AP has broken me - considering CC

[dorisbonkers]

I'll keep this brief. I never set out to follow a specific parenting method, and have never read any books, but have fallen into the attachment camp - co-sleeping, frequent breastfeeding, BLW, slinging. I don't even have a pram 10 months in.

My daughter from birth has only had one night of 7-hour sleep (and I think that was the jaundice...). We were happy to co-sleep, breastfeed to sleep if it were 2-5 night wakings. Well, for the past month it has been 6-8 night wakings. She's teething now and I've been feeding to sleep every 20 minutes sometimes. I spend my nights in bed seething, buzzed, unable to sleep when she's finally asleep. I'm bruised from her pinching, scratched. I've not had a shower in two days and I

My husband works nights so has to sleep in the day -- necessitating long trips out with her in the sling. So I'm alone most evenings dealing with what feels like feeding a crocodile on crack in bed.

I have had 2 hours sleep in 48 hours, with one night before that when I got a few hours. A few nights last week I never slept. I've been rowing with DH, I nearly crashed our car and I have no energy, I want to shout at my gorgeous daughter and sometimes just sit listlessly looking at her. I'm not the mother I was a few weeks ago. I've been hospitalised for depression in my twenties and can recognise the dullness, anger, listlessness. I'm not there, but can feel it coming. I have totally lost my confidence. I feel my previous confidence has been drowned out and I constantly question my decisions and sometimes feel I'm putting my principles above my daughter's wellbeing. She needs a decent night's kip too.

I was adamant that I'd never do any sleep training and I'll admit that I swallowed the arguments for AP wholesale. With my non-sleep deprived hat on, I can recognise the benefits, but think they are sometimes overplayed -- like with the routine end of the spectrum too. But it feels gentle and kind and generally suits me.

Having no sleep at all does not suit me. I have for weeks endlessly run over CC in my mind but can't quite make the leap. I almost feel ready to.

Although my husband is very supportive, he's not here. I moved back to the UK recently and my mother's not that keen on visiting. So I feel little support, no backup, any outside help. I think that's key to AP being easy when it gets tough.

Can anyone reassure me, or talk me through CC? I may not do anything but I need to hear some sensible voices.

Or is it purely developmental? In which case I should try my best to weather the storm?

oooh I feel your pain op,I have been there.I didn't try cc,but found that gradually the girl's sleep did improve.They are both still in our bed, the older is 4 and very rarely wakes at all,and hasn't since around two and a bit,and the younger is two and a quarter,and wakes at most twice,sometimes not at all.I found that teething was having a huge impact as both of them started sleeping much better when all their teeth were through.(I second cranial osteopathy as it helped my older daughter,) teething tissue salts helped(homoepathic,from chemists or health food places)and calpol when nec.
I had no outside support either but was able to have much more help including a lie in and breakfast in bed,from my dh,so I think getting some extra help if at all poss might make all the difference.Could you afford a babysitter for the odd couple of hours in the daytime just for you to lie down and try to sleep while they take the baby for a walk? It will get better,really it will.lack of sleep on this scale is hideous and sends one a bit mental.I have never shouted as much at my dh as I did when my dd was waking 7 times a night.I felt deranged,I WAS deranged.You will feel totally different when you start getting more sleep.You will look back and laugh a hollow laugh at your knackered and grimey old self.Sending you a hug and wishing you a speedy trip to the other side of sleepless.

Doris, you poor, poor thing. My OH works v long hours and my mum is abroad so you have my sympathies. It's so hard when you've got no-one to confer with.

We co-slept until recently- we started settling DS in his cot for the first sleep of the night months ago then he'd join us after first feed. He's now 14mo and the wake-ups have got much less frequent and he'll now settle back in his cot most of the time. Sometimes only wakes once and occasionally not at all. I miss him next to me in bed sometimes but I love the extra sleep, especially now he's a wriggly toddler!

Getting DH involved in nighttime settling, despite his working 70-odd hours a week, has helped loads. Yes, he is knackered but I was at breaking point so he had to step in and help! He's still BF but DH gives him bottles of cows milk if he's hungry, otherwise rocks/ hums etc until he settles. It took a while (a shouty while) for DS to accept comfort from DH instead of me but...the cheeky thing now settles in minutes for his Dad but if he knows there's a boob available, he'll feed for up to an hour!

