I so don't want to do controlled crying but could it be my only answer?

[pookamoo]

DD is 10.5 months old. I go back to work at the start of December so we are under huge pressure to get this sorted. Forgive me if this is a really long post but I will try to put everything down.

She had colic and for the first 5 months of her life was basically carried around by me or DH. We spent hours and hours pacing with her, or with her in the sling, and she has never been a fantastic sleeper. She very often used to go 24 hours with about 1 hour's sleep.

Things got a little better eventually the colic stopped and we were cosleeping, I was bfing her to sleep. Eventually she started to nap in the day, and now she will often have 2 naps in the daytime, usually about half an hour at about 9.30 or 10am, and then another in the afternoon, about 2 ish, perhaps 45 minutes to an hour.

For a time she would go down to sleep about 7.30, sleep until 11, wake at 1am and 4am and then up for the day at 7. I still bf her to sleep. DH was able to cuddle her down to sleep, as long as I had given her a long bf beforehand.

Now, only I can get her to sleep, she will only fall asleep bfing and sometimes it takes 2 hours. Last night she was up 9 times between midnight and 7am. It took 3 hours to get her to sleep (7 til 10) and even then she woke a couple of times between 10 and midnight. She does not get drowsy. It's like she's on something. She has little bags under her eyes, which are red rimmed in her little pale face, although she is a very happy baby, she is only getting about 7 hours sleep over 24 hours at a time. I get less.

I can't go on like this. Right now DH is holding her while she howls. Today, after her marathon stint last night, she had about an hour's sleep 3.30 til 4. Bedtime 7pm, usual routine, including bf, but she wouldn't go to sleep and we are both crying!

I am so close to trying CC, although it goes against all my instincts. I just know that she needs to learn to settle herself to sleep, or at the very least, to go to sleep with someone other than me. She doesn't get drowsy, she is just so perpetually overtired she just goes into meltdown. I don't think it would even work for her, as she winds up not down.

I have tried NCSS.
I have tried sshhh pat (me shhh patting her as she crawls around the cot wailing did NOT help!)

can anybody help me???????

I would visit a different cranial osteopath, things change over time.

Her room is really dark (blackout blinds and overlooking a field anyway so no light). She'll cry and cry with DH in the room, but go quiet when I walk in. As soon as she realises I am not picking her up, she starts again.

Bedtime is at 6pm, I don't think I could move it any earlier. Her overtired state is so ingrained now, she just needs to reset her batteries!

pookamoo, haven't read everyone's opinions but wanted to give you my experience..

ds2 is 10m, and his sleeping was abysmal - like your dd he could literally be up every hour and it was just about killing me

i have 2 older dc so was really struggling to get through the day. I had done cc with ds1 with good results 5 years ago, didn't have to with dd as she slept through from 5m (oh how lucky was I....?)

Anyway, I decided enough was enough I gave myself a week to try the cc method on ds2. This was starting on thursday night. Well, that night I put him down awake and he cried for about 40 minutes before falling asleep. Better than I expected, and I was going in evey 5/10 minutes to soothe him.

He woke in the night and I waited till he had been crying for 5 minutes, before soothing him and leaving the room. He feel asleep in 30 minutes.

Friday night - down awake again, cried for all of 2 minutes (2!) and crashed out. woke in the night, cried a bit, fell asleep himself.

Last night - same as Fri.

Tonight - down awake. bit of a grumble. no tears. sleeping like the proverbial baby!

I expect him to wake again and I'll just do the method again - the thing is you have to be fully committed to it. There's no point in starting if you don't think you can put up with it, or if you're too wiped out through the night to do it every time she wakes up.

I know how hard it is, but I would give it say, a 5/7 days of deciding to definitely implement it and if it doesn't work for you, or it's too upsetting for both of you, you can think again.

I couldn't believe how quickly this has started to work for me. He's not sleeping through yet but it's a million times better than it was a week ago. for a month before I was seeing every hour on the clock, nearly every night. I was genuinely at breaking point.

