13 months old - now sleeping appallingly - should I resort to CC or just hope it sorts itself out?

[designerbaby]

Hi all, sorry, already posted this in the behaviour section before realisng it should probably rather be here... doh - blame sleep deprivation?! Sorry also for the MAHOOSIVE post. TMI, undoubtedly...

My DD used to be a brilliant sleeper - slept through from 3 months - 8/9months with not a peep. However, since then things have been going steadily down hill, and at the moment she is waking hourly (or less) throughout the night, bar a stint of about 3 hours between about 2.30 and 5.30am.

I have gone back to work, and am struggling to cope with the sleep deprivation and seem to keep getting ill - largely because I am run down, I think...

What's making it worse is that I have this nagging feeling that it's all my own fault because I have somehow 'done' sleep wrongly with her from the get-go.

Now I'm at breaking point and am considering controlled crying or CIO or something because I simply cannot go on the way I am, even though it goes completely against my parenting style and the thought of it makes me feel physically ill.

I know, in my head there are probably many reasons why she may not be sleeping - for brevity I'll just bullet what i think are possibly some of the pertinent points:

1. She has always been cuddled to sleep - even though I had the best of intentions about 'putting down awake' having read the necessary books, this simply didn't work for her even as a tiny newborn, so we cuddled, she liked it, I liked it, it worked, so we still do it. And I still like it...

1. She's been teething off and on since about 8 months and seems to have a hard time of it - lots of runny noses, face rubbing, ear pulling, off food etc. I think she's probably teething badly at the moment, but I can't see any teeth near the surface so...

1. She's just started to walk

1. She still has a dummy for sleep times, but doesn't seem bothered when it falls out. However she does seem to need it to fall back to sleep again if she wakes, but this didn't seem to be a problem twixt 3 and 9 months, so...??

1. When she wakes in the night I give it a few minutes (probably actually only a minute, in reality) to see if she'll settle herself ? which she sometimes does, but more often nowadays, doesn't... then I go in, she's usually standing up. Attempts to lie her back down without a cuddle result in fairly rapid hysteria.

1. Tried Calpol/Calprofen for teething pain - helps for a couple of hours (tops) but that's it. Medised knocks her out for 4/5 hours but makes her impossible to settle when she does wake after this

1. She sleeps in a grobag plus a blanket as her room is quite cold.

1. She has a pretty good routine of regular nap time ? usually 12.45ish to 2.15ish although I often have to resettle her after 45 minutes or so ? and regular meal times and bedtime is about 7.30 when she usually goes down fairly easily. She wakes at about 6 am and then sleeps another hour in our bed.

10. I went back to work at 9 months - she's been looked after by my mum, seems happy, but is a little clingy with me when I come home.

11. After a difficult weaning period between 4 and 8 months she now eats well, but doesn't want much milk - 5 or so ounces morning and night with lots fo cheese/yoghurt etc in between. She's not interested in milk if she wakes - tried that.

So, after that lengthy ramble, do you think this is something which will sort itself in time (if I felt that, maybe I could get through it easier...) or do you, in all your various wisdom and experience think I need to take action?

I've read NCSS, and while I like the approach and tried it for a week, I got nowhere and now I just feel too damn tired to slog it out in this way. I want a quick fix, but am aware there probably isn't one other than CIO/CC.

Apart from this, I should mention she's a happy, smiley, energetic, engaging, charming little sweetheart - and I would hate to jeopardise that... it's just...

I neeeeeeed some sleeeeeeep [sob]

db
xx

The difference between 3-9 months and now is separation anxiety. It takes a while. Molars are much, much more painful than the other teeth and are apparently most painful when moving through the jaw, not breaking the gum, hence hurting 1-2 months before there's any other sign.

You did not cause your DD's sleep issues. (Should I say that again?) You did not cause your DD's sleep issues. You made bedtime a pleasant, happy experience for all and you will reap dividends when she's older and no longer in a cot. We have had a mare of it with DS, still regularly waking every HALF HOUR during teething pain (at 22 mth) but we respond to his needs and at bedtime/nap time he runs to the bedroom saying "Come on, Mummy!" and while it has been 2 years nearly of difficult nights, it's better than 10 years of difficult bedtimes/nights.