If DS is teething however, he will wake up loads. We give baby paracetamol, ibuprofen and chamomilla which seem to help but he will wake up once the painkillers wear off and want to feed for hours. So, in that respect, it probably is a phase but do try to treat the teething and see if that helps.

Try not to be hard on yourself, there is nothing wrong with the choices you've made. I've worried plenty that it's my fault my son doesn't sleep and that I should be teaching better sleep habits and that he's sleep deprived and I'm impeding his development and all sorts of stuff! Not true of course, and I quite like the fact that DS expects one of us to be there when he calls.

I would also say that you need to get some rest as a matter of urgency. Your DH might have to be a bit more tired for a couple of weeks but you need help. Can DH take over bedtimes/ nighttime settling on his days off? Can he take DD out for a walk whilst you nap?

If you want to carry on co-cleeping but cut out the constant feeding, dr jay gordon's advice on night weaning is fabulous.

If she bf's less during the night she will just up what she needs (both bf and solids) during the day. That's what happened with my dd anyway.

With dd, we got her into her own cot, own room with me on a mattress on the floor.

She was still waking very frequently at this stage.

I then started to use the pull off the breast method from 'No Cry Sleep Solution' to get her into the cot awake and then patted her tummy, stroked head etc until she went to sleep (she might cry but you are there so it's just frustration). She did then start to wake a bit less often.

I was at the end of my tether as well, so we contacted a sleep consultant Andrea Grace (you can google her) which cost £200 for a phone consultation, written plan and phone support.

On her advice, my goal became for dd to stay in the cot all night and I stopped feeding her or picking her up at night. This bit was hard because I had to go to her and just pat/stroke her/bounce the mattress until she went back to sleep which could take an hour or more.

An important part also was establishing a bed time routine which was exactly the same every night - bath, same song, same book, saying good night to things in room, whatever, but as long as it is the same and in the same order.

After a week or so of doing this we did a rapid version of cc (out for 1 minute, then 2, then 3 and never more than 3 and just going in briefly and reassuring her - saying 'you're OK'.) The first night it only took about 15 minutes of this and she went to sleep, only woke up once I think but was sleeping through after a couple of nights. It really was miraculous as far as we were concerned and she was quite soon going off to sleep with no bother at all.

I'm fully aware of all the arguments against cc and would previously have told you that I would never consider it, but as you can see, we worked up to it over time and didn't go from one extreme (co-sleeping, feeding to sleep) to the other (in cot awake). I became much more able to cope and enjoy dd (also had diagnosis of PND) so it was the right thing for us.

Whatever you decide to do I wish you good luck and remember you aren't alone, it's not your fault and many of us have been there.

Doris you have my greatest admiration for getting this far and still being able to say you've only thought about shouting at your daughter, I doubt I'm the only one who has yelled more than once

We were in a very similar situation, I'll explain what worked for us as it might possibly be some help for you. DD was in a sidecar crib and feeding every few hours up to about 6 months. I would just latch her on in the bed next to me and go back to sleep. We found out by sheer coincidence that if we weren't in the room with her, she was much less disturbed - went out for dinner for the first time and left her with my dad and lots of bottles of EBM! She only woke up that first night when we went in to bed after midnight. So the next night we left her in the sidecar cot and moved ourselves to the spare room . When she woke for a feed I would go in and stay there with her. The number of night wakings immediately dropped down, instead of going to bed at 7.30 and waking at 10.30, feeding for a couple of minutes and nodding off, she'd first wake up at about 2 or 3. Still a couple of wakings between then and the morning.

Then she started rolling out of the bed, so it was time to put her in the 'real' cot. Again it was a slow process, put her to sleep there and on the first waking I'd feed her back to sleep in my arms, and put her down in the cot. This was usually a very slow process (leaning over cuddling her for a good 5 minutes to make sure she was definitely asleep). The number of night wakings went down again to just a couple a night while she was on her own. She's in a gro-bag, and there's a rolled up blanket next to her to cuddle up to instead of me.