Good luck with whatever you decide. I totally know how you feel.

Kitkat, how do you soothe your DS and do you wait for him to stop crying completely before you leave the room?

I think if I knew exactly what I was doing I might be more inclined to try it. The books are all a bit vague.

Pookamoo - I've done controlled crying before with a baby who at first wouldn't be soothed to the point where they stopped crying, at all. My aim in going in was just to reassure the baby that they hadn't been abandoned rather than to stop the crying iyswim.

So, I put the baby down, said goodnight and left the room. Crying starts. Wait 5 minutes and go back in. Stroke cheek, shush, tuck back in (but didn't pick up), say goodnight - baby is still crying - but I left the room anyway. Basically repeated this for two hours til she fell asleep.

I'm a nanny btw.

pookamo - Can you get yourself a book on various sleep techniques? I'll have a look for the book that I got later and post a link if I can find it (if not tonight then tomorrow).

I have just done CC on DS, but a very light version of it. I believe the full method is 5 mins, 10 mins then 15 mins. I do 3 mins, 4 mins, 5 mins, up to 7 mins max. It was what suited my DS. I also picked him up til he settled, then held him for a min or so before putting him down again.

I have to say with DD it didn't work, but then I was a lot less experienced and she was a very different child. I believe it would have worked for her in the end but I could only bear 2 nights of it so didn't really give it a good go.

It is horrible when your in it, but it will get better, I'm sure.

hi pookamo me again. i didn't actually ever go in to settle my DD when i was trying CC - mostly because she cried and cried (and no, i didn't like it) and then just as i was about to fold she'd go quiet for a mo....these gaps got longer and longer. and eventually stopped.
So my question(s) is(are)

• what happens if you leave her? ie what sort of state of crying does she get into (does she cry big sobs/wail/get so upset she's choking or gagging?)
• and do you HAVE to bf her to sleep? if she's had enough food etc for the day - does she need bfing? it seems like bfing her to sleep isn't working anyway - so why are you doing it?

if she is getting out of hand with her crying then argento makes a good point - just don't make a fuss of her and just go in, pat her back etc and then leave.
I can't see why you or DH need to be in the room if she's not in pain and isn't in danger. She sounds like she's happy babbling away there with the odd "i'm lonely" cry...which isn't going to harm her??

hope i make some sense. I feel a huge amount of sympathy for you.

pookamo - you do have to go with what's right for you with some of it - like the intervals, whether you wait until the baby is completely calm or just has stopped full on crying, and whether to pick up and comfort or not.

For example, I did very short intervals, ds would stop crying as soon as I picked him up but would cry as soon as I put him down (still started the next 2 mins or whatever though) and I chose to pick up rather than pat-shush because patting and shushing wound him up and seemed to tease him as it were whereas a quick cuddle soothed him straight away. I used Contented little baby and Toddler Taming to get to a method that worked for me.

Really recommend you and your DH agree a way to do it and give it a proper go for a week - if it gets you all some rest and gives your dd a proper sleeping pattern and stops her being overtired it is a big win all round!

Hello, poor you. Sleep problems are just the worst, it is impossible to explain just how soul-destroying lack of sleep is. You have my sympathy.

I have twins, so getting some sleep was a big priority for me. We use a little white noise machine, which we still have ( a Prince Lionheart bear - apparently it is a 'genuine womb recording' euuughhh!) and it even sends me to sleep. But then we have used it from 3 weeks old so they do have an association.

Around 12 mths my son began to sleep very very badly, waking frequently in the night. This went on for about 5 months, which was hideous. I went to my GP who was very sympathetic. She prescribed a mild sedative for him (and for me) so that he actually slept a few nights and I could do, so I had the strength to do cc, or at least the habit would be broken. I know this sounds really hardcore and very unMumsnet. But, it was under her supervision at all times, I was only presribed enough for 7 nights etc. It did work, for a while, and it certainly gave me back a small amount of sanity.