Thanks Ches... I did probably need to hear that it's not ALL my fault - it's hard enough being up most of the night but when you're sittin gthere at 3am thinking - "I've brought this ALL on myself, stupid, idiot Mummy..." it doesn't make the sleep deprivation any easier to bear...

I guess there's a lot going on her lttle life at the moment.

Had another thought this evening and moved her episode of 'In the Night Garden' to between supper and bath, rather than with her bottle before bed. Resoning is that she now gets quite excited by it, and maybe it wasn't the calm wind-down it was a few months ago. Replaced it with a book and a cuddle in her nursery.

Also gave her a dram of Calprofen as was drooling and face rubbing like a mad thing. Hate using any kind of drugs on a regular basis, but she's showing all signs of teething so it seems the kindest thing.

So we'll see... At least I know I'm trying various things - gives me something to do, anyway?!

I did always want sleep times to be lovely cuddly snuggly times (I LOVE my bed, always have...) which is why I was probably reluctant to be as firm as I maybe should have been in those early days. And, indeed they are, but I worry now that she's not able to self settle, and wont be able to unless I 'teach' her somehow.

NCSS is probably the way to go, for me if anything - I just really haven't the physical, mental or emotional energy... Rock vs. hard place, anyone?

I hope you're right about the long-term benefits... That'd be lovely, wouldn't it?

db
xx

we've just done pick up/put down with our 13 month old and unbelieveably it's worked.

we've always rocked him to sleep since birth and so i really didn't think it would work. He would always wake at least 3 times a night and at the very least need his dummy putting back in, at worst we'd have to walk him in the kitchen with the extractor fan on

I had a week off work so decided to bite the bullet and do it when i could catch up on sleep during the day (ds went to nursery!). I think this is the key. I don't think i could have done it if i didn't know that i could rest during the day!

obviously ds was teething and had a cold when i had time off but i tried it anyway!

1st night it took about 45 mins of pu/pd to get him to sleep. he then slept about 5 straight hours (never done this before) so was obviously getting himself back to sleep when he woke in the night.

long story short, by the 3rd night i could put him in the cot awake, leave the room and he would babble for a bit then fall asleep.

he'll pretty much sleep all night now (although it went a bit pear shaped last week with a growth spurt!)

hth

She is able to self settle because she has been for months and months - MUCH better than my lo. In all those months she would have been stirring in the night but going back off again on her own. Something has obviously changed recently and as ches says You Did Not Cause Your DD's Sleep Issues. Really.
That theory of letting them drop off on their own being the only way to do it is balls, imo. Your daughter is evidence of that.

I agree & think that it is teeth/separation and if possible you should try and ride it out for a little while longer if you can, although you must be absolutely shattered. If in 2 weeks time things are still as bad then maybe you could review things. Personally I think you have to be at rock bottom before being able to carry through CC.

Thanks for all your helpful posts... Really DID hit rock bottom last night, as DD was up every 45minutes throughout the night. GAve her some Calpol before bed, and when she still wouldn't settle and was refusing to go back into her cot at 11.30pm gave her some Calprofen. She still refused to settle, would wake, fall asleep almost immediately when cuddled, but wake up about 20 minutes after being put in her cot and cry again.

However, I really think it was separation/having us on, because at one point when I picked her up she actually laughed. And when we finally gave up (at about 3.30 having had NO sleep) and hauled her into our bed she slept without so much as a murmur until 7am.

So I don't think it was teething pain as I don't think she'd settle as quickly when picked up, or sleep as well when with us if she was in pain. Do you agree?

Might give PU/PD a try tonight if/when she wakes...

hmmm... zzzzzzz...

Hi designerbaby, my dd is 12.5mths and sounds very similar to yours sleepwise, although her period of sleeping "well" was more like 3/4mths, it's been downhill ever since!
No advice, just sympathy, I am back FT as well and feel your pain re the exhaustion. My only solution - which I don't think is a solution at all just a fix for now - has been to tale dd in with me into bed - she still wakes and looks for a feed/cry/crawl around but I feel less disturbed than when I get up, take 100 attemps to get her back in her cot etc.

