Please, please help me with my 8mo - can't cope much more - sorry, long post

[WibblyPigRocks]

My 8mo DS goes to sleep brilliantly, on his own, very happy after a textbook bedtime routine at 7ish every night.

After that, all bets are off. He often wakes up screaming an hour or two after going to bed, although occasionally he can go three hours. I nearly always end up BFing him back to sleep - sometimes he'll take quite a lot, sometimes not.

He could then wake every two hours, but it's usually a lot more random and he's not usually distressed like he is at the start of the night. Last night, he woke at 10pm, 12.20am, 1.30am, 2.30am, 3.20am, 5.20am and then woke for the day at 7.30am. I fed him each time until 5.20, when DH took him into our bed on his side and DS went back to sleep. This happens most mornings, which DH is happy enough with although he doesn't sleep himself and neither do I really.

When I say I fed him, I mean sometimes it can be a full boob, sometimes it's barely anything. Again, no pattern. However, if he actually feeds more at night, he won't take much milk in the morning.

He may well be hungry sometimes, but I am 100% positive that this is not usually the case, so please, please don't post that at 8mo it's normal to still feed so much at night, that at 8mo I shouldn't expect him to sleep more than a few hours at a time and that everyone of my BFing friends who says their baby is now sleeping at least a stretch of 7 hours is lying.

Something has got to change and I haven't got a bloody clue what to do.

What's your view on controlled crying? That's an obvious option

i would be tempted to give him a cuddle and put him back with no feed, then next try giving him sips of water instead of bf. Give him plenty of bf in day and plenty of food so he isn't hungry and maybe a supper before bed too.
My dd was bf and i didn't bf at night after 6 months, just offered water and it broke the habit.
{smile]

I am sorry I cant help much as I never bf my children but big hugs as lack of sleep makes you feel so crappy. Have you tried him on solids yet ?

please, please don't post that at 8mo it's normal to still feed so much at night, that at 8mo I shouldn't expect him to sleep more than a few hours at a time and that everyone of my BFing friends who says their baby is now sleeping at least a stretch of 7 hours is lying.

hmmmm...sorry to say it....!

No, in all seriousness I don't think your friends are lying, BUT I know my dd's sleep pattern was almost exactly like that literally up until 3 weeks ago, and she is 14mths. And I've read plenty of threads on here which say the same.

Where does your ds sleep? From about 6-13mths I co-slept, at least for part of the night with dd, as it was the only way I could survive. A few weeks ago we decided to try something different, moved her to her own room. I only feed her once in the night now, dh picks her up and re-settles her all the other times that she wakes (so no boobs!) and within the first couple of weeks she has cut down to only 1 or 2 wakenings each night (there have been some bad nights but mainly teeth related.) She goes 7.30/8 until 1/2am most nights- unheard of before. Maybe you could try something like that?

Sorry if you've already tried it, but do you use a dummy? I find popping one in can often settle them if they've just woken for a grizzle and aren't really hungry.

You could try deciding what you think are reasonable intervals for him to feed, and refusing the breast if he wakes before whatever time you've decided.

When I night-weaned dd1 at 8 months, I just did everything I could to calm her and help her settle except for feeding. It was horrendous the first night but actually that one night sorted it. It will probably be harder for you because he is waking and feeding so very often, but I suspect you will probably need to tough it out for a few nights to help him discover that he doesn't need to feed to get back to sleep. I'm sure he doesn't actually need to be eating at night any more, it will just be his way of getting back to sleep.

Have you read the No-Cry Sleep Solution?

Controlled crying.

He doesn't know how to settle back to sleep on his own. He isn't hungry every time you feed him.

If you don't want to do controlled crying then you could try Elizabeth Pantley's No Cry Sleep Solution. She describes a night similar, if not worse, to the one you describe above as her starting point. I think her child was quite a lot older, maybe 12 months old?

Anyway, cc worked very well for my dd at 9 months. For ds I looked at the Elizabeth Pantley book (it was newly published) but decided in the end it was just prolonging the process of getting ds to sleep for a decent period independent of the boob, and did controlled crying for him, again at about 9 or 10 months.

I do feel for you.

My ds2 was getting more and more like this. He's bf too. Once he was eating 3 good meals a day (7 months)I decided that enough was enough and went into "operation sleep through the night" mode!

