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Crying it out - how long at each waking?

67 replies

DibsDabs · 12/01/2010 10:24

Hi Ladies

DD is 8 months and in that time I have had only 2 nights of complete sleep. Having tried various other methods of helping her sleep through, this week I have decided to try and let her cry it out. The first night she woke at 11.30 and I rocked her back to sleep in my arms while she was crying ? this lasted 30 mins. She woke again at about 3 and I could only manage 15 minutes of her crying before I fed her for about 5 mins when she fell asleep. She woke again at 5.30ish and I fed her straight away. Last night I managed 40 mins before giving in and feeding her for 6 mins before she fell asleep.
In your experience, should I leave her to cry for longer/shorter? Help and advice much appreciated.

Thanks

OP posts:
hobbgoblin · 12/01/2010 18:50

My DD is also my 4th baby and I am a lone parent to all intents and purposes so I need her to sleep well, and not wake all the time and be settled by me all through the night so it is important to me that we achieve sleeping habits that work with our whole family.

Every client I see is desperate for their baby to sleep better. None ask me to help because they feel they should get their baby to sleep more so I always help achieve what the whole family needs. I think 2 min checking balances the needs of all pretty well, personally. I have had several emails saying that sleep training saved their marriage or gave the elder sibling their night of sleep back or enabled the parents to do their jobs properly, deal with depression, etc. etc. The needs of the baby are important but not the only ones requiring consideration.

FlightAttendant · 12/01/2010 18:54

TIY again a great post.

Yes, my babies used to do those cues, and ds2 still does. It is wonderful to know that at the first little wriggle and snuffle, you understand that they need to have their milk...they root around when they are still only semi-awake, and often don't need to wake fully in order to feed, if you respond in time.

Mine used to start off with the tiny wriggle, then actually put their little hand to their mouth - a kind of primitive sign I suppose, it's lovely and very special.

I swear that ds2 actually cried twice before the age of 6 months. Both times it lasted about half an hour I suppose, and he was difficult to console - I think he was starting to teethe or else perhaps had tummy ache. But seriously, twice in all that time, day and night.
It sounds very odd writing it down!! But he just didn't need to, and was lucky I suppose not to have any other physiological difficulties which would of course have made him cry more.

He did make up for it in later months though

thisisyesterday · 12/01/2010 18:54

they aren't the only ones needing consideration no.
but generally they are the only ones who are too young and vulnerable to be expected to wait, or be left to cry, or to have to fit in round what others want to do

as an adult i could think to myself god, this broken sleep is killing me. But, i know why it is happening, i can change my own habits and it won't last forever.

an older child can understand to a certain extent that a baby's needs come first

and yet it's always the baby that's the one who has to change.

hobbgoblin · 12/01/2010 18:55

I always feed 4 sides if in doubt. Instinct first, check for xmas tree needles in nappy second, quick feed just in case, after all that, let her do her thing.

thisisyesterday · 12/01/2010 18:57

flightattendant, my first was like that too!
i can remember when he was about 9 months old he fell over and started crying and this other mum looked over and was like "wow, that's the first time i have ever heard him cry"
(we had met up with her and some others every week since he was about 6 weeks old!)]

ds2 made up for that though, but he was intolerant to dairy and egg which is why he was so unhappy

thisisyesterday · 12/01/2010 18:57

lol at christmas tree needles in nappy hobbgoblin!
it's amazing the things you find in there isn't it?

newmomma · 13/01/2010 08:31
  1. DibsDabs DD is 8 months old and should be fairly well into solids by now. And therefore drinking water also. I agree completely that breastfeeding is the most important part of a babies nutrition until they're 6 mths - however this isn't applicable to an 8 month old in this situation. I breastfed my son until he was 9 months old but by 8/9 months he was down to 2/3 feeds a day (his choice NOT mine) and so didn't need breastmilk in the night.
  1. I co-slept with my son until he was 6 months old so felt we had a wonderful bond and in no way decided that he was going to be left to 'cry it out'. I think, certainly with DS that he had different cries - a 'grumbling I'm awake but not for long' cry and a 'somethings wrong' cry - all I meant was sometimes barging in to his room when he was grumbling simply woke him up more. And obviously the 'somethings wrong' cries were never ignores.
  1. What you're teaching them with this method is NOT that there is no point in crying as no-one will come; he still cries when he's teething, in the mornings to get up etc... You're teaching them that by putting them in the cot when they're dozy that that is HOW to go to sleep. You need to be quiet, calm and relaxed. Babies don't KNOW how to go to sleep on their own - they need teaching. When I put him in his cot he smiles, hugs his bear and rolls over and is practically asleep before I've left the room. No crying.