HI all, well the 45 minute wakings seems to have stopped (thank heavens..) but we are back to 2 hourly... like clockwork, down to bed at 7.30 last night, and up at 9.30, 11.30, 1.30, 3.30 and into our bed at 5.30. Better but still pretty awful - she never woke this much when she was a newborn!

Tried PU/PD the night before last, but after an hour and a half she still wasn't down and was almost hysterical - very distressed. Don't know if I could face that again for a bit. In the end I caved and cuddled her to sleep again - bu that took a further half an hour for her to calm down.

Does this mean that PU/PD won't work with her? Should I try again? I'm willing to give it another go if the consensus is that it will work - but what do I do if she gets as distressed as last time? I think I was doing it right (I read the book...)

Last night I tried a more NCSS way of doing things - i.e. holding her until she was nearly fast asleep and then putting her down. Took 5 attempts but on the last attempt I think I missed the 'sleepy but awake' window and she was pretty gone by the time I put her down, so that was kind of cheating. Trouble is, she seems to go from wide awake to completely goners in a nanosecond, so it's quite hard to find that in between stage.

Anyway, sorry, I'm rambling again. I'm just sooooo tired...

Any thoughts or suggestions more than gratefully recieved...

db
xx

Only really scan read other posts. Saw that your DD won't take milk in the night, will she have a drink of water?
This next bit is a bit waffling so bear with me!
My DS is 17 months old and has only ever slept through the night about twice. Dropped milk feed at about 10 months but recently started having drink at night. I was giving it to him in bottle however, which he loved and had about two every night which resulted in a couple of nappy changes too-nightmare! Should add we'd been co-sleeping on and off since birth, I'd let him go in cot initially then sleep with him when he woke up. Being back at work and a single mum I was starting to go slightly insane, sleep deprivation is an evil thing! My DS has never taken himself to sleep either.
So couple of weeks ago I binned the cot (barely in it anyway). He goes into his bedroom after bath about half 7. Has his books and toys for a while if he wants. Then into bed with a beaker of milk. Leave him with his milk. He gets really dozy, nearly going to sleep on his own but not quite. Cuddle him to sleep for about 20 mins then when he wakes in night has drink in beaker which he is much less keen on and goes back to sleep with dummy. Only wakes once now if that so much improved than the 3/4 times it was before. Although he still doesn't take himself to sleep on his own yet I feel we're getting there slowly and this works better for me than CIO, I hate it!
I guess my point is that you can do things gradually as well if that works better for you. You say you like cuddling her to sleep and she likes it so who cares? I'm sure she won't need you cuddling her to sleep when she's 21. Will she go to sleep if you are just in the room perhaps tidying up or something so she doesn't associate going in her cot with you going as well. When DS goes to bed I have to tidy up, his room permanently looks like a bomb hit it

Hi Muffins,
I do offer her a drink of water from a beaker - which she's happy enough to take during the day ? she'll have a sip but gets really cross if i try and get her to take any more.

Up until now I've been in favour of just waiting it out, figuring that at some point it HAS to get better ? however it just seems to be getting worse, I'm permanently knackered and everything is suffering, work, relationship with DH, health, the lot.

So I feel liek I need to DO something about it, and need, if not a 'quick' fix, at least a not overly lengthy fix as I've really come to the end of my rope.

I'm going along the NCSS lines at the moment - and trying to put her down when drowsy but not completely asleep. With limited success, as I've said. And I've a horrible feeling it's going to take forever, and more energy than I have and have my doubts that we'll get anywhere with it.

Which is why CC seems an attractive (well, not really but you know what I mean) option sometimes, and a short sharp solution - a few evenings of agony and then glorious, blessed sleep...

Problem is I'm a total softie/wimp and have a horrible feeling I'd cave in after 20 minutes. Or that my lovely happy, secure little girl would disappear...

db
xx

I have a friend who did CC and it worked for her although her and DH did get up to some pretty lengthy crying period sometimes. Lots of people swear by it. Maybe just say to yourself that you'll give it a go for a week, and religiously stick to it for that period of time. From what I've heard lots of people often find it a success before then. And then if at the end of the week no improvement then think again....
It's difficult I'm a wimp too x

but then I have friends who say CC just makes things worse + on a quick scan of your posts, if you couldn't cope with PUPD without caving in, I'd say you haven't a chance with CC
Why not go the other way though. Am saying this from memory as DS is now four, but we caved in too much and kept picking up and cuddling, then realised that was daft as it was perpetuating his need to be picked up. In the end what worked was putting a camping mattress on the floor next to DS's cot, so I was there next to him as soon as he woke. I refused to pick him up at all, but sat next to his cot and would softly hum and put a reassuring hand on his chest, or stroke his hair if he'd lie down for long enough. First night was awful but I persisted and stuck to not picking up until he collapsed to lying down with exhaustion, second he soon let me lie him back down - third he was still waking, but stayed lying down and allowed me to stroke his hair until he nodded off again and so on. Took a while, but the theory was that if we was less awake he'd go back to sleep quicker, and then gradually wake less and so on. I suppose in a way it's CC without abandoning them, so kinder. It's horrendous to hear them scream, but if you're right next to them, somehow it's copeable with (wear ear plugs!). Worked for us and I did get back into my own bed after not too long, I promise. Whatever you do though, be consistent and do it soon before you go under.

A Breakhrough!!??

I think... hope...

After another horrible night of two-hourly wakings, I decided to steel myself and gove PU/PD another go, determined not to cave in this time.

Welll, it took 2 hours - the first hour was like a game to my DD - standing up, bouncing up and down, throwing her dummy across the room, laughing etc. I just kept laying her down saying, night night Issie, lie down and go to sleep. After an hour of this, she seemed to realise I was serious, and we had another three quarters or soe of an hour crying, sitting up. I just kept lying her back down, saying the same thing - only when she got really upset did I pick her up and then she stopped imediately. Eventually the spaces between sit ups got less, and eventually she fell asleep with me just laying a hand on her back and rubbing just occassionally.

It was about a quarter past nine, and I was knackered at this point, my back was killing me from lifting her and bending over.

So I was pretty gutted when she woke up at about 10.15 crying... It took another 15/20 minutes of pick up put down and some back rubbing but she went back to sleep without my picking her up.

She next woke at...

6.30 am!!!

That's, like, 8 hours of unbroken sleep!! Which I haven't had for MONTHS.

She also took a 1 3/4 hour nap today, in her pram. Another first... woke up once (an alarm went off in a shop which could have woken the dead) and settled herself back to sleep, which she NEVER does...

Am determined to do the same tonight and hopefully it takes less than 2 hours.

I really didn't think it would work, and was on the point of calling it quits when she finally went off.

We'll see. Maybe we'll crack it after all.

Just DELIRIOUS after those 8 hours...

db
xx

Hmmm.. so thi si how it's going...

Night before last took 45 minutes to go down at bedtime - but no rying, just a lot of messing about! Last night about half an hour, again no crying just messing... I have to be there though as she stands up and throws her dummy out of the cot and can't get it back, get back down, etc.

Night wakings area bit of a mare though... night befor elast she held out for an hour and half, last night was 2 hours ... alhtough she kept drifting off to sleep fairly easily she then woke after 10 minutes or so and we had to repeat the process. It was only after a fairly lengthy session with quite a bit of crying that she finally went down and stayed down.

Is this normal? Will it improve do you think? At least I'm getting 2 fairly decent tranches of sleep, and my evenings back, so it is an improvement, but could do without being up at 3amish for a couple of hours!

I wonder if I'm confusing the issue, as because we're on holiday (and I'm knackered) when she wakes at 6.30 am, rather than just getting her up for the day I'm hauling her into bed with us where she sleeps another hour and a half... I wonder whether she's expecting/hoping for this at 3am?