Then about a month ago for some reason she decided to sleep for most of the night (don't say it too loudly!). We've been following the NCSS for the times she does wake - gentle removal from the boob, the same music as bedtime, etc etc. The going to sleep routine can take a long time as she's standing up a lot and finds it very hard to switch off enough to lie down, but it's gradually getting easier. She's nearly 9 months.

So I guess she kind of made the decision herself when she slept much better in a different room. We were doing a kind of AP, but when it comes down to it, it really is AMothering - if the dad can't help with night wakings because you're bfing. And at a certain point it just gets too much to feel you're doing everything yourself. We realised that co-sleeping was all very lovely, but none of us was getting any sleep, and better a happy well rested baby and mum to be quite honest.

I remember you from a previous thread on this subject and really hope things start to get better for you. You definitely need some support from your DH, yes he's working but you're also working 24 hours a day at the moment being a mother, you really need some rest.

Thanks everyone. I'd have liked to come back here saying things have eased a bit. Actually she is sleeping a little better -- phases during the night where she's half awake near constantly nibbling, but she's had better stretches.

But relationship with DH worsening. He had a heavy Saturday night and didn't get much sleep for Sunday night, when he starts his stretch of punishing night shifts. But I left him to sleep much of Sunday. He got back this morning and had a couple of hours, but had promised to get up and take DD off my hands. I didn't wake him but reminded him when he got up for water that he said he'd get up for her but then was a cue for 'oh, fucking sorry for having 1 hour 45 mins sleep'. 'You have to stay home and look after her, I have to go out and earn the money' 'I am so fucking apoplectic right now' 'you don't deserve listening to right now'.

He says he can't talk to me because I've got 'mad eyes' says I'm being unreasonable and a bitch (he's honestly not a git normally and we don't usually row.'

I want him to go on his night shift and stay with a friend tomorrow so I can clear my head.

I feel really alone, really down about this and hate that my best friend my husband isn't my best friend anymore.

Deep down I think he really resents working and me not working. This is something I sense and has made me come around from planning not to work, to planning to go back part time. He says on the surface he supports whatever I do. But surely no, if he believes his sleep is more important, because he works, and mine is less important because I stay at home....doing my nails, having spa days, going to the gym ffs.

But there's no talking to him. In fact he doesn't want to look at my face, let alone listen to 'my shit'.

Sorry, don't usually air my dirties on line but am so upset it helps to get it out.

Jesus, as if it couldn't get worse. I see Natasha Kaplinksy on the telly just now. We were at the same college and we work in the same field (news). We had our babies within weeks of each other.

She looks normal (well, looks like an air stewardess). I look like someone you'd cross the road to avoid.

Huge sympathies. You are a saint to go on for this long.

I think the question you need to ask yourself at this point is whether or not you are helping your daughter by continuing like this. She needs proper sleep, which she clearly isn't getting. You need a minimum of sleep to function as a parent, which you clearly are not getting.

CC is not your only option, by the way. You don't have to leave your baby to cry on her own for any stretch of time. Be there with her but just refuse her the night feed. It will be tough for 2-3 nights (although can't be tougher than what you are describing in OP!) but then she will get used to not feeding in the night and will sleep through.

Thanks. In fact I don't think the main problem here is my daughter's sleep. Obviously, it probably is preferable that she doesn't wake so frequently but really she doesn't fully wake before I get a nipple in her mouth and she settles quickly. She is effectively sleeping (though broken) from 8ish to 8ish.

It's insomniac old me who just lies there waiting for her to wake up or move, feeling I can't relax, hearing traffic, people, cats jumping into her cot (another big problem I have, I can't lock them out the bedroom)

I'm just so wound up, upset, wired and knackered that I couldn't just nap.

Argh. I suppose. My husband is back this morning after his last nightshift this week and I'm not sure what to do. We're still not talking.

Carry on as we are?
Tell him to do the night settling and keep putting her in her cot?
Tell him to do the settling from midnight to 5am?
Kick him out
Tell him to sleep on the sofa.

Do you think that if your daughter was sleeping then the insomnia would still be there?

I think the problem is sometimes not the broken sleep, but the fact that some women can't get back to sleep afterwards.