I also discovered at this time my DS was scared of the dark!!! We were also using full blackout blinds etc, but left the door a small crack open with a light on all night, and this definitely made a big difference to his night-time wakings.

He is still not a great sleeper (compared to his sister, who only wakes if ill), but things have improved.

I also agree with others who have said about the daytime sleeping. If he has a bad daytime sleep, the night is always worse for a few days. I have to ensure he gets proper naps, which is a total pain but much better than hideous nights. I also have to wake him often from naps to get into a routine - again this helps prevent the overtiredness.

Best of luck to you. If you have a friendly GP, I def recommend getting her checked out for medical problems first, and some advice.

There is no need to use controlled crying, and no need to worry about how she will go to sleep at nursery.

Both my girls have been breastfed when they started nursery (aged 6 months), both were nursed off to sleep and co-slept. At nursery the staff simply held them and rocked them to get them off to sleep. After a few months both of mine would happily lie down at sleep time and be patted off to sleep when at nursery, but would only ever be nursed off to sleep by me when at home. The thing is, she'll know that the nursery staff are not you, so she won't expect them to nurse her, she'll just go to sleep when she's tired.

If you are ok with the way things are at night then don't stress about it. Personally I'd take one side off her cot, move it back into your room and fix it to the side of your bed (we used cable ties!) and just co-sleep. You'll all get the most sleep possible without losing out on room in the bed or having to leave her to cry.

As far as going back to work is concerned, have you started taking her into nursery yet? I'd arrange to spend a morning a week at nursery with her to help her get to know the staff. It takes older babies longer to settle and get to know nursery staff, it will be time well spent for both of you if you can help her get to know the staff now.

pookamoo - sorry for responding last night!

what argento said really - he doesn't stop crying but I still reassure him, stroke him, etc for a minute then I leave the room, go back in after 5 minutes, then 10 etc.

He's also in a sleeping bag so he finds it hard (but not impossible) to stand up! If he does stand, I lay him back down and soothe again.

FWIW, last night he slept from 7pm - 12.30pm, had to cc for less than 10 minutes, then he was awake again at 3am - started off grumbling which turned into full crying eventually. Took about 40 minutes till he was settled again.

He goes to sleep on his own now, without his bottle or me holding him, which is a major breakthrough for me. It's working for naptimes too. Hopefully soon he'll sleep through the night....

Hope you're getting on better. Keep us posted.

Pookamoo could you click on the 'Contact Poster' link to the far right of the coloured band my name is on?

i had a non-sleeper too and did pretty much what greenmonkies has suggested - except we used bungee cords and added the cot a bit earlier.

take her swimming. she'll get physically exhausted. ds has always been at his direst if he doesn't have at least an hour of some sort of hard exercise.

Pookamoo, I've only just seen your thread but had similar experience with ds who is now 20 months old, but at 10 months he was regularly waking up in the night, not really to be fed, but was awake crying and very difficult to settle unless brought into our bed.

As a number of people have said, when you reach your limits, it makes it a bit easier to tackle the problem. When we reached our limits, we decided to try cc. I waited until my husband was away for a few days, then thought 'right, this is it!' I threw away the dummy (ds dependent on it but cried every time it fell out), then used the Millpond technique to help him to settle (they have a great book).

Basically it involved starting the bedtime routine at 6.15 with milk (he had a bottle at this point), with a story, then into the bath, lights off, no toys, laying down, in and out in 2 mins. Then out into a towel, straight to dark bedroom, dressed, kiss, into bed then I walked out. The rationale behind the bath is that the warm water triggers sleep hormones when the baby comes out into the cold air, the dark makes them relaxed and the lack of toys means that they're not stimulated. He was laid down by 6.45.

If he cried, i'd leave him for 5 mins, go in say 'night night sleepy time now,' then walk out. Then leave it for 10 mins then 15 - the max I had to leave it was 10 mins before he fell asleep. The process in the night was the same. Babies naturally wake in the night to check that their environment is safe and they can generally just go back to sleep but those that can't need a bit of help to get into the swing of it.

