14 week old getting hysterical when put to bed..

[Feeltrapped]

Hi there

Just looking for a bit of advice please.

DS (14 weeks) has always been pretty good at night. Until he was about 8 weeks we kept him down with us until we went to bed, but after then we started putting him down in his moses basket upstairs about 7.30 (after a bath and feed). He would then sleep until 3-4am, have a quick feed (breast fed) and go back down very quickly until 6-7am.

About 4 weeks ago we decided to move him to his cot (in our room) as he was out growing the moses basket but he seems to have a lot more trouble settling in his cot than the basket. To start with he would thrash around for ages so I rolled up a sheet and put in a U shape round him to make him feel more secure and this seemed to work for a while.

Recently though he has started to cry hysterically when he is put down. Occassionally he will go straight down but most nights we are both up and down for half an hour to an hour soothing him before he will settle?. tonight it has taken over 2 hours to get him to sleep properly. I know it doesn?t sound that long but I just find it hard to watch him so upset, even though I?m pretty sure there is nothing (physically) wrong with him as he quietens soon if picked up and inbetween crying tonight occasionally smiled at me!

I don?t want to keep picking him up as I think he has/will soon cotton on, so have been trying to sooth him by shushing/stroking him but with limited success.

It just feels like we are going backwards a bit and I?m worried its something I am doing wrong/ not doing. I feel a bit guilty as I?ve never really read any of the sleep books so have no idea about CC or other techniques that might help him settle himself. To be honest I feel I have been winging it a bit so far.

I would really welcome any advice as to the best way to get him to sleep my poor little man getting himself in such a state.

Hi Moom - you didn't sound critical at all. To be honest last night was pretty miserable but its normally not so bad, I think I just lost my perspective after the 10th trip upstairs!

Apart from just before bed, he's the happiest little thing you could meet - he's sat on my knee now coo-ing away - you wouldnt believe it was the same baby as last night!. May give the sling thing a try though as while he copes well without much sleep in the day, I think he would just feel so much better if he did manage a bit more sleep during the day and maybe this would have a knock on effect as night.

Starlight - I have to say that I agree with heated. I know it doesnt make sense but I know my own son and there are times he is undoubtedly exhausted but for whatever reason he just wont give in to sleep. Thats why keeping him down with me at night doesn't work, he just ends up in a state.. The only time he sleeps properly is when he is in his cot at night.

I appreciate you taking the time to share your methods though and I'm glad you have found a way that works for you. I also take on board your point about hunger.

Thanks Starlight. You are absolutely right about it being over before you know it - maybe i just need to relax a bit, give it time and most of all try an enjoy every precious minute

Starlight - Did you mean 16/17 weeks? Cos we're coming up for that in the not too distant future... [sinking feeling emoticon]

Agree re getting Baby Whiperer and also sounds like possible hunger. Sorry, haven't read the whole thread but just in case no-one else mentioned it. The Baby Whisperer Solves All Your Problems has a case study of a baby that suddenly develops cot phobia. Turns out that it is because the mother was putting the baby down when still hungry and a negative association quickly developed.

This happened to me when my baby was about 8 weeks old at his lunch time nap. Took me a week to realise he was hungry and the next day I read the case study in the book and it rang so true for me.

As others have said, also an excellent book for shush/pat (and PU/PD later).

mentioned the case study I mean, I know others mentioned hunger

The advice on shared sleep until 6 months includes daytime naps and early evening sleep too. Your baby shouldn't be sleeping alone in a room until he is at least 6 months old.

Mine both slept in sling, a reclining bouncer chair, or nursed or slept on my lap and came to bed with us until they were about 10 months or so.

Try to remember that breastfeeding is not just about food, it's a relationship and a way that he connects with you and is comforted. His need to be with you is still very strong at this age, you'll probably find he sleeps better through the day if he is in a sling or on your lap (a great excuse for watching movies or reading a book, one that you can't use so easily when it's your second/third etc baby!!) and then he won't be over-tired and upset in the evening. His fussiness and crying may also be him telling you that he wants to feed more. Lots of babies cluster feed in the evening, it helps them fill up for the night, and just because he seems to have nodded off on the boob, doesn't mean he isn't about to rouse slightly and nurse some more, so putting him down is going to make him unhappy!

Good luck!

Hi Feeltrapped - I just wanted to say that your DS sounds like my DD at that age. People will tell you about sleep training and different methods, and I really hope one of them works for you, but if I had my time again I would just go with instinct and try not to get too stressed. We tried shush pat, pick up put down, controlled crying - and you know what? None of them worked. DD is a very independent little madam and she beat us at our game every time. At the end of the day she wanted her mummy or her daddy to stay with her until she went to sleep, not necessarily holding her or feeding her, but just there. Sometimes we would bring her downstairs and she'd go to sleep on the sofa while we watched TV. Sometimes I'd sit with her upstairs nursing a glass of wine. The thing I realise now, and it's still the case, is that she was feeding off my stress so the more stressed I got about the fact she wasn't going to sleep the more she cried until we were both exhausted.