DibsDabs my HV suggested that at 8 months babies don't need nutrition in the night (breastmilk) but to offer them a drink if they're thirsty. I really don't know why people read things into what you're saying regarding teaching your LO to sleep - and over exaggerate - it just seems childish.

I personally am of the opinion that apart from breast milk, and parental bonding that sleep is one of the most important parts of a babies development. They need it to help them grow, learn, for brain development. I can only say that my son was generally a miserable child until he got into a good sleep pattern. He DOES need 12 hours at night (not all babies are the same I understand) and he NEEDS two 2 hours naps in the day. And he's happy, bright and sociable.

Best of luck with whatever path you choose - once again I was simply trying to explain how things best worked out for me - not offend anyone - and not to get abuse from people reading things from my posts which don't exist.

skinsl · 13/01/2010 08:46

OP is asking for help, not judgement. If you don't believe in CIO then don't comment. The OP has made the decision to do it for her own reasons and now needs help with it. Whatever anyone's personal feelings it is a recognised method of getting babies to sleep.

It is also very much misunderstood

Dibsdabs this is very contentious issue, don't lose heart.
You need to do this properly, it is a very precise method that has very good results if you stick to it methodically.read the book inside out, the idea is to go into them at regular intervals, so they don't get too
distressed.
TBH I don't know the exact method when still breastfeeding, and evidence says that the success rate is better after they are 1.

Ladies don't make this an argument about CIO, the OP needs advice

OooohWhatAFuss · 13/01/2010 09:10

DibsDabs, I agree with skinsl, don't feel bad that you want your lo to sleep. There are many people who are still night feeding their DCs at 2yo and further and I can see why you would want some advice on how to avoid this happening. Some babies can go for 12 hours at this age so it is worth taking the time now to discover whether your baby is unable to sleep for long periods (don't aim for 12 hours though!) or whether she is used to waking and this habit can be broken. My DS often sleeps for 8 hour stretches and does not seem too unhappy about it. Ignore the criticism and seek out the advice.

newmomma · 13/01/2010 09:18

I agree skinsl and oooohwhatafuss - this thread was from a lady asking for helping getting her daughter to sleep better.

I was offering her some advice from a personal point of view that answered her thread. As far as I understand most HV would give similar advice to anyone asking how to get their child to sleep better. But there is, of course, a clear distinction between sleep training or controlled crying and just leaving a baby to cry until they wear themselves out to go to sleep. Surely most people agree on that point?

I don't see why people have to turn it into a debate about what a basically a personal decision.

shushpenfold · 13/01/2010 09:30

Dibdabs I did cc with my 3 with success for all. I tried all the other techniques and they didn't work - I was desperate! If you don't want to try the 'no cry' solution, then cc works without leaving them to cry for ages (which is what I thought the CIO was?)

CC involves settling them at usual time and teaching them to get to sleep on their own (for the stubborn ones who will not react to the other techniques) After usual routine, leave the room and let them moan/cry for a few mins (3 at first) and then go into the room, pat them, CALMLY say - time for sleep and leave the room. Go in every 5 mins and reassure them that still here but say again, time for sleep, pat or stroke and leave. Don;t stay in the room for more than a minute tops - I tried for up to 2 mins and it didn't work and just annoyed my ds. DO NOT PICK UP AND DO NOT FEED. If you feel you cannot leave them then cc is not for you. As I said - I was desperate and depressed by that point. Lots of books/people say to extend the time of leaving for up to 20 mins or more - I never did as I wasn't comfortable with that. They do go to sleep, but on the first night it may take an hour and a half of every 5 min patting/reassuring. Warning, my ds especially was v miffed and yelled blue murder at me (in fact I think he was swearing at me under his breath!) He was upset, yes so it won't be easy but as I didn't let him get away with murder in the day I didn't see why it should be any different at night. If they wake in the night, you can give a little water if necessary - up to you. I did and one of mine then continued to wake for water for a while after that. We stopped it when it was obvious that it was 'fun! Second might should be much shorter, third night very little, fourth night nowt at all. Good luckxx

biggulp · 13/01/2010 09:40

well crucify me cause i left my FIVE month old ds to cry it out during lunchtime naps as he was waking every half hour through the night and I felt like I was having a breakdown.

it took 2 days. i left him to cry for 70 minutes first lunch time, he went back to sleep for an hour and half. second day 20 minutes. i was crying in the next door room the whole time.

third day he didn't wake. both he and I were happier and better rested from then on.

I still feel guilty about it. but i also know that I was absolutely on the edge with exhaustion and that he learned how to settle himself. i've never had to leave him to cry since then, and always could go to him after that, because i knew there was something wrong rather than just 'i'm knackered, i can't sleep, i want her and i can't speak so I'll cry'.

