far more important and identifiable but there's some good research around sleep training in isolation too.

And it's not just the biochemical and neuroscientific info but the psychological too.

The scientific research is one tiny part of my decision making process, instinct, personality, circumstances, experience, memory, trial and error etc, I parent the way I do for many reasons. I've probably made a hundred mistakes in 3 years that common sense, psychological development and science will show me in years to come. As it will for everybody and we'll all feel the peculiar and unique guilt that comes with parenting. I don't believe that the vast majority of parents make decisions without the absolute best of intentions and we all carve out our own way of doing it based on myriad considerations. I hope threads like these aid people in how to make those decisions and what the impact and altenatives might be.

I also concede that the health and mental wellbeing of a parent is an enormous determining factor on outcomes for children and each decision made is one that impacts a parent too. I don't wish to simplify it at all or imply that all parents should be adopting my own happy clappy, hippy, lentil-weaving tendencies. They are merely what make me happy.

Right, this is what I don't understand. Babies are damaged from too much crying to sleep, but I am constantly told that colic has no long term effects on baby. Surely that doesn't make sense. My son used to scream his head off for 6+ hours a day.

Nothing I could do would comfort him. I would try and hold him, but sometimes I would have to put him down.

Anyway he is a screamer. Has been since his first night. I have co-slept with him and he still screams- he actually wakes up with a ear-piercing scream.

I has gone through a period of waking every hour. However today I was on loo when he woke up, so couldn't run to him like I normally did. By time I got to him he was asleep still. Much less harm in that than his 2 months of colic.

Oh and him crying for 5 mins before sleep (which he does even when I hold him, it is just his way) or me chucking myself out a window cos I am so tired. I think him crying will do him less damage in long run.

roslily, of course some babies scream. Some because of colic, reflux, illness, some you never know why. There are two important things to remember here.

One, the harm and damage that is often researched and referred to comes from the stress caused by a parent not responding, by the baby not having a primary caregiver who comes when that crying occurs. Rocking and soothing a small baby who is still screaming for whatever reason is very different to leaving a screaming baby alone and unattended with no response.

Two, the one does not cancel out the other. Because babies cry anyway and some level of not being able to respond will occur (due to circumstances, commitments etc, say your toddler is about to pick up a knife and the baby is also crying upstairs, the toddler of course comes first), doesn't mean that leaving a baby to cry is somehow justified. I cannot protect my child from car fumes and other toxins for example but it doesn't mean I should smoke over her while she's in her cot.

Like I said, you do your best and with good intentions. You can't parent perfectly but endeavour to be good enough.

roslily, I said in an early post that the health and mental wellbeing of the mother is one of the biggest determining factors in outcomes for children so of course you make decision based on all of you. I acknowledged that nobody should follow other people's ways of doing things and that we all make decisions based on our own circumstances and what works for a family unit.

Thanks ShowofHands that makes sense. I have felt awful when reading stuff about crying and thinking how many hours he has already spent crying.

Anyway, as to sleeping you get the baby you get. Some babies sleep, some don't_ it really has nothing to do with what you do. I have coslept and BF my ds (although now he is FF) and it made no difference to how often he woke, how he woke (screaming).

Oh don't feel awful. You probably feel awful enough as it is listening to them crying without feeling guilt over something I promise you that you haven't done. It's not the crying, it's the way you respond to it that makes all the difference.

I can't imagine it. My dniece had colic and she cried for hours and hours every night. Nothing worked except waiting. She's a sunny, positive, happy toddler.

Yes to personality and sleep, you do often get what you're given. My DH is one of 4. He's a normal sleeper, has an insomniac brother, another brother who's up late and sleeps late and a sister who goes to bed early and gets up early. MIL said they were that way from birth and it's just continued.

Dont know if you still read this post after all those unhelpful comments. You have to decide whats best for you. If you want to be carrying around a 20+kg baby then stick with what doesn't work. If you dont feed him at night its not that you are depriving him of food its just that your baby is using the breast as a dummy to get to sleep as he cant do it by himself. There are lots of techniques to get your baby to soothe himself without crying but it doesnt necessarily mean that they will all work for you. Trust me the people who are soooo against CIO or CC are the same ones with broken backs rocking their kids to sleep at 9 months and shoving a boob in his mouth everytime he cries thinking that silencing their baby is actually helping him! Do whats best for you and dont be ashamed. Not every baby is the same, my baby was a terrible sleeper whereas other peoples babies slept all day long and all night and then they preached to me, a sleep deprived mother about whats best for your baby as if all babies are the same.There are a number of books on the subject, its just not popular here as Gina Ford sued mumsnet for defamatory comments made against her by some people. I believe in free speech, not only for the members on here but lets face it for Gina Ford too. Big hugs xx

I don't think others should be judging you, how are we supposed to know what is best to do when there is so much conflicting advice given to parents?