I *have* to sleep train my 4 month old? Those who didn't, come talk to me

[HullabaLuLu]

DD is just over 4 months and we have gone from 2 night wakings to hard to settle and waking/crying lots etc.

I have decided to accept that this is how she is for now but I am truely exhausted. We co-sleep for part of the night which helps...a bit.

Anyway, I saw a friend today who is just horrified that DD wakes so much and even more so that we co-sleep.

She said to me today "you know you're going to have to teach her to sleep don't you?"

She then told me she left her son to cio at 7 months and it only took two nights before he "learnt to sleep through".

I told her I won't leave dd to cry, I don't agree with it and think it teaches her nothing about sleep. She accused me of being too soft and offered to do it for us while DH and I went out. The thought of my daughter crying herself to sleep, ignored by my friend while dh and I have a night out makes me feel sick.

My friend reckons that dd won't learn to sleep through without this and I'm setting myself up for years of co-sleeping and broken nights.

DD is my first so I have no idea how it will happen but cio/cc just aren't for us.

So, anyone who didn't do any kind of sleep training (I hate that expression) can you tell me how you went from being up several times in the night to dc in their own bed, sleeping through the night?

Starlight, you are wonderful! i did the same sort of thing with mine and it worked here too.

Any plan which ensures the most sleep for the largest number of people is OK by me!

Good to see positive replies, which I will read properly later as we're working on improving DS's sleep without crying (NCSS at the ready).
But just wanted to say meanwhile that IMO your 'friend' should pull her neck in.

I had a real wobble with my baby boy at 4m..but just accepted that it was a 4m month develpomental leap and a bit of a sleep regression. I EBF and baby usually wakes 1-3 times a night, and at 5 months I am pretty happy with that. My only tip is to try and get baby to settle themselves back to sleep.I think CC is a bit horrid, and I have a mate who swears by it but her next door neighbour sayshe hears her baby cry ALOT through the night and no one goes in. I think that is so shit.
I have another friend who LOVES to dish out unwanted pearls of parenting wisdom. Does my head in.

I was pg with dd when ds was 18 mths

I absolutely agree btw that lying is a very good idea in this regard - when you're asked how they're sleeping, just say, yes, much better thanks and change the subject

I think sometimes when people are very blinkered to the point of almost seeming agressive about something like this, it's that they have convinced themselves that it's absolutely necessary (to do CC or whatever) and their insistence at you to do it is because the last thing they want in the world is for you to turn around and say "Actually, we solved this without crying" - because that makes them feel they have failed. I just find it best to avoid the subject with them because it avoids upset all round

As for sleep training - no, I don't believe you ever have to do it, but your only other options are wait for it to get better (and change your own sleeping patterns/habits to fit in with it if possible) or employ very slow gentle techniques like in NCSS, and so if neither of those two options are possible for someone, they would have to use sleep training.

I know I couldn't do sleep training - I had to let my DS cry the other day when he was in the car seat on the way back from Tesco, it was possibly a 5 minute journey, maximum, and he cried hysterically so much he ended up hoarse Which was when I realised I had never, ever let him cry for that long before, and that's not really a very long time! (Which is not to say he's never cried for longer than 5 minutes - he has - but it's always been in my arms with me trying everything and anything to make it better )

Sorry to butt in but this thread has made me feel relieved in an "am I normal" way about my 7mo who wakes twice a night. I am tired but not knackered but am finding the early mornings a bugger as it gets light too early! I put him in the bed with us after his 2nd feed at about 4-5am and he normally nods off okay. I console myself with the thought that in a few years he will be an independent little person and in 15 he won't want to be seen with us, so am enjoying it while he's little and cuddly. I am also tonight trying evil (and more effective) disposable nappies in the night to see if this makes him stay asleep for longer as I have a sneaking suspicion that the lots of feeds/lots of wee thing might be a particularly vicious circle.

I can't bear the thought of CC as I am a big softie and the bairn runs rings around me.

Oh thanks guys, I feel much better.

Hey Feralgirl, I was hoping to lure you back!