She's nearly 18 months now and mostly sleeping through, but we still have our nights where mummy or daddy end up sleeping in her room. Up until recently we were both working full time and tbh whatever got us all back to sleep the quickest was the best solution for us.

"At the end of the day she wanted her mummy or her daddy to stay with her until she went to sleep,"

I get really frustrated with the "teach them to settle off to sleep on their own" advice. If it is natural, and easiest, to settle a baby off to sleep whilst they are being rocked or fed, why would anyone think it was a bad idea? It is not natural in any way for a baby (or even a small child) to go to sleep alone, even as adults many of us like company whilst we sleep. (how many of you don't sleep well when your DH/DP is away? )

It may be that you have to spend an hour a night settling your baby/child off to sleep for the first couple of years, but is that such a huge sacrifice? I don't think so. It's only a few years in the big scheme of things, it won't be forever.

Whilst your DS is small make the most of those long cuddles on the sofa, take him to bed when you go up, not at 7.30. Forget any "alone time" with your DH/DP, you'll get that after a while, but right now it is all about your DS, he needs you far more than you and DH/DP need your evenings "back". Enjoy this baby stage, it won't be long before he is off and running and won't want to sit still and be cuddled, and you'll look back wistfully on these days!

Now Starlight, I absolutely disagree or rather I completely acknowledge different ways suit different parents and babies. I mentioned what worked well for us, and I know I am fortunate to have two children who sleep so, yes, I'm bound to favour what worked well for us - apart from those first few horrendous weeks with dc1 when we didn't have a clue!

To sleep is a biological instinct, clearly who would disagree with that, but so is breathing - my ds needed help with that when he was born otherwise he would have died - so is emptying your bowels - my ds needed help with that - and when my babies were little it helped them to sleep if we knew signs of tiredness to look out for. And I certainly do believe in children and babies getting overtired or being extremely cranky if they've had less sleep than they should. Babies of 14-16 weeks usually spend more time asleep than awake, but that doesn't seem to be happening for the OP's dc at the minute - hope you had a better day and night, Feeltrapped?

Starlight, you may possibly have misread my meaning or maybe I just wasn't clear as I should have been, as I wasn't proposing that babies go to sleep at some rigid hour whether tired or not, but that there are signs to look out for that let you know a baby is tired - fidgetiness, yawning, fractious kicking and waving of arms - so, a baby of that age awake at 7 might be expected to be getting tired about 3 hours later and to keep an eye out for the signs, feed them and put them to bed. I found getting them settled in the daylight with the comforting sounds of us and the house around them had knock on benefits to settling them at night.

Hey feelingtrapped - another vote here for the Baby Whisperer. My DD sounds quite similar to your DS, they are the same age too, and those books have been a great source of advice. She's someone who needs her sleep and sleeps better when in her bed in a quiet room rather than downstairs with us. In fact when we have our bedtime cuddles now she sometimes clearly WANTS to be put in her cot so she can get to sleep! Every family's different of course but if you think this sort of approach is best for your DS then don't feel guilty - you're just trying to help him get the sleep he needs to make him feel good.

I just want to add that I am a firm believer that some babies do get overtired. Mine was extremely alert and found the world a hugely overstimulating place, and sleep was almost impossible for him.

Babies haven't evolved to cope with alarm clocks, TVs, radios, traffic noise, shopping trips, constantly cooing and jiggling parents. When we lived in caves a newborn would hear birdsong if they were lucky, and the only movement they would get would by normal motion as they were carried around all day. So while sleep is a normal biological function, for some (not all, evidently) babies it is really hard to sleep in the modern world. Especially if that baby also has pain from reflux or wind.

That's my interpretation of what we went through with mine - it was really tough for him.

Thanks all for your help and advice - have ordered a copy of the baby whisperer so will def give that a go.

Greenmonkies - I apprectiate you taking the time to reply and tell me what works for you but I resent the implication that this is about getting my evenings back/time alone with DP. Far from it. LIke Drenched says it is about helping my little DS get the sleep he needs to feel good. And unfortunately what works for you, doesn't work with him. By 7.30 or so he is very tired and simply isn't happy to sit and cuddle up on the sofa. Perhaps it is because he is over tired and thats something Ican work on but by this time, nothing can console him and like Drenched's DD he just wont relax or sleep until he is down in a quiet room.

DS comes first always with me and he doesn't want for cuddles and love, just because he doesn't stay down with us until we go to bed.

Just to give you an update, after a horrendous night last night, things were much better this evening . After a nice bath, a long feed/cuddle as usual, I put him down - he started to get upset again but 15 minutes of sitting with him making shussing noises and stroking his face and tummy he was fast asleep. Such a relief as the poor little man was knackered!

And in answer to your question GreenMonkies, no I don't think an hour a day is a huge sacrifice. I would happily sit with him all night if that is what he needed - but until very recently he has gone to sleep very happily so I'm simply trying to achieve this again.

Obviously I haven't received the book yet but from the sounds of it, it may be just what I was looking for for a bit of guidance so thanks for the suggestion

No, no, sorry, that wasn't what I meant. I know that there is a tremendous amount of pressure to "get your lives back" when you have a baby. And it is why most people try to put very young babies "to bed" so early.