Am loath to stop this as I love my holiday lie-ins with a snuggly baby, but will do whatever it takes, I suppose . It won't be an issue by Monday anyway as she'll have to be up for nursery at 6.30.

Another positve is that her daytime napping is also much improved and she's been having between an hour and a half and 2 hours at lunchtime, often waking after 45 minutes but resettling herself quickly - rather than my having to go in and resettle her or hold her for another 45 as I used to.

I suppose it's all good - it's just the earlies that are a bit depressing...

Will stick at it and keep you posted...

db
xx

8 hours!

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Took DD up for bed at 7.15, after story and cuddle put her down at 7.30 - after the usual 45 minutes of messing about (including jumping up to standing and going "BOOM!" -honstly it's ahrd not to laugh) ending with about 5 mminutes of crying she was down at about 8.15.

Had a breif waking at 10ish (daddy clattering about in the bathroom... tsk...)

She then woke at...

6.15AM!!

Yanked her into our bed and she slept until 8am....

I'm almost delirious from the amount of sleep I've had after having almost zilch for so long...

So it CAN work...

YIPPEE... (let's hope it continues...!?)

db
xx

p.s. Sorry Ches... Keep at it?

This thread has me hooked...is like my life at moment. DD is 8 and a bit months and has started sleeping terribly. Was almost at point of CC but will hang on in there with the PUPD.

I also haul her in to bed at 6.30 and was wondering if that meant that she was expecting it in the wee small hours? It is cheating and we used to be V strict on NO OUR BED but that was when she slept better and I didn't need to! Now I wonder if getting her in with us confuses her. Maybe if I bite the bullet and get up early will help. Doesn't sound like fun though.

Sorry to hijack - this thread has been so useful to me though - has given me some hope of having some sleep one day!

I'm sorry to hijack this thread, but I've just started a thread for the exact same thing on the sn board. I'm very intrigued to know what is involved in the pickup/put down technique.

What do I actually have to do?

I'm about to start controlled crying but it upsets me so much to hear her screaming.

Is a babywhisperer thing, and what is involved depends on the age of the baby. Basically, you put them down at bedtime, if don't settle, pick up briefly, calm but without rocking etc and put down again straight away. Is not to be used for under 3 months, for them she recommends something she calls 'Shush pat' which is, well, shushing and patting them off to calmness and sleepiness.
When wake and cry you pick up so are soothed, then put down in firm but loving manner. If cry pick up immediately and repeat over and over. When get bigger (6/8 months ish) don't hold til stopped crying as can take too long. Pick up and if don't stop pretty quick or are arching their backs then put down, but pick up again straight away. Essentially is a form of CC but they are never left to cry it out, they do not cry without you there, don't feel abandoned and I have found are mostly just cross that you are not cuddling them off to sleep. Key is putting them down before they are asleep, but are nice and calm and ready for it.

So glad, pick up put down working. I think key thing is consistency so if they know you will keep putting them down again, message might get through. Not sure about mornings though, I think they might know there is a difference but it could be confusing.

Sorry not had time to read all messages so if someone mentioned gradual withdrawal already sorry to repeat. This method really worked for us although it took a long, long time. My Lo did have some health issues though. We also got the help of a Sleep Lady in Edinburgh who guided us through as our LO's sleep was so bad.

Hope your problems now sorted but if not and you want some tips on gradual withdrawal let me know.

Thanks for your help. My DD is 18 months and has slept through beautifully since 9 weeks but is going through a clingy phase I guess separation anxiety.

I don't know anything about gradual withdrawal!!

Would the same advise apply to a 18mo old EllieG??

I am now doing a form of PU/PD with a 15kg 22 mth old, and will have fantastic abs at the end of it all if the pain in my stomach muscles is anything to go by! Last night he did not ask to nurse, and very happily went to sleep in his own bed with no crying at all, but it took nearly an hour and a half! Am hoping for it to go quicker tonight. However, first time he woke, he nursed and didn't utter a squeak when pulled off and popped back into bed, just rolled over and went to sleep. Next time he woke he was brought in with me and same thing. He still woke as often in the night, though. It just reinforces my belief that the night waking is not related in any way to self-settling, nursing to sleep, etc.