I decided that I wasn't going to feed him afetr 11pm or before 6am and that was that. I knew that he was eating and drinking plenty outside of those hours so he didn't need to feed in the night aswell (He's a big boy - on 98th centile!).

I just patted and shushed him when he woke in the night and he would finally setlle back to sleep. For the first few nights he still had his dummy but he was then waking every time that dropped out so I went cold turkey with that too!

For 4 nights I was up loads with him and for up to 2 hours at a time, but then it settled very quickly. A month later he goes to bed at 7pm, has a dreamfeed about 10.30 and then sleeps through until 7am ish (apart from when he's teething - but I don't give him milk even then - just water sometimes).

It's up to you really - some people seem happy to keep going with night feeds, but if you're lik me and had enough then there are ways of tackling it.

WibblyPigRocks - I am going to suggest something that my wife tells every mother who has a constantly crying baby boy.

Give him a bottle. I know, I know. But it may just be that a baby boy who is growing fast is just really hungry and perhaps thirsty.

My wife could never keep up with our DS1 right from the start. She wanted to breast feed but he just wanted more than she had to give him and he cried a lot until he got the bottle then he quickly reached 2 x 8oz in each sitting. That is far more than a human can produce.

Imagine being constantly hungry and thirsty -you would cry would you not?

It may not be this but its worth a try.

Apart from that - I assume you have had him to the doctor to check he is not ill in some way?

LPAVM - I've always said I don't like controlled crying - I read a horrible description of what it's like for a baby once and it freaked me out - but I don't know now is the honest answer.

Aranea - I have looked briefly at NCSS before - do you really think it will work? I agree, I think it is just his way of getting back to sleep now, although I'm always baffled that he can do it so happily at the start of the night!!

Charity - I'd happily use a dummy but he won't take a plastic teat. I left it too long before introducing a bottle and he's never taken one. I'd wanted to give up BFing before now - I still want to give up soon - but the fact that he won't take a bottle, coupled with the fact he has a dairy allergy, has made this more troublesome

Thanks for all posts. Any thoughts very welcome - I need hope that this isn't going to last for another 6 months and that I can give up BFing soon.

Just read some other posts.

BetaDad - as you can see from my previous post, a bottle wouldn't help here, but in other circumstances, I would have loved to have given it a go.

I haven't been to the doctor - I've assumed that if I go and say my baby is up all night they'll tell me that's motherhood and to just deal with it!!

Sometimes, it seems like I blame everything on teething and wind!

Agree with Iwish and Aranea. There are ways of doing it without controlled crying.

We decided on a time we would feed after and made that one feed a night for a bit - I think we said we wouldnt feed before 3. All the other times that first night my dp went in and patted and shhhd and held and then put down again.

That took only 1 night and a couple of weeks after that she started going to 5am anyway.

You do have to be consistant and see it through and be prepared for one night of not sleeping - if you think you're not ready then I dont think you should start. But on the other hand I think they get harder to sleep train as you go on and then you may need to use other methods.

Both of my two settled themselves to sleep beautifully, then went bad sometime about 2 hours in, so I totally and absolutely feel your pain.

I genuinely think they both needed some milk in the night at 8 months, and for a few months after that, but I definitely didn't feel they needed as much as they were getting, so we made a few rules - nothing with 3 hours of going to bed, nothing for 3 hours after the first feed. Then tried gradually lengthening the process. dh would go in to settle them - just sit with them stroking them or cuddling them to get them used to the idea of going back to sleep without milk. We managed to get rid of most of the night feeds this way and got down to 1 or 2 wake ups. With dd, we tried cc at about 12 months and it worked like a dream after 1 night. With ds, we didn't really try and he just started sleeping through of his own accord eventually (won't tell you when, it's not particularly encouraging!).

But, you could just try cutting out one, or two, feeds that way. How would you feel about sending dh in with a bottle? I took the view with ds that as he was on solids at 8 months, a bottle of formula was just another type of food, and it wasn't replacing breast milk as lots of babies his age weren't having any milk of any sort in the night...I found if I could just get one night's good sleep once a week, I could function. I used to go round to my (childfree) neighbour's house at 10pm, fall into bed, set the alarm for 6am and be back before the dcs woke up, feeling great.

Good luck. It's truly utterly miserable. I have so much sympathy for you.