But I wasn't telling you what works for me, I was telling what babies instinctively expect. They need the close contact, and are able to sleep in all kinds of noisy situations, and "in arms" is where babies are designed to be, not alone in rooms. In our ancestors time a baby left alone away from adults was a baby that was very vulnerable to predators, so babies are conditioned by millions of years of evolution to be able to sleep on laps or in arms, and as such, and the only reason your DS needs a quiet room to settle is because that is what he is used to now.

I'm sorry you felt like I was having a go at you, I wasn't, I was trying to reassure you that his reaction to being put in a cot alone was actually quite normal and to be expected, and explaining why.

Personally I don't rate The Baby Whisperer, her methods are not very breastfeeding friendly, and all the bf mothers who I know that have tried it have either abandoned the book or abandoned breastfeeding. My favourite "parenting" books are "three in a bed" by Deborah Jackson, and "Attachment Parenting" by Katie Granju. No routines to follow, just explanations of natural baby behaviour and suggestions on how to meet your baby's needs and live in harmony with him, rather than trying to mould or train him at all, which most other "guru" books tend to do.

Two things spring to mind that you might want to try, and sorry, have not read all the posts.

Both my DC' were still being swaddles at that age I think - they liked it - made them feels secure. Have NO idea on current guidelines for swaddling so maybe someone else can chip in on that.

Also, I would think that less than an hours sleep in the day is very little for such a small baby. I suspect your DC might be over-tired. Think of how your brain goes when you're really wired (not hard at the moment I would have thought ). It becomes very difficult for them to settle without a lot of comforting, shushing, feeding, patting etc.

I was a routine mum, which doesn't suit all I know, but I always got them down for a nap in the morning around 9am for at least half an hour and then a good two hours over lunch. The both were pretty good babies and I considered myself part lucky, and partly this was down to having a flexible routine that meant they hardly ever got overtired or cranky.

Beware of all the advise on this thread as well, as in, beware of it all boggling your brain. Try the tips that feel like they would suit you, or feel like they're in tune with your thinking. See what works for you - discard the rest.

We are all such different people, and we need different strategies depending on our personalities and lifestyles.

Hope that's of some help.

Good luck.

Sorry, obviously I took your post more personally than you intended.

However while I agree about babies being designed to settle "in arms" etc, I disagree strongly that the only reason my DS needs a quiet room to settle is "because that is what is used to now".

(Actually the quiet bit isn't even true - he has slept wonderfully both at bowling and a wedding disco!)

When he was first home with us obviously he was down with us in the evening, snuggled up on the sofa as you suggested. We started putting him down to bed at 7ish because when he got to 8/9 weeks he would no longer settle down with us at nights. By this time (probably because he sleeps so little in the day but that is another issue) and would become very fractious & agitiated. No amount of cuddling on our laps would console him so we thought we would try putting him down. As soon as we did he instantly relaxed and would very happily fall asleep very quickly. This crying when he goes down is a very recent thing.

During the day he loves nothing more than being in my arms but at night when he is very tired, he doesn't seem to take comfort in this (shame really as I love being snuggled up with him!). I accept this may unusual or go against the natural order of things but that's just the way he is.

Sorry, have just read Greenmonkies post and with all due respect, I am a bit that intentionally or not, your post is liable to make the OP feel guilty about putting a baby down to sleep on it's own in a cot, in a dark room, like that's some terrible, heartless thing to do. I'm sorry, but that's how your post has come across.

What's wrong with a bit of peace and quiet when a baby is going to sleep? By your logic, babies put to sleep constantly in noisy environments then presumably struggle to sleep when eventually they are in situations where they must do that?

Both my DC's slept in their own rooms from about 10 weeks and are now thriving almost 2 an 4 year olds and two more happy, contented and joyous souls you'd be hard pressed to find.

Just thought I'd mention that I exclusively bf my DD (14wks) and we LOVE the baby whisperer book, its a life saver. Though I realise that it won't suit everyone.

Sycamoretree - I think you and others are absolutely right that he is very over tired. My mum says she has never known a baby to sleep so little! Last night (this is an exception as he will normally have 12 hours during the night) he only had about 9 hours sleep and still has slept for less than half an hour all day .

I'm sure this is why he is so fractious in the evenings (and hence even cuddles don't console him) and is something I really need to work on.

I have thought of swaddling but he seems to hate even having covers on him so not sure he would take to it. Worth a go I guess.

I couldn't agree more that different things work for different people. Thank you for your support x

FT - good luck. FWIW, my two always settled better for day time naps, particularly the morning nap. Dark room, swaddled, returning for the shushing and patting if necessary. I always have them a minute or two to try and sort themselves out first. Evenings are always hardest, even if they napped well in the day. My DS would go NUTS if I tried to put him down a minute after 6pm.

DD was dummyless - DS didn't drop his until he was 15 months. I killed myself over his dummy but wise Mnetters have taught me to always ask "will this matter when they're 18?" If not, do whatever it takes to get through. He needed one, DD didn't - again, different strokes.

And DD was FF and DS was BF - just in case that means anything? They both responded to the same way of parenting and routine.

Hope to see you back on these boards soon with a new posting name