We managed to crack it in 3 nights and he now sleeps 7 -7. I know that cc isn't for everyone and I completely understand that, but it may be worth trying as it really may help. If it doesn't, then there are lots of other techniques you could try. This one worked for us so I thought I'd share it with you. Good luck with whatever you try!

When DD was about your DD's age and we were at the end of our tethers we just decided to stop feeding at night completely and send DH in when she cried. I decided to carry on feeding her to sleep at 7pm so at least she would go to sleep and the night would start off relaxed. After that I just went to bed with earplugs in and left her to poor DH (obviously we did this at the weekend when DH wasn't working).

First night DH ended up sleeping on the floor with her.

Second night he had to go to her a couple of times and cuddle her until she dropped off again.

Third night we all slept until 6.30am in our own beds.

She sometimes woke up in the days following but DH only went to her if she cried for more than 10 mins.

I honestly never believed that DH would be able to settle her, and my DD was really the most boob-addicted sleep-allergic child but it worked because we stuck to it - no more mummy or milk at night but she wasn't left by herself to cry alone.

Could you try something similar?

Why do people react to a childs request for comfort and security with abandonment, instead of giving them the company and reassurance they really need? CC type methods don't teach them to "self-settle" but to give up.

It is utterly beyond me how any mother can leave their baby to cry for any length of time. I truly don't get it.

(and I speak as a mother who has only just, after 6 years and two children, begun to get anything close to a decent nights sleep)

Greenmonkies, controlled crying isn't abandonment. A little baby I agree just has needs - needs that you have to meet. But an older baby (over 6 months) has needs and wants, and actually you don't have to meet all the wants.

Comforting and soothing a crying baby but saying, "no, this is sleep time and I'm not getting you up" is not abandonment.

If you are happy for yourself and your children to get no decent sleep then I wish you all the best. But I also think adults need to sleep to be able to function well, and good sleep is absolutely vital for small children. Being a martyr does neither mother nor child any favours.

pookamoo - I'm sorry but I cannot find the book I was telling you about. But I did find these on Amazon which might help if your looking at books.

Greenmonkies - I know what you mean but I think it depends on how you do it and the child. My DD would scream herself sick when we tried it (after her having us awake for at least 4hrs everynight for 8 mths - I was exhausted, depressed and ill with it, I had to do something!), so we stopped with her and did a very gentle gradual retreat with her. With DS though I did a much gentler thing and he has only been left for a max of 5 mins and picked up and soothed for a long while before being put down again, awake, to sleep. It took 2 nights - 20 odd mins first night, 10 second (I think) and now he is settling to sleep happily and so are we (I'm still feeding him in the night, but that is my choice and he co-sleeps for part of it). I don't think that is wrong at all.

argento. A baby if 6 months+ does not understand the difference. Children live in the now until they are at least 18-24 months, and they do not understand that you are in the next room and will be back in 5 minutes, don't kid yourself or mislead others about this. I used to be a nanny, and then moved to special needs childcare, and during the training for this was made aware of abandonment and detachment issues, and sadly the training involved in NNEB type qualifications is out of date and does not embrace newer, more recent studies in child and developmental psychology. Here are a multitude of reasons why even two minutes is too long to leave a baby/child to cry, cortisol levels being just one of them.

Since learning about this kind of thing I have carried my babies in slings and co-slept with them amongst other things to allow them to develop strong attachment and security. I have done this despite working and leaving them in nursery, and, contrary to your implication, got more sleep when I was co-sleeping and meeting my childrens needs than I did when trying to follow the "conventional" path and make them sleep seperate from us in a Moses basket or cot.

They are now 3 and 6, they both sleep all night in thier own beds, only joining us if they are unwell. I'm not a martyr, but I chose to have my children, and I see it as my responsibility to care for them and not to train them to make them suit me.

And as an ex-childcare professional I can assure you that caring for someone elses baby/child is very different to caring for your own.

