What to do when child won't actually stay in bed?

[lollydu]

Daughter is 5, backstory is there's suspicion of some sort of neurodiversity, I have a diagnosis of ADHD.

We've had an absolute shocker of a bedtime and it's been slipping to this for the last 6 months. It's so stressful because there's not one sleep training/bedtime technique that will work with her. She's just constantly calling out and it's a cycle of her telling us she can't sleep, things escalating to her getting out of bed constantly. I try to just lead her back to bed and say it's time to sleep but I'm talking it's just constant as soon as I put her back in bed she's out again and I'm basically standing at the top of the stairs for hours just putting her back to bed and she's swinging between laughing and saying she needs an activity to do because she's not tired to crying when my partner goes up and starts taking things away and being the hard disciplinarian. Then cuddles from me and trying to sort things out for her and settle her and the cycle starts again. We tried moshi kids sleep app tonight but that didn't work. Eventually she settled after the final upset from my partner after multiple getting out of bed and coming to the stairs and cuddle from me, but I just don't want it to be like this? I hate the good cop bad cop routine. I want to help her settle but nothing works, literally nothing! I'm hoping it's partly because of the Xmas holidays and things will settle when she's back at school and routine back to normal. Part of me thinks maybe she's genuinely just not tired and maybe we need to try putting her to bed at 9ish but since these problems have been happening her bedtimes slipped later and so has wake time so we are having to wake her for school still tired. I can't take the chance that we put her to bed at 9 and she still takes 3 hours to settle!

I just don't know what to do, what do you do when sleep training techniques like check ins etc don't work? I even said I would stay with her until she was asleep in desperation but she's just so stimulated she just talks and talks at me, it's the actual settling down for sleep she's so resistant to.

@Oioisavaloy27 to be fair over Christmas she has had less physical outdoors time due to the weather being awful but I do try to keep her engaged with activities when we're home (she won't have it any other way as she's constantly bored so I have to keep finding things to do), we have done crafting today and I'm hoping we can get out for a walk but it's pouring here today. Swimming actually sounds like a good shout as the leisure centre only 2 min walk away so I will look at the time table, thank you to whoever suggested that!

That is a brilliant idea re: swimming.

Yotos are better for older kids: they have more grown-up stories, and many more options as well (1200 compared to 200 for the Toniebox).

It might be an idea to try and get her out more and running around more, put on a raincoat and some wellies and you might find you have less problems. Try and get her signed up with some clubs too like dancing, guides ect.

I yes to get in bed with my one like this, but refused conversation. I might read until he slept, or read my phone. He always fell asleep eventually then I returned downstairs. A good chunk of the evening, sometimes, though.

This is exactly what I would recommend. I have to sit with my youngest and I tell her if she lies quietly I’ll sit with her and stroke her if she needs me to. If she’s up and down and chatting I’m going to sit outside the room. It works for us. She always goes quiet. I have to remind her a few times but then she settles.
I would also contact the school nurse team and ask to go on a sleep course. Ask your husband to let you deal with it from now on. He’s making things worse!!

Parent of two diagnosed neurodivergent children here. My eldest struggled with sleep, but generally could chill in bed by herself without disturbing anyone else.

The youngest was entirely different - if she was awake, everyone was awake. The only thing that worked eventually after trying everything recommended on this thread was a prescription for melatonin. It saved us as a family. It was getting dangerous for us to work, particularly DH in his safety critical role. Turns out that lots of autistic kids don’t produce enough melatonin naturally. We’ve never looked back!

Also, your instincts about the shouting and authoritarian approach are right - these methods do not work with neurodivergent children, they simply escalate their anxiety and make the situation ten times worse.

That's why I always use gradual withdrawal they are not reliant on your body heat either so less likely to wake up realising your gone.

Just an update from me - another not great night yesterday and today seems to be going the same way.

Last night we kept things calm, no stress, let her take some colouring books up with her and she was colouring until 10pm before we managed to settle her. She can't just colour quietly on her own either, she's calling out constantly mum I need you to cut this one out and I've drawn a dummy and I want you to cut it out so I can put it on this princess, it's like even when she's not playing with dolls she's turning everything into dolls.

So it was first day back at school today and we had to wake her at 7 and she was exhausted. Horrible morning. School was ok but she was tired when she got home but then she's suddenly wired as soon as 7pm rolls around. We had another meltdown as she didn't want to do colouring unless we let her have scissors in bed so she could cut her own dolls out, we said no so maybe colouring wasn't the right thing maybe books but she was fixed on cutting in bed and didn't want anything else. Partner got cross but I defused it a bit so it didn't get too out of hand but she did start getting physically violent when we wouldn't budge with the scissors in bed. So lots of up and down the stairs, I put lots of washing away which used to work (I think she was happy hearing me up and down the stairs and being right near her door faffing around) but it didn't work today. Tried rubbing her back, but she won't even try and settle she's just getting up and down and talking to me. So now she's currently up in her room playing with fidget spinners and her "calm" box which has lots of sensory bits and bobs in there. Dug our weighted blanket out and tucked her in like a burrito which just made her laugh. At least she's quiet and in bed now, just worried she's not getting enough sleep and school will start to suffer.

I guess there are no miracles where this is concerned and it will either get better with consistency or I will seriously need to consider a GP appointment if her schooling starts to suffer. Ideally I want to intervene before that's the case as this as been on a gradual slide for at least the last 6 months to a year.

My son was like this for a time when he was about 4. We did the usual bedtime routine of bath, warm drink, several stories, sit next to the bed for a while in silence routine, he kept getting up. We put him back to bed with no talking or engagