Please help. I cannot do this anymore. I am afraid I might snap if things do not get easier.

[ElfOnTheTopShelf]

I have posted before about my daughter. She is three in October.
She was b/fed until 18 months so used to fall asleep on the breast until then. Until she was two, we used to lie on my bed to get her to sleep. For the last nine months we have been trying to get her to sleep in her own room. Its a fecking nightmare.
She refuses to sleep without somebody asleep in the room with her. Typically me - she doesn't want anybody but me at night time.
I have to sit next to her, sometimes she'll beg me to hold her hand, put my hand on her tummy, let her rest on my hand etc to go to sleep.
We have tried controlled crying, but she makes herself sick, every night we tried she screamed so much that she made herself sick, after about six nights, I've ran out of bedding and patience.
If I leave the room, she screams and becomes hysterical. And as time is going on, I too am getting hysterical. I cannot do this anymore. I know I am going to end up snapping and I do not want to hurt her. I just want her to go to sleep.
We have tried to get her more involved in her room - we got her to pick out new things for her "special room" including bedding for her bed, we've let her make it her space, but she just wont go to sleep. It can take at least an hour of me sitting next to her to go to sleep.
Please help. Do I just gate her in her bedroom, grit my teeth and stand in the kitchen?
I'm struggling, I really am.
I love her so much, but I just want to be able to say "sleep time" and her go to sleep without it turning into a massive battle.

Hi there, FWIW there are NHS sleep clinics, my sister used one. Ask/badger/beg your GP to refer you.

My other sister opted for a private sleep clinic - millpond - she said they were great, obviously more money but less waiting time.

What about a reward system?

Am going to go to the HV's (they have a drop in clinic every Thurs) next so will discuss it then. Not sure how useful they will be!

It isn't helping that I am run down anyway, been in hospital twice since Christmas, and what with working full time, I've gotten a little run down, which I know I need to address, along side with making the sleep issue easier.

I feel for you, elf. DD(nearly 4) is going through a difficult time settling herself at the moment and, like you, I find it very stressful.

loads of good sense talked on this thread - I agree that maybe you should just give in to giving her what she wants, ie for you to lie down with her. I've only recently stopped doing this with dd, she slept in my bed until a few months ago.

Also I would try to the CM to cut out the naps. If dd has so much as half an hour these days she is really difficult to put to bed. Letting her have a nap during the day is making the CM's job easier, but yours much harder IMO

sending you good sleep vibes, try to give yourself a break hun.

Elf - I agree with Cargirl.
I tend towards the 'kind but firm' school of parenting.
She's giving you a bit of a run around imo.

"I wouldn't mind reading in her room (or studying) but she doesn't "let" me, in the sense that she starts wanting my hand, then the other one somewhere else, then she wants me to lay with her, then she wants to hold my ear until she falls asleep.
If I were just sitting reading in her room, I would be okay, but its not. If I lay on the floor, facing her and reading, she's hysterical. "Sit.Down.Next.To.Me.Mummy"

You are the grown up and you have to lay down the law and be consistent. You have to let her know you are in charge in the sense that you are looking after her and know what to do. Every time you give in to her and let her hold your ear, or whatever, you are effectively saying ' Yes, you are right to be afraid.'
Decide on a routine and stick to it. Don't make it too drawn out. Aim at maybe 15 mins max of being in her room or coming in and out to reassure her and tuck her in and then limit yourself to popping your head round the door and saying 'Time to sleep. Mummy's going to have her supper now'. Or whatever. Even if she's screaming. Eventually she'll realise:

1. You mean it.
2. You haven't gone away.

Good luck.

Elf,
I feel so bad for you because I know what it's like to work full-time on no sleep. MY DD is 14 months and has never slept and it is awful. I wish I had something constructive to say but I have no advice - just lots of sympathy.
Last night DP and I had the most blazing row at 2am over the never-ending sleep probelm. I too feel like I can't go on anymore. Like you, my daughter is my world and I adore her but I need to sleep.
Sorry to be of no use at all but I do feel for you. It is not easy.

Elf- I went through a phase of this with d, now 4. I have always stayed in the room with her (we co-sleep anyway) until she falls to sleep, we went through the same as you, in that it was taking hours, and I couldn't move, or do anything- in fact I had to lie down in the dark with her and sneak away trying to not wake her up....
Anyway, we dropped totally the nap when she was just over 2. I noticed that if she napped even for 15 minutes in the car, it kept her awake till 10pm. We had a few whiny over tired days but then she was fine. I now sit on the bed, comfy, reading my book while she drops off. I made it clear to her (she was 3-ish so it was easier to make her understand) that either mummy stayed and read, or mummy didn't stay. Now, she asks to go to bed, we have a story, then mummy reads her book, and d is asleep within 10 minutes.
Good luck and hope things get better for you soon....