I am fairly sure DD's nighttime antics are a developmental thing. She keeps waking and blowing raspberries before going back to sleep and she is obsessed with grabbing things at the moment.

starlight & seeker, that sounds like a more sensible approach. We don't really have a consistent approach. Sometimes she comes in with us other times I just keep getting up.

Last night she came in with us after her second waking....11pm which is the earliest I've had her in bed with us and I have to say I feel better today than I have in ages even though she woke crying every hour (wondering if it's teething too?).

I am really glad so many of you have posted to say you didn't sleep train. I know it might be the longer route to an uninterrupted nights sleep but I am more comfortable with that.

Hullabalu my sister did sleep training from 4 months onwards. It worked for ooh all of about a week each time. My nephew is now 19 mnths and has only just started sleeping through, now he's cut his canines. However, of course she puts it down to sleep training - despite the fact that she's been sleep training for over a year !!!

I totally agree with you, I could never leave my LO to cio. I never did anything other than gentle withdrawal to encourage him to go to sleep in his cot, then co slept when neccessary. He started sleeping through at - oh - 18 months !! 12 hours straight ! So although my sis and I had the same lack of sleep, at least my LO didn't go through all that heartache and stress. For me it was the only way forward.

My nephew is also vv clingy too, which often makes me think that being forced to be stressed at bedtime is Not a Good Thing & I've observed this in a few CIO kids - just my opinion though !

Go with your gut and know that once teething starts - the whole cio thing probably will not make the blindest bit of difference !

I would ignore your friend and trust your instincts. Its your DD not hers.

i have co-slept with both of my boys until they were at least 6months old and then they came into us during the night if they were unsettled. DS2 is now 9months old and sleeps on his own until about 3am (bed at 7pm, feed at 10pm and sometimes 1am). I agree with the other posters that a child will sleep through when they are ready. DS1 slept through 7-7 when he started walking at 13months. He now loves bedtime and there's never any problems apart from when he's ill.

I personally cant bear CC and don't think the child learns anything apart from being upset that "mummy doesn't care that i'm crying".

Hi Hullabalulu - my DD is 5.5 months, EBF and wakes for a feed once or twice in the night - she is absolutely not consistent. We had a wobble about 3 weeks ago when she was ravenous and waking for 3 feeds a night.

I also have a friend who is aghast that I would even contemplate not letting her cry herself to sleep... Apparently she (my DD!) doesn't 'need' feeding twice in the night (between 6.30 and 7). I have to not discuss DD's sleep with this friend because she is SO set in her ways (with all the experience of 1!). Like lots of the posters here - I expected night wakings... I've got a baby! And I see no need to let her cry. As long as I'm happy doing it, I don't see the point of trying to 'force' her into a pattern she's not ready for. Babies wake up at night - it's what they do!

FWIW of my antenatal class - 7 babies - only one is sleeping through (i.e. bed at 7, woken for a feed at 10.30) and then up at 7. All of the others are like my girl - or up much more frequently.

Also FWIW - I have been astounded how differently I feel about some friends now I have a baby and I realise that they have done CC (the friend mentioned above did it at 3 DAYS old!). I suppose I am as set in my ways about not letting her cry. I'm her mum. It's my job to be there for her... Anyway - just rambling really - but I do think babies waking up is normal and it will come in time.

Hi Hulla, I remember feeling exactly like you at 4 months, I worried a lot that i was 'doing it all wrong' and 'making a rod for my own back' and 'letting him wrap me round his little finger'. now i've decided that i have to do what makes ds and i (and dh, but only to a small extent!) happy. for the time being, that's co sleeping for most of the night.

i am quite surprised that your friend is so free with her suggestions - most people i know have visibly bitten their tongues when i've moaned about sleepless nights and ebf to six months. bless them!

also, although he's still not sleeping through the night, things have drastically improved now that he's eating three solid meals a day. if only it didn't get light at 4.30 am! aaaaargh! all in all, there is a light at the end of the tunnel, there really is.

All these replies and nobody has stated the obvious? 4 month growth spurt.

Reading this with a 4mo on my lap [wry ]
I am that everyone on here thinks 'sleep training' = cio.... I sleep trained my dd... but never let her cio- I think teaching/using cues, etc are training so have called it that- I am very to think some people may have thought I left her to cio.
She got it at around 8mo- sleeping 13 hours a night, with wobbles at illness/teething times of course. At 3, she still sleeps 13 hours a night, rarely waking- if she wakes, she goes back to sleep within 5 minutes of me going to her.

