What to do when child won't actually stay in bed?

[lollydu]

Daughter is 5, backstory is there's suspicion of some sort of neurodiversity, I have a diagnosis of ADHD.

We've had an absolute shocker of a bedtime and it's been slipping to this for the last 6 months. It's so stressful because there's not one sleep training/bedtime technique that will work with her. She's just constantly calling out and it's a cycle of her telling us she can't sleep, things escalating to her getting out of bed constantly. I try to just lead her back to bed and say it's time to sleep but I'm talking it's just constant as soon as I put her back in bed she's out again and I'm basically standing at the top of the stairs for hours just putting her back to bed and she's swinging between laughing and saying she needs an activity to do because she's not tired to crying when my partner goes up and starts taking things away and being the hard disciplinarian. Then cuddles from me and trying to sort things out for her and settle her and the cycle starts again. We tried moshi kids sleep app tonight but that didn't work. Eventually she settled after the final upset from my partner after multiple getting out of bed and coming to the stairs and cuddle from me, but I just don't want it to be like this? I hate the good cop bad cop routine. I want to help her settle but nothing works, literally nothing! I'm hoping it's partly because of the Xmas holidays and things will settle when she's back at school and routine back to normal. Part of me thinks maybe she's genuinely just not tired and maybe we need to try putting her to bed at 9ish but since these problems have been happening her bedtimes slipped later and so has wake time so we are having to wake her for school still tired. I can't take the chance that we put her to bed at 9 and she still takes 3 hours to settle!

I just don't know what to do, what do you do when sleep training techniques like check ins etc don't work? I even said I would stay with her until she was asleep in desperation but she's just so stimulated she just talks and talks at me, it's the actual settling down for sleep she's so resistant to.

What happens if you say "ok, you don't have to sleep, you have to stay in your room and play quietly/read a book/do a jigsaw and go to sleep when you're ready"?

I'm not saying that at 6 she should completely control her own bedtime - obviously if you tried this and she was up until really late it's a no-go.
But I'm just wondering if it's something that you've tried, and whether she might find it easier?

How much outdoor exercise is she getting? Can you increase this. My dd gets like you describe if she hasn't had enough exercise. She's always hated sleep, dropped her nap around 18 months and bedtime has always been quite tough.

Properly running around in the fresh air is the best way to get her tired enough for bed.

We have tried, but she just keeps calling out, saying this is wrong and that is wrong and it's not working. I am going to try letting her read some books quietly tomorrow. It's just calming her down for bedtime that seems impossible. I read her a chapter book ( we're reading the faraway tree at the moment) and she's just all over the bed doing somersaults while I'm reading and it's even a struggle to just get her in the bed and snuggled under the covers. She's just all over the place. I bought a kids gratitude diary that we filled in tonight before bed as I thought it was a nice activity to do because she's often very anxious before bed so I thought good opportunity to get her worries out and get her focussing on positive things. Magnesium sleep butter also didn't work. At wits end and think I will call the doctor if going back
To school doesn't improve things.

I wouldn't say you have to sleep...that's a lot of pressure imo.

I'd say you don't have to sleep but you do have to rest. I'd leave a low lamp on and give her some books/sticker book and say she is allowed to sit in bed and look at some books or do her sticker book quietly.

Ps as a side note, don't do good cop, bad cop. My husband does this (I'm bad cop) and I feel so so undermined, it breeds real resentment.

Agree on a strategy together in advance and stick to it. Don't let him set a rule, then dd cries about it, and then you go a cuddle her and undermine the rule. It sucks. I hate being undermined.

Sorry just saw you've been trying that

It's pretty cold and dark at the moment but would a walk round the block before bedtime help tire her out a bit?

My son has low sleep needs & needs to be run ragged to tire him out. I’ve also noticed that bedtime goes quicker & easier on the days where we’ve had more connection - so played a lot together, had more cuddles throughout the day and not just at bedtime.

I also do a mini massage when putting his eczema cream on & on rough nights, I rub/apply pressure to different parts of his body in sequence while he’s lying in bed in the dark. It seems to calm or relax his muscles and stops him feeling as restless.

DD1 was like this. I agree with the suggestion of getting her really physically tired - walk everywhere during the day, visit to the swings, play football in the garden. If she was really physically tired, she would sleep, if she wasn’t, we made life really boring - she could read, but had to stay in bed, we didn’t engage in conversation. If she got up we took her back to bed without speaking to her - repeatedly if necessary. We also told her we were going to bed - turned all the lights off, and made the house silent.

Have you tried a good sensory diet before bed time. Lots of big movements with physical input and then calmer more textile activity? My DC are asd and both need a different sensory input to wind down to be able to sleep. One is more tactile and needs stimulation from different materials, the other needs more physical movement and large motions to feel relaxed.

We did do a walk round the block right before bed today thinking it might help.

I'm hoping being back at school will mean she's more tired, it has got so bad over Christmas.

With the good cop bad cop thing, it's frustrating because I thought we had agreed on a strategy yesterday (not to get angry at her) and he just descends into shouting and getting cross at her and taking all her toys and possessions away as punishment for not staying in bed which just makes things worse, I won't join in on that strategy and she's heartbroken and needs reassurance and so I go in and comfort her.