I really don't want to get into a big argument about cc and the pros and cons. But greenmonkies I am always curious on these threads when people write about abandonment/detachment issues. To me, it sounds really extreme that 3 nights of allowing a child to 'cry it out' for 10 mins or so could lead to such a severe outcome, all other things being equal. Is this really what the research suggests? I haven't read it, so I dont know, I am not being deliberately provocative, just wondering. I can imagine that repeatedly ignoring a childs needs day in day out can lead to abandonment issues in the child, just wondering at what stage preserving your sanity (as the OP needs to do) becomes a problem for the child?

Penona,

CC is not the only thing that does this kind of damage. Of course it isn't, but this concept of ignoring the communication of a baby/small child is deeply ingrained in our child-rearing habits. CC is the peak of this kind of thing, but how often do you see a baby or toddler start to witter in a (forward facing) buggy and all the "carer" does is jiggle the buggy or put a dummy in the babies mouth. I have seen this done repeatedly, baby whinges, mum puts dummy in and nudges pram, baby is quiet for a minute, then spits dummy out and whinges again, mum puts dummy back in and jiggles pram, 30 seconds later baby grumbles.......and so on.......

The idea that when a baby makes a noise it's ok to ignore it if it suits you (or "teaches" them something) or that responding to that noise will "spoil" the baby is one that only exists in our society (UK/USA) and yet we have high rates of dysfunctional relationships and divorce, depression, eating disorders, lack of empathy and so on. It's not a coincidence.

We need to stop training and distancing our babies, bring them back into our arms and nurture them, meet their needs not try to modify them, learn to read their non-verbal requests and treat them as valid, rather than inconvenient and manipulative.

The point here is that if you can sit and listen to your baby cry for 5 minutes at a time, for an hour or two in total, for 2 or 3 or 4 nights in a row, then you are ignoring your maternal instincts, and doing this can lead to other, smaller scale, but cumulatively damaging, little daily "neglects". We should all be appalled by the idea of CC, and discouraging this kind of parenting, not encouraging it with and embracing it.

Greenmonkies, while I agree in general with what you are saying, I don't think there is anything wrong in the buggy example you give.
In fact, it makes perfect sense to me.

Jiggling the pushchair and giving the dummy back is not ignoring your child. It might be all the child needs at that point. It's only when it persistently keeps on that you know it needs more than that.

Pookamoo

If I were you I would try to keep a diary over a few days- write everything- times your child eats, plays, sleeps/length of time to settle/what worked and how long she slept for etc.

I know it may sound like a hassle but it is a good way of trying to identify your child's natural sleep patterns and you can then use that to try to develop a routine that fits in with your child.

I would agree with those that have said she is probably not sleeping as she is overtired/overstimulated.

For those that go on about abandonment/cruelty etc you have no idea what you are talking about especially if you have spent 6 years with your child attached to you.

Each person's parenting styles are their own and no one would be giving advice here unless it was asked for. Some people are quite happy to spend years of getting no sleep but most are not. Most children will definitely not benefit from being continually sleep deprived and as a result their behaviour/appetite/development and learning may suffer. Not to mention what happens when sleep deprived toddler winds up sleep deprived parent- result is often loss of control by parent through screaming/shouting/smacking.

Much better IME to be a bit firmer about sleeping and possibly have some instances where you leave your child to cry for a short period, popping in to reassure etc.

We have always gone in to our children when they cried- fed them if needed, changed nappies, cuddled them, soothed them etc Usually at this stage the child is rubbing their eyes furiously etc so we have put them back in their cot and said, 'night, night it's time to sleep' or something similar. If the child continues to cry after 5-10 mins- go back in and have a quick cuddle the repeat etc. We have rarely needed to go in more than twice.

The other thing I'd like to point out is what is the difference between using a dummy to stifle your child's voice (as GreenMonkies has said) or picking up/cuddling your child- you are doing it for the same reason- to stop them from crying. Crying is just another way of a child expressing theirself- quite often they are saying, 'I'm tired and need to go to sleep'.

Sensible post, thatsnotmymonster.