Oh, and I told my Mum (who has her when I'm at work) that if she let her sleep during the day (because of course it's easier for the babysitter to have them sleep!) she had to come and do the night time routine!

the same with my dd. she is 2.8 and if she sleeps in the day, even for just half an hour, she is bouncing off the walls will midnight. now she will go to bed half 7- 8 ish and i have to lay with her til she is asleep. i dont know how long this will last for, but she does seem to be getting better at staying in her bed in the night. i dont know if it is something to do with her feeling more secure?
she used to get up in the night at 3 am and come into our room wanting to come into our bed.sometimes i let her in but mostly took her back to her bed and laid with her again till she went to sleep.
this started taking longer and longer and i was gettin fairly peed off with it.
then about a weeks ago, she slept all night and has done so since.
i dont know why she had got out of the habit of waking, but she does seem to be growing out of the bad times.

i never let her sleep in the daytime now, to an extent that i wont go anywhere far away in the car cause she will sleep and i will be up all night.

I take my portable cattle prod and reach over the backseat with it to make sure.....

he he sounds like a plan

oh god, this brings back memories. We had this for a whole year with DD1 (from aged 2 to 3). She had always fallen asleep really easily by herself though. However we also went through the whole thing of staying until she fell asleep, hand on back, no, hand on tummy, no, let me hold your hand, sing me a song, read me a book, etc. At the beginning it would take 5-10 minutes for her to fall asleep but gradually it was taking more like 2 hours and the minute she woke up just slightly and we weren't there she would freak out, so this started happening throughout the night too. It was a real nightmare for all of us. We bought the 'no cry sleep solution' book and started trying the different methods. None seemed to work, but with hindsight I think that's because we were trying so many different things that she never knew what was going to happen at bedtime - staying in her room next to her, or in a chair reading a book to ourselves, or just outside the door. Eventually we decided there was no right method so we just chose one and stuck to it: staying in the room for two minutes, then door open, light on outside and we'd reply if she called us just say 'night, night' over and over again but we didn't say anything else and we didn't go back upstairs. Within 3 or 4 weeks it started improving a lot and the problem was finally gone completely when we moved her sister (7 months old at the time) in with her. I remember reading in Penelope Leach's book that this often works but if there isn't a sibling available sometimes it works with a fish or some other animal.

I really feel for you. No real answers here other than suddenly you'll think back of this period and hopefully not even believe how awful it was. For us, luckily, it's just a distant memory now.

hey elf so sorry for what you are going through. Make sure if you can that you can rest sometime because obviously if you're tired and stressed (and I can see why!)they your little dd is going to pick up on this.
My lo has a dolly whom she brings to bed sometimes. She has a comfort blanket which she holds and chews also. She is 2 and drove me crazy for a bit until I realised that I am the centre of her world, and that there's times I would like my mum to be with me when I go off to sleep! A hug and the door left open and she is fine.
Go with what works for you, if you want to do the controlled crying thing (we did) then you need dp's support because it's so upsetting for everyone particularly Mum.
Think positive and mind yourself first of all. This too will pass. Good luck

No new adivce it all sounds great on here but you could try a referral to CAMHS asking for the clinical psychology 0-5 service. Lots of kids have sleep problems related to separation anxiety.

You can do this via your GP. A decent psycholgist will give you one approach you can use consistently and then evaluate. Having professional input and therefore a certain amount of reassurance that you are "doing something" may help decrease your anxiety a bit too which in turn will help things.

There are NHS services out there for this kind of thing you just have to push for them. HV might not be all that helpful TBH.

Best of luck and hugs to you xx

My DD was somewhat similar to this and was adamant that only mummy could put her down at night...we went round in circles until I decided I needed a break and DH was more than willing to step in. It took some time until she accepted this and requires total commitment as she did the obvious 'I want my mummy WAAAAAAA!' which was hard to listen to. Stick to the routine that gets her to sleep without too much fuss until she gets used to DH and then start changing it to suit you. In the long term I would definately second the use of music/lights etc- the light and sound things for babis that you strap onto cots are perfect as toddlers can operate them themselves and are still impressed by the pictures on the ceiling aspect...music is good because they can't hear you as you creep out of the room. I think by the sounds of it, you need rest and in many ways, it's good for your daughter to have that special time with her daddy- I know it's improved my DD's and DH's relationship hugely. He often comes downstairs after putting her to sleep all dewy eyed.

As she can go to sleep at the childminders I don't think it can purely be an inability to sleep without you. I do think there must be a bit of a subconscious "how much can I control?" issue going on here too. Which is what kids do at this age - they explore "what happens if...?".

And sleep is such an emotive and difficult area that it is hard to look at it rationally. There are all sorts of things we say "no" to our children about and put up with the crying and screaming because we know we are making the right decision but when it comes to sleep we are overcome with guilt.

My dd behaves in a similar way to yours from time to time. (She is 3.3 now) I find it helps to set SOME boundaries - ie "I will stay in the room lying down but not sitting on the bed - you choose".