FWIW: For the first year DH pretty much slept in the spare room. I just WROTE OFF the first year. I had a (breastfeeding) friend who kept a diary with me over the course of a week to see who woke the most - we were both the same, waking around 16-17 times a night. I felt like no one believed me.

I went to bed at 7pm and just stayed there until morning, grabbing what sleep I could.

However, if you aren't getting back to sleep because of insomnia (was this always a problem?) then this does make the whole thing horrendous.

If you want to continue the way you are, then there are perhaps thing you can do: - let your husband sleep in a different room (I think there is actually LESS stress when you aren't fretting about whose turn it is), remove the clock (watching it will drive you insane) and get to bed at 7pm with the baby - and nap during the day when the baby naps (if he does).

If you've tried that for a few weeks and you still want to try something else, then perhaps you could think about it then?

I may try that morningpaper, except we've moved back to our tiny flat from abroad and only have one bed, although he could make the sofa his bed, it's big enough.

I've always had a problem with insomnia, but I can't decide whether this level of insomnia is a cause or a symptom of feeling depressed (I would stress that I do not feel PND feelings, but do feel low. I have no problem with feelings toward my daughter aside from momentary frustration sometimes).

Ach, he's just sleep deprived too but cannot or will not see my point of view. I feel that I have a hefty job to do 7 days a week. It's roughly a 12-14 hour day job (ie when she's awake), but I'm on call 24 hours and frequently have to do my job in those hours too. If I've had 1.45 hours sleep -- there's no one to complain to or delegate to. I can't run crying to mummy or shout at my daughter that I've only had that 1.45 hours sleep.

Whereas he has three 13 hour shifts a week and the rest of the time he can more or less sleep when he wants.

He thinks I'm being unfair.

The first year is really REALLY tough on relationships. Someone once described having a baby as throwing a hand grenade into a marriage.

He is working full-time and that is tough when you are sleep-deprived. How does he parent outside of his working hours (when he isn't asleep?)? Does he take over from you when he is not at work? Does he give you some time and space for yourself?

I think there has been some great advise on this thread already and hopefully you can weigh up the options and decide which suits your situation best.

It doesn't sound like DS fully appreciates how tough things are for you (unlike so many posters on here who have been there )- but then its hard to fully understand when he is not in your shoes.

You are terribly sleep deprived and beginning to feel that it is impacting on your relationship with DD and DH. DH's sleep is also affected (although not as badly as yours) and so he is becoming short tempered and grumpy- all totally understandable.

I wonder if part of the insomnia is due to the fact that the co sleeping is making you feel negative towards DD- waiting for her next move etc.... Maybe if she was not next to you in the bed you would feel more positive and sleep would come more easily.

Please do not underestimate the negative effects of chronic lack of sleep on your relationship with DD and DH. I know implementing any sleep solution is tough especially when you have been co-sleeping but IMO you will reap the rewards in so many ways.

I did a similar thing to another poster- stayed in the room with DS rubbed his back etc, it was tough but it worked and I am so glad that now he is a toddler I have the energy to have great days with him. He is a (mostly!!) wonderful little boy, well adjusted, very loving, kind and fun- I am positive it did him no harm and that the alternative of having a zombie mummy would have done him no favours what-so-ever.

Good luck, I hope things improve soon.

no advice on the co-sleeping vs controlled crying, but sending massive amounts of sympathy. My DS was side car cotted until recently and was feeding up to six times a night and it is so draining, and that was without me suffering from insomnia. In only two short weeks I can feel my PND lifting and the world is suddenly seeming like a much better place to be again

FWIW, he is 10 months and has just started to sleep through (mostly) in the last two weeks. It took me moving him to his own room and stuffing as much boob and food into him during the day as I could manage for this to happen though.

Re your DH, again no real advice there, but suffice to say that things always seem much worse when you have had zero sleep (My DH also commented on my mad stary eyes a few times when I was tired and getting picky about little things that wouldn't normally bother me). Your DH's schedule seems to allow him to take some of the pressure off you and imo he should be being supportive of you in those times, taking the baby out in the day so you can at least catch up on sleep then. Can you give him an ultimatum to that effect? Appeal to his better nature?

Doris, how are you doing? I've been thinking about you since reading your post.

Couldn't add anything to the other great advice at the time as we went down very different paths re parenting!

I hope you are feeling a little better, at least?

Keep us informed. x

Hey there cfc. Thanks for your concern, and I hope things are well with you.

Well, she's sleeping better. When I say better, not the 7-9am some parents have or expect, but sleeping from 8pm then waking at midnight-ish to feed, then sleeping until the early hours and generally. That said, there are some periods when she's not having a quick feed and drifting off quickly, but feeding and nibbling for an hour. Still, it's doable. So we're still co-sleeping and not desperate to cut night feeds.

Now that's fantastic, and shows that when I first wrote, the constant waking was down to bad teething and a cold, which we both had.

Now I've come to realise that my problem is really insomnia, and I think I have to admit to myself that I've developed some sort of anxiety problem. I'm not post-natally depressed but have some anxious thoughts probably exacerbated by sleeplessness which mean I can't relax sometimes. Last night she had slept for four hours and I was just wide awake, every sight from DH and every noise from the cats and traffic driving me crazy.

I've always had insomniac tendencies and have been hospitalised for depression in my twenties (given lithium for bi-polar disorder although I think that wasn't a good diagnosis). So I'm no stranger to depressive feelings. But this is different. This is a feeling, a wave of mild panic, if you can conceive of panic being 'mild'.

Oh and DH are talking again and we had a lovely day out shopping. I feel much better. If I can get enough sleep I reckon I'm ok, if not, I think a trip to the docs is in order.

Thanks again everyone

Am pleased to hear things are looking better for you. You sounded so desperate in your OP and it made me sad to think of another mum in that state.

You sound very switched on to your emotions, your depressive tendencies and your needs so hopefully you'll spot when you need help - if it gets that far.

They can do things for insomnia thesedays so do ask for help. It so often seems to go hand in hand with depression I find (from talking to others).

Good luck and here's to more sleep from the wee one!

ps - bear in mind a lot of people lie or exaggerate when explaining what their baby sleeps....

I could almost have written many your posts. I also have had an episode of depression. I had a very tiny baby who was also a month early. I followed AP, and was/am feeding every half hour and just not going back to sleep. It was/is putting immense strain on my DH and I. Until very recently, my DD also went ballistic on being put down in her cot.

Last week we reached breaking point and decided to begin doing controlled crying in the evenings and for a lunchtime nap. We planned out a very detailed and strict routine, and I took her out in a buggy for the morning and evening naps (though I also prefer slings) to avoid either her being overtired or doing CC four times a day. To my she fell asleep within five minutes each time. And within a couple of days she was happy to go down in her cot and settle herself to sleep without any crying. We suddenly have evenings to ourselves again and I have a magical, marvellous break in the middle of the day. Because she loves the cot now, I can put her down for the other naps too, if she happens to be home.

She still wakes 5-6 times a night for breastfeeds. Every night so far, I have given up in exhaustion in the early hours and brought her back to our bed. Tonight my DH and I are both staying in the spare room, as we plan to try CC overnight for the first time. We are moving as being in the same room with our crying DD, but not picking her up, enrages her and prevents her settling. I am going to give her either a feed, if she demands it, or a dreamfeed between now and 11pm and then use CC the next time she wakes up.

We don't think our DD is waking from hunger as she feeds very well by day. All the no cry solutions have been tried but they just served to frustrate and upset her horribly, making her very distressed. I wish I had tried CC sooner, as just dealing with the lunchtime and evening sleeps has improved things massively for our family, and she is a happier baby. I always thought she was anxious and highly strung, but now I realise she has been overtired.

I think when you are as sleep deprived as we are it is hard to make a positive decision and change tack. For your own sanity, you need to sort out your DD's sleep. And then your own insomnia. Some of the same rules apply to you both - always get up at the same time no matter what, no activity in the bedroom that is not sleep routine related (except the obvious), structured sleep routine involving a bath and a relaxing warm drink before bed.

I think you should also see your GP or PHN to get their professional advice and also to talk things through someone in person. And consider getting your DH to read this thread. Best of luck.