I spent months and months blaming everything on teething with dd1. I still don't know for sure whether it was or not, but calpol did seem to help.... I assume you've tried that??

Am now entering the frequent waking teething zone with dd2. Aargh.

WibblyPig - actually can I just ask how much food/bfs he's having during the day - if you were happy with it then you could be more confident about not feeding him at night maybe?

Wibbly, is he sleeping in your room or his own? Really feel for you as know how at the end of your tether you can get from lack of sleep.

You need Jay Gordon
a bf-friendly non-CC gentle hippy sleep plan
[rummages]
here

I know he says it; sfor older babies but if you're going to do something it's better than any other I've seen

dd is 18m and we are on night 3 of remarkable success

But controlled crying doesn't have to be vile. You could go in every couple of minutes, give him a cuddle and put him down again. You could try giving him water in a bottle every other time he wakes too?

I think he's waking and crying because he doesn't know how to get back to sleep again and you need to teach him how to do it.

Non MN hugs to you - I know how hard it is x

oh well done MrsBadger.

Giantkatestacks - here's a reasonable average day (although I'm not a stickler for routine so this varies a bit depending on how our day goes):

7am - BF (sometimes very little)

8.30am - breakfast - baby porridge or similar made with 90ml rice milk (dairy allergy - rice milk only used to replace water, not milk IYSWIM)

10am - small BF before nap

12.30/1pm - lunch - such as chicken, grape and courgette - one AK frozen cube- pureed fruit

2.30ish - large BF before nap

5.00pm - dinner - such as beef casserole - one cube - finger food such as fruit, toast etc

6.30pm - large BF before bedtime story

What do you think? He's never been a very enthusiastic eater, I have to say.

I'm off to bed now. Thank you for all your comments - please continue!!!!!

Oh, I will just say that he has been in his own room, in his cot, since he was 6mo.

Goodnight x

Just wanted to say that you have described my DS (now 12 months) exactly wibblypig. My paed (and cranial osteopath's) reckons he was in so such pain with the undiagnosed dairy allergy as a tiny baby that he just does not know how to stay asleep.
CC has not worked and whenever he is in pain (with teeth/jabs/fever) he screams and screams and only the breast will do.
BUT my friend also had the same and when her DD started walking there was a big chnage so I am hanging out for that!
I don't know about you but some days I can cope with being up every 90 minutes in the night, and sometimes it feels like the worse thing in the world. They only thing we can trust is it won't last forever!!!

Abetadad - "My wife could never keep up with our DS1 right from the start. She wanted to breast feed but he just wanted more than she had to give him and he cried a lot until he got the bottle then he quickly reached 2 x 8oz in each sitting. That is far more than a human can produce." Sorry but that is simply not true. Your wife's supply would have dropped eventually but only because of the bottle use. I mix feed my dd so have nothing against bottles, but what you have written is incorrect.

wibblypig from looking at your daily routine the only thing I am not sure of is how much is in each "cube" as we didn't puree - but the times etc look the same as my dd at that age.

I couldn't personally do CC but that's up to you. NCSS was very sensible reading IMO, but getting dh to settle dd at night, and setting time intervals as others have said, eg don't feed between 11-5 or whatever you choose, have been the most helpful to me. Good luck!

Just wanted to add that all the feeding in the night might be affecting his daytime appetite (which then in a vicious circle means he is hungry at night). If you are able to get through a night without feeding him it might help.
Otherwise, have you tried offering a beaker of milk at night?

I'm not sure if this will help, but for comparison here is how my 8 months old ds's day goes:

7am - Bf

8am Breakfast - 1 weetabix or porridge with ff milk. Water to drink

9.30am - bed

11.30am - snack - fruit/rice cake/breadstick - with water to drink

12.30pm - lunch. On the couple of occasions he's had a jar of food he's eaten a whole stage 3 one!! Otherwise scrambled egg/cheese on toast or a sandwich (1 round of bread) with fruit/ yoghurt / fruit puree for dessert. Water to drink

1.00pm ish bed again!

3.00pm - snack (as 11.30am) with water

5.30pm - dinner. Spaghetti bolognese or casserole type thing. Dessert similar to lunchtime and water to drink

7.00pm - BF then bed

10.30pm - BF (dreamfeed)