FlightAttendant · 13/01/2010 09:50

Nobody is being 'crucified'

and there has been no abuse.

People are commenting in what they believe and hope to be a helpful manner by suggesting alternatives together with some facts borne out by research.

I understand nobody is trying to harm their baby

But sometimes there are misconceptions about what a baby needs and what is good for them.

Please do not interpret my comments or those of TIY as abuse or criticism. That's not how they are intended.

Awassailinglookingforanswers · 13/01/2010 10:01

well - I would never do cry it out - just leaving them to cry with no reassurance at all could never ever do that.

I did do CC with DS1 when he was 6 months old - which worked well, and at some point in the not too distant future I'm going to have to sort out DS3's sleep issues (he's 2 1/2) which will probably involve some crying...

But crying it out make even me - a "hardened" CC user shudder.

newmomma · 13/01/2010 10:11

WELL SAID flightattendant!

Its not about judging people - its about offering advice to people who are ASKING for it.

hubbabubbababba · 13/01/2010 11:12

I have just started some sleep training with my dd 7.5 months, its not crying it out, more my own version. On saturday i decided i was fed up of being woken every hour to be sucked on for a minute then have to wrestle to get my nipple out of her mouth without her waking back up so i fed her and when she woke up an hour later i just cuddled her and shuched her, she got a bit mardy wanting to go back on the boob and winged on and off for about 45 minutes then fell asleep on her own after that which she has never done before! So I have been using that method, after feeding take her off and cuddle her and rub her back til she goes to sleep and it seems to be working.... Until last night, she was up loads, I dont know why but I tried cuddling her but then just shoved her back on the boob because I had a headache and was exhausted. I shall carry on like I am though, she seems to be waking less and I always give her a feed if its around 3-4 hours since she fed last.
Oh and we co sleep so she is hopefully reassured.

FlightAttendant · 13/01/2010 11:20

Hubba, I would say just roll with it...if instinctively you feel she doesn't need the boob sometimes, then by all means try and comort in other ways, but at 7.5 months whatever you do it isn't going to be permanent!
They are still changing so muc at that age and I have known so many people try sleep 'training' around that age only to find it all goes right out the window as soon as the child has a new tooth, or is ill, etc etc
and have to start all over again! So my advice would be don't try and enforce some kind of permanent solution, just keep in mind babies don't settle into a genuine routine till they are much older usually.

abitchilly · 13/01/2010 11:27

Dibsdabs - if it's any consolation, I think the fact that you used 'crying it out' in the thread title has influenced people's approach to this.

I find some of the more antagonistic replies a bit odd as your OP clearly describes something completely different from what is traditionally understood by 'crying it out'. (That's where you literally just leave the baby to it - not even going in the room.)

By the way, I would agree with those who say continue as you are until she's a bit older. Not helpful when you're knackered though I know.

ShowOfHands · 13/01/2010 12:43

Actually I think it's probably right and proper that people with an alternate point of view and a seemingly 'anti' stance to sleep training such as cc and cio come and comment on here. Because in the first instance, there are other methods and avenues to explore and if there's one thing that the person requesting support hasn't tried and it's the thing that works without resorting to letting a baby cry, then hurrah that that one person commented. And I am always mindful with these kinds of debates that there is good research to suggest that leaving a baby to cry is harmful so if I can try and talk to somebody about why it might not be appropriate to sleep train a child of this age, then it might prevent that harm from happening. Of course, your child might not be harmed in the slightest but while the research is there, I will continue to comment and offer other povs. It's the same with weaning. There might be a legion of 'I did it this way', 'my baby's feeding a lot', 'I'm weaning early', but when best practice and good evidence suggests that early weaning is inadvisable then I will comment, even if my opinion wasn't the one originally sought.

Additionally, what also happens on threads when you seek only certain advice is that misconceptions become fact. Newmomma, you quite confidently assert that bfing is the main part of nutrition to 6 months and not after that. That's woefully incorrect. Milk is the main part of a baby's diet for a year. Solids are introduced as a complement to milk and become the main diet after 12 months. And between 6 months and 12 months, though your supply is established, drastic changes to feeding, particularly removing night feeds can be detrimental and sometimes fatal to a bfing relationship. When nightfeeds are the ones that protect and bolster supply, cutting them out is damaging. I cannot know exactly what happened in your case but you say it was your son's decision to cut down to 2/3 feeds at 8/9 months. Well I think the decision to deny night feeds from 6 months informs this and it's not about a baby reducing his feeds according to his own needs but adapting to a new routine that's entirely parent-led.

I would never dare to presume to tell a parent to do things a different way or that their choices have to be my choices but I will continue to believe that responding to a child's needs and nightime parenting are an influential factor on a child's development and attachment.

It think the other thing happening here is a dichotomy of opinion. There are those that believe that a child must 'learn' how to sleep, that it is something you 'teach'. There are those that think it's a developmental thing and that a child comes to it on their own, the same as walking or talking and in the middle there are myriad options and methods and gentle encouragements. There seems to be an implication that if you don't 'train' a child to sleep, then they won't. That children that aren't taught and having methods used on them are feeding through the night into toddlerhood (some are and it's fine if that's what works for you), that they can never self settle, that they are unhappy and sleep deprived. It's just not that polarised. I remain firmly in the development camp, did not sleep train at all and have a matching, happy, sociable child that self settles and sleeps well. But like tiy and flight, she has never cried and people comment on this as noteworthy because it's just never entered into my consciousness to think that crying is every necessary or good when I have the means to help.

I think the other point I wish to make is that we're talking abou 6 month and 8 month old babies. I would probably be less opposed if it was a toddler who had alternate methods of communication, clearer needs for guidance and refusals and a comprehension of what is happening, sharing the way things happen to them as opposed to having them done to them and not understanding.

I do often wonder if it's expectations that are difficult. I completely understand that having to go back to work, other stresses and strains, other children means that a full night's sleep becomes this ridiculous and unobtainable holy grail. That we expect babies of 6 months to sleep through the night, not feed or drink in that time and self comfort at every waking. It takes 9 months to grow a baby and they are born utterly vulnerable. Their development in comparison to other mammals is steady. I see a 6 month old as still very much a vulnerable and malleable prospect. Still changing so enormously, going through massive growth spurts and developmental changes, learning to stand and crawl and roll, to self feed. And with a tiny tummy that needs replenishing and a fast developing sense of self that needs nurturing and a fear of how much bigger the world is becoming on a daily basis and a need to be comforted and guided and supported through that. They have a long childhood and a whole lifetime to slot into the weird and wonderful regulations of the adult world, I am happy to follow their changing needs through that babyhood.

My first reaction, always, to how demanding and constant parenting a baby is was how I could make things easier for me while still nurturing my child's needs. So sleeping in the day, asking for help, co-sleeping, simple cooking, sod the housework etc. My needs could be met in other ways and I had the power to understand that and consciously change. A baby doesn't and it's doing things to them that elicit a stress response of crying. As a powerful form of communication and signal of distress, I could never have ignored it.

tinierclanger · 13/01/2010 12:46

Can I just question, is it actually CIO (cry it out), if you are with the baby at all times as I thought the OP said? I thought CIO meant leaving them alone to cry. Which seems very different, to me.

ShowOfHands · 13/01/2010 12:49

It's a good point about rolling with it while they're changing so much.

For example, when they learn to stand and start moving towards walking, they enter a developmental stage where they cannot settle to sleep and stay asleep for a while. This is a known, studied by men in white coats, observable, fact. It manifests in you finding them standing in their cot, not long after falling asleep and this happening through the night. The developing brain is so focussed on standing and walking that the child can't switch off the impulse and goes through sleep regression. They are trapped by this changing, growing, developing body that says 'stand, walk, explore, grow' and they physically are at a loss to stop it. DD used to clamber to her feet in her sleep. The best thing to do is to guide them through it, help them sleep in whatever way works and know that it's a stage and will pass quickly. If you revert to cc and cio, you're leaving a child who has found him/herself physically incapable of dealing with what is happening alone.

They change so quickly at this age.

And, I might be the only one, but I loved the nightime feeds, cuddles and rocking. She's so big now it's impossible and that age is gone forever. And gosh it was short.

ShowOfHands · 13/01/2010 12:50

Crying it out is leaving them alone, shutting the door and not intervening. Very different indeed to any other sleep training methods.

The OP is obviously not doing this.

skinsl · 13/01/2010 12:53

Exactly, CIO usually means letting the baby cry til they are done. I think what the OP is doing is a version of controlled crying. The term "Crying it out" always gets everyone arguing.

ShowOfHands · 13/01/2010 12:59

I am not responding to the 'cio' suggestion but to letting a baby cry in any way and sleep training in general.

I don't think anybody has thought the op is using cio.

And it ain't arguing, it's debate.

tinierclanger · 13/01/2010 13:04

Sorry, I wasn't attempting to be challenging, just to clarify.

Because I did something similar with DS when he was older (about 13-14 months) I think, to get him to drop his 2am feed (which was not an actual feed, just a comfort suck). I wouldn't have done it when he was this young though, or if he had cried for as long as that.