My friend who is a clinical psychologist has sent me some links about OT sensory activities to do before bed time which I think this is about what you mention - big movements etc which I think would work for her and is something she would benefit from so I will look more into this xx

Yes agreed - we will try tomorrow saying she does not have to sleep but needs to relax her body and have quiet time with a book or something? We didn't do the book thin tonight because we tried the app that didn't work, I want to look at sleep hypnosis on YouTube but don't want the iPad in the room as she will just choose a different video

My DD did this at a much younger age, not ND although her DB , father and many others ASD. So may be something. Anyhow at about 2/3/4 she kept getting up. I /her Dad gave nothing back, my mum ( expert of course! ) advised this. She experienced the same when my DD stayed. Sounds daft but I got to point of simply ignoring, and didn’t respond. If she came into living room I just ignored it ( my mum let her sit beside her watching tv ), in bedroom I ignored too. Obviously I was checking her out but let her get on with it without engaging. She stopped it at some point, not ever a rest sleeper but managed to entertain herself.

What time is her bedtime now?What does her routine look before bedtime? How long before bedtime do screens go off? Does she do something calming before bedtime? Has she got something she can be doing whilst you read to her that’s more calming than somersaults? A fidget toy or colouring for example? I have adhd and struggle to be listening if I’m not doing something else at the same time with my hands.

A weighted blanket or teddy or Lycra sheet might also help her feel more grounded and secure in bed.

I also agree with those saying to have some quiet activities that she’s allowed to do quietly in her room with a low light and maybe a quiet story on a Yoto/ Tonie box or some calming music before she actually has to go to sleep, I would work on trying to stop her coming to you constantly more than working on getting her to actually go to sleep.

My DD is similar. Bedtimes used to be hell and I used to have to lie beside her for an hour at least before she would sleep.

She is very sensory seeking so
what is working now is a fluffy duvet cover she got for Christmas. She absolutely loves how it feels so I’ve started wrapping her up in it tightly each night at bedtime. It stops her from fidgeting and she sleeps much quicker.

You could also try a weighted blanket if you haven’t already. If you suspect ADHD and if she is jumping around her bed at night get her a small indoor trampoline if you can to satisfy this need. My DD also likes to spin so she can do this in my office chair and she has a bean bag that she also squashes herself into as well. I think she needs to have these things for sensory input each day to help regulate her and it helps with behaviour including bedtime. Apologies if you already know and have these kind of things

DD1 was like this. She never slept, even as a newborn she'd be awake all the time and just napping at night. It was truly dreadful. She learned to read by herself at about three (her older brother was learning and she picked it up alongside him) and I just used to leave her in her room with the lamp on and a pile of books. She has ADHD and high functioning autism, and would read and read and read at night, but never seemed to have trouble getting up in the mornings. For her, books became better than real life (she's now an author), and it was the only thing that worked for her, just being allowed to read until she fell asleep by herself.

Lots of running around in the afternoon
Big stretch session before bed time
Read together, say a calm good night, and then she can read to herself or play quietly with stuffies in her to till she aleep

My son has adhd and he would be the same when it comes to bed time. It's unfortunately not as easy as doing sleep training there.

What works for us is to do some sort of meditation:
After our bedtime routine (getting ready, book) I tell him the story about how the little cells in his body puts his body to sleep and basically say 'goodnight or time to relax' to all his body parts from the head to the feet and he is meant to follow it in his mind.

I make him do some breathing when we get to the chest and say thank you for what ever he has achieved that day (even just jumping all day). Sounds pretty silly and the story I make up isn't that great, but it works a treat every time and he always asks for it now.

Unfortunately none of the meditation or good night story apps worked either, it was always me or his father telling the story. also helps giving his head a stroke when talking about it or holding his arm, hand or shoulder, but that depends on whether they like the contact.

I sympathise. It sounds really exhausting.
One thing that leaps out as I read your posts is that it sounds like you are trying lots of things, but maybe each only for a night or two then deciding that they don’t work. With sleep a big part of it is the habit/ routine of going to bed then sleep. It might be worth deciding on a strategy and giving it at least a week, ideally two before deciding if you think it is going to help. I realise this probably sounds too slow. But jumping from strategy to strategy is possibly quite stimulating in itself.

Would she lay and listen to an audio book?
We have a yoto player for DD who is 5 and she picks a card to listen to every night in bed and almost always falls asleep while listening to it.

I used to get in bed with mine, turn out the lights and go to sleep, but I didn't have a partner who'd get moody if I abandoned him.

Good cop, bad cop ain't going to work. Punishing a child for being unable to sleep will only induce more anxiety around sleep. A solid routine, low pressure and a way that works to unwind independently is what's needed. My DC don't sleep well, or at all some nights. But I'm never going to punish them for things they can't control.

We have rules. We have routine. They have access to lights, books, low stimulation toys and have free reign so as they please in their bedroom - quietly. Doesn't always work, sometimes I have to bring one down and complete the cycle and try again. Pressure at school or from peers or events can cause issues. Years a go I just learnt to lean into the skid. I can nap standing up these days 😅

I would try reframing bedtime as rest time, not sleep time. Agree the things that she is allowed to do in her room at rest time and make a visual list (reading, colouring, sensory toys, listen to stories etc.). Then write down the ‘rest time instructions’: “At rest time you go to your room and get into bed. Mummy will read one story and then say good night. At rest time you can …..”
Talk though the instructions with her several times during the day, and then stick them to her door. Every time she gets up take her back to her room and read through the instructions - “It is rest time, at rest time you can…”. Don’t be interesting, don’t be cross, don’t be anything except a robot that reads the rest time instructions.

You are living my exact life.

I don't know the answers but I sympathise so much