How about getting your DH earplugs so you don't have to go out with baby in the sling during the day. Then baby could get used to not being so close and attached to you all day, and then maybe she would accept a little distance at night too. I did AC parenting and found it a mixed blessing, or a double edged sword, or maybe a stick to beat myself with , but when I looked at the alternatives, I couldn't stomach any of them. I found the William and Martha Sears book 'The High Needs Baby' (or something like that) a life-saver. It's hard to see the light at the end of this long tunnel, but there really is one.

Sounds like it is still hard work but you've done so well to get this far with it.

DS was like that at 6 months and I was so exhausted we moved him to his own room and did CC and CIO for a few nights to get him sleeping 4hr stretches

At about 11mo we tried to get him going longer but this time he reacted badly to the CC with very clingy behaviour so we stopped it straight away and dh just held him and walked etc to settle

as he's got older and moved into a toddler bed things have got easier and we're able to settle him in the bedbwhen we need to, without milk or cuddles. When he has been upset, dh has done the cuddling although he's still been having one or two feeds until last week. He just gets up ad climb in with me!

Anyway last week i'd has enough and said no more milk, covered my boobs up and said no more till koenig and just cuddled him. 4 nights later he stopped really asking and just climbs in, snuggles up and goes back to sleep within a few minutes.

Anyway, my point was that although DS is much older at 19mo now I wish I had tried this a bit earlier. I'm not sure if it would have worked so well bit I wish I had tried before leaving him alone. I'd your DH can't/won't help it might work for you.

I agree you need to address your insomnia too because anyone is going to go a bit nuts with that little sleep!

Okay, I am reporting back after our first attempt at controlled crying through the night. I should have mentioned in my last post that we did not think it would be reasonable to expect DD to go from feeding every half hour or so, to sleeping through the night. My objective for this week is to cut her down to three feeds a night. At 8 months, and loving BLW, I think that should be enough! In theory the feeds will be at 10.30, 2.00 and 6.00 every night

8.00 Bed, sleep immediately
10.30 - 10.45 Woke up, breastfed back to sleep
12.50 - 1.12 Controlled crying, it was horrendous, I really hope it is worth it in the longer term
1.20 Grumbled for 5 min
2.00 I gave a dreamfeed, my breasts were engorged beforehand, so I know she took lots without waking up
3.30 Grumbled for 2 min
5.35 - 6.00 Grumbled
6.00 Breastfed to sleep
7.15 DH woke DD by opening the curtains and getting dressed in our bedroom

So it was a long night, especially as I was stressed out and strung out and never slept much, even while DD did. It was the first time I've tried to sleep apart from her since we got home from the hospital. Like you, I have no support apart from my DH who is the sole earner. I don't expect him to get up during the night but from now on, we have agreed that if I can sleep in the mornings, he will at least give DD her breakfast and get her dressed for the day.

I think that different approaches will work for different babies. I wish I could tell you that I would never do controlled crying and that one of the other techniques had worked for us, but they didn't. I did not want to have a rigid routine, but I can now see the advantage of it - you have a structure that you can work every day on improving or adjusting.

Just to add - an unexpected reward of sleeping separately last night. My DD has been permanently attached to me since birth and always seems to have reserved her best smiles for her Dad, or anyone who is not me. This morning she could not stop beaming and gurgling happily at me, I have never felt so adored. She went down for her morning nap without complaint.

Agree with jumpjockey that AP is really AMothering. I think with more support, e.g. if we had family close by I could have persisted with it. But as things were, I was heading for collapse.

I've noticed that books like "three in a bed" seem to assume the baby naps easily. My DD never did until we used CC.

Avril - In your place, I wouldn't have given the dreamfeed at 2 AM at all.

You might even cut out night feeds altogether. If you are doing CC, you might as well do it to teach your baby to sleep through the night, no? At 8 months and already on solids, she is more than capable of going through the night without a feed.

Thanks Cote. I wanted to do dreamfeeds because I don't think I could have coped with CC for the whole night, knowing she had not been fed during it. As she is used to co-sleeping and feeding every half hour or so, she probably is genuinely getting hungry. Though the real problem is inappropriate sleep associations.

I had planned to get her sleeping for longer stretches and then use the "core night" technique. Do you think that CC would be kinder or more effective?

@morningpaper..hand grenade? more like a prolonged campaign of terror. (birth >boom< teething >kerbang< potty training >shattering explosion