I certainly don't want to leave my 3yr old to cry herself to sleep in distress but I am the adult and she needs to know that I am ultimately in control - for her own peace of mind too. I don't think it makes me a bad parent to set some boundaries as to what is OK and what just can't happen.

Maybe you could accept that you can't expect CC to work but that you could be firmer using a gradual withdrawal method? Ie ear holding not ok!

I also was having bigger and bigger problems until I dropped the afternoon nap. DD would be up til 9pm, calling us up to her several times. We dropped the nap and although she can get a bit crabby mid afternoon she does go to sleep so much more easily.

I know it is such a living nightmare and you have all my symapthies but I do agree that she seems to be pushing to see how far she can get with you - though not consciously.

Oh, and whatever you decide, make sure your DD is briefed to within an inch of her life...my DD responds very well to walk-throughs of a major change of routine is upcoming. Try getting her to do the new routine with a dolly/teddy etc, draw pictures, make up a story about her bedtime routine etc. Go to town but keep it very consistent or she'll be confused and more insecure. She will also feed off your uncertainty so you should appear resolute and upbeat at all times, even when she's bawling.

okay, Fri night was quite crappy. Saturday night was easy because we were at a wedding - she had no nap in the day and spent the evening running around / dancing, and she eventually crashed out at about ten. We carried her to the car, took her home and she slept all night in her bed.
She woke up at 9 this morning which is quite late for her, but we're not going to let her have a nap today and see how it goes tonight.

Good Luck! Let us know how it goes.

I thought last night was going well, she was tired about half six, so took her to bed, and she was asleep before eight, no holding hands etc, could lie down and read a book.
Then she got up at 10.
And 11.
And 12...

elf I start saying that I have no answers.
I've posted a similar thread a few months ago. dd1 was probably 2.5 like yours at the time. my dd never slept with us so I don't think this is why you have this problem tbh. I think it's a mixture between wanting to have control/challenging and anxiety.
It started gradually. she was always a great sleeper.
this is what I've learnt: children can sense every nuance of your feelings. so if they sense this is a battle for you and you are stressed they stress too and will make a point of making a big deal out of it. so the idea of letting the matter rest for a while is good imo. i did not think so at the time because i so wanted my evenings back and also, consciously or not, it becomes, dfor both parties, a matter of principles, doesn't it?

it did stop whem dd1 and i went to stay at mum for a few weeks - change of scenery change of behaviour, a bit like at cm where also my dd slept beatifully.

my analisys of situation told me that dd1 was 'jealous' of dh and me and felt shut out as we so made it obvious that we wanted time without her. at my mum although i did tell her i needed a rest (pg at the time) she felt i was still available to her ifswim.

when we came back the first night she was all happy to go to bed when suddenly, i saw it from a twinkle in her eye!, she remembered how she used to behave and tried her old behaviour. i started laughing and told her not to be silly as she had been such a good girl etc and she laughed too and` went to sleep.

i thought that'd be it. no.

somehow after a few months she's now started it again. don't know how or when. i do strongly believe that once it is a habit they pick up they themselves do not know how to break it. dd1 goes for aft nap here in the same bed without a fuss, no story nothing . it is you who must break it for their sake. how exactly i do not know. sorry. i am trying myself. cutting the daytime nap made it worse in our case as she was over tired, evil at 5ish making both super stressed. also, you give a finger and they take the hand so very true so i'd stay in the bedroom next to her but reading etc. also when she starts crying insanely i take her out of her bedroom into a neutral space - i don't want her to associate bed with distress. after a while she rather go to bed than sit alone in the corridor.
if anything else useful comes into my mind will tell.

sorry if not clear but have dd2 in my lap and try to eat at the same time. dd1 having nap.

Hey Elf, we found using a sleep counsellor really helped.

More details here

taliac thanks I might make some use of that too .

Pippi - I forgot that taking her out to a neutral place really helped us too. If she woke up in the middle of the night and started crying and didn't want us to leave the room until she fell asleep again (which could take up to 2 hours), I would take her out to the corridor (mainly so that she wouldn't wake up her sister in the same room) and just sit there with her calmly until she was ready to go back to her bed. The first night she was there for about 40 minutes but very quickly it went down to 10 and then I only had to ask her if she wanted to go and sit in the corridor for her to stop the crying quite quickly and go back to sleep.

exactly vacaloca! all of a sudden the bed seems much more a confortable place instead of a cold and empty corridor, doesn't it. and you can see it in their eyes that they think 'what is the point of this?'

yesterday she kept saying she wasn't tired so I told her that as we were going to bed she couldn;t get out but she could read in bed till she was tired. she 'read' two books and decided once again that sleeping was much a better option.

mind you there's quite a lot of difference in behaviour and understanding between 2.5 and 3 imo.

Argh, last night was terrile. She was awake until 9:15 screaming for the childminder of all people!!
We're off to bed in a min...
Seeing HV next week. Made enquiries at sleep therapy place but £220 so thought I'd try the free routes first!