Ches, not sure how you come to conclusion its not related to self settling or waking in night, cos even if you're only feeding sporadically, still confuses them! We fed in night and rocked to sleep and when we gradually got rid of both these things, over time, night waking reduced. However, didn't go away completely cos if you're not completely consistent it can still be confusing for them. Obviously other factors can affect it too, like illness, separation anxiety, etc and you have to go with this to an extent. But after having a horrific sleep problem with DD2, I am a firm believer in teaching them to go to sleep by themself when ready, giving up night feeding when they no longer need it, eg. definately after a year or so!!!!! Then being as consistent as you can. The sleep lady we spoke to said she thought pick up put down could be confusing for older babies and toddlers, hence why gradual withdrawal, which as I say is just staying with them, touching etc but trying not to pick up. Then getting a little bit further from cot every 3 or 4 nights or so. Hence they know you are still there but they learn they won't be picked up or fed!!!!! If you can't cope with not picking up straight away, then hold them for first bit and then move on to holding them in cot or whatever. there is an excellent book by Millpond Sleep Clinic which gives great information on this.

Sorry if sound a bit evangelical but I can't stress enough how much difference this made to our lives!!!!!!

Good luck all, I know how hellish it can be!!

I'm really not sure what to do. DD2 doesn't have night feeds or get picked up and always goes to sleep on her own (slept 12 hours from 9 weeks as did DD1). Would the PU/PD work for her?

I really feel she is just wanting our attention and wants us to come running.

It might do - my DD is just like this. Can settle on her own to go to sleep and does not feed at night, but just wants us in the night for reassurance. I have been a bit sporadic on the PUPD so has not been as good as usual (her routine was a bit crap over xmas) but am trying to do now and I think I am winning! Key thing is that they don't feel abandoned, I think what is up with mine is a bit of separation anxiety, and whilst I want her to be calm and reassured, I don't want to get her into a pattern of thinking she needs us every night.

Last couple of nights have been a bit better though, so maybe [Ellie crosses fingers and toes and tries not to get her hopes up too much]

Hi all - don't mind the hijack in the slightest!

Pevie - I'd be interested to hear about gradual withdrawal...

DD seems to be doing well with PU/PD although bedtime still takes 30-45 minutes. It's just I'm beginning to wonder if my presence in the room draws the whole process out somewhat, and if some kind of gradual withrawal might help. She doesn't really need me there, but screams like a banshee if I try and leave before she's asleep.

But hey, we're only getting at worst it seems one short waking a night, and then a quick replacement of dummy and a rub of the back and she's down. Waking at only about 6.30. As it's been holiday time then dragging her into bed for a further hoour and half's doze. But that'll be knocked on the head tomorrow.

When I say I'm doing PU/PD I'm not actually doing much picking up. DD has stopped crying really, just sporadically for a few minutes before she finally drops off, but I think that's part of her self-soothing, she's not really distressed or seeming to require any comfort from me.

I'm more just laying her down again when she pops up, and retrieving the dummy from wherever she's chucked it.

All in all it's very positive - and I don't think I could have hacked CC, so I'm quite relieved.

However steeling myself for a regressin as she starts nursery tomorrow...

Ches, my understanding is that for PU/PD to really crack night wakings it has to be employed at every bedtime (inc. naps when taken at home in cot) and at every waking during the night...and that comsistency is key.

Is your DS hungry at these night feeds? Do you think he needs them? If you don't think so then maybe try toughing it out and doing PU/PD at these night wakings too?

We had a couple of horror 2 hour night waking PU/PD sessions at the beginning, but the number dropped almost immmediately, and now it only takes a few minutes to help her settle, and, like I say she's gone a few nights without waking at all.

But anyway, I don't know your DS, my DD was never much interested in milk feeds and was all too happy not to be pestered to feed in the night from about 3 months - I think she just thought - 'whey hey I can get, like 8 hours here without Mummy trying to shove her boob in my mouth...' so night feeding was never a problem, and hence I know nowt about it...

db
xx