DS has always been a better sleeper... until the week.... I've been so spoiled this time round!
(am a grouchy mama this week though! )

Mattress on the floor has been the key here too. My daughter never had a cot (now 18 months). I child-proofed her room and put a gate in the doorway and a king-sized mattress on the floor. We still co-sleep for most of the night but she hardly wakes at all. With my son (now 4) I also did the mattress and gradually withdrew. His room was always his room. He sleeps very well.

And what Starlight said. Even IF CIO was a magic answer (which is often isn't) there are some things more important than independent sleep in my view - especially at this age. 4 months! goodness!

what is CIO? Sounds mean, but I can't for the life of me work out what it stands for?

CIO = cry it out, crying it out e.g. leave them to cry alone until they fall asleep eventually.
Considered harsher than CC (controlled crying) where you return after increasingly long intervals.

anyone see gmtv this am? little feature on children and sleep trailing a programme on later tonight. ben shepherd (sp?) closes the feature off with a text just in from a viewer who 'used controlled crying over 5 days and now theirs sleeps through 7.30 to 6'. why would he need to do that?

I could see poor old kate garroway cringing into her sofa.

5 days of crying? I suppose, in the spirit of consistency, you'd have to do it for naps too? That makes me so sad.

There's a programme on later about children and sleep? [Hopeful emoticon]

Can I just say co-sleeping saved me. DD was 18mo before she slept through, and even now she wakes when she is teething (that's all the time then).But knowing I didn't actually have to get out of bed was amazing. I got a bedside cot, cos dh kept getting pushed out of bed and it was the best £100 I ever spent. Some days I couldn't tell you how often she woke or even if she did, I barely wake up myself.
I agree with what starlight said.

My DS was a terrible sleeper until 10 months. He woke every hour or so and we had to co-sleep. I got told the same things as you - I would have to sleep train him

I'm so glad I didn't. Time has sorted it out, and he now sleeps from 7.30 until 7am with just one wake up, at which point I let him into my bed. He just wasn't ready and I'm glad I didn't force it

Agree that lying (as in telling untruths, not as in being prone ) is a good strategy re: sleep. Otherwise you just get smug bitches telling you that their ones slept through from 8 weeks. So fucking what? It just makes them dull, docile and malleable - who wants to raise a kid like that?

I don't mean that of course - it just happened to me the other day and I contented myself with this thought in regard to the smug bitch parent in question.

Sleep training - good god, we've got the rest of our lives for training and routines. Let's get all the cuddles while we can.

Oh Belle, I said something along those lines to dh about a friends dd because she falls asleep playing on her own. They said hours go by and they realise her toys aren't making noises and she's just fallen asleep on the floor (5months). My dd would never do that. I felt bad afterwards but think its sad that they don't notice she's crashed out on the floor!

We had another tough night but I brought dd into our bed at 3am. Someone posted a description of the position to get into to feed from the boob furthest from their dc. I don't know who it was, I can't find the thread but they called it the running man position (er, I think - v tired!). I tried that last night and it was marvellous - I stayed on my left hand side all night but managed to switch boobs.

DD has decided this week that she will only sleep next to me if she's latched on. Onwards with my next challenge!!

My DS too HullabaLuLu - and my boobs get chilly what with the turn in weather...

what is this running man position?? sounds good, does anyone know?

My 11 month old DD3 was up 5 times last night, quick feed and back to sleep. I expected it, never thought she would sleep through, just went with the flow.

However, next month when she is one we start sleep training well not sleep training but when she wakes in the night she is going to get cuddles from Daddy just no boob in her mouth. Mummy will be out of the equation but she will always have Daddy there with her so she doesn't feel abandoned, once she realises waking means no milk hopefully she won't wake up. I am her dummy just now, she's not even feeding just a quick suck and drops off again.

DD2 was also a horrendous sleeper first year and this method we used worked for her after 2 nights.

As with everything else in parenting do exactly what YOU want and don't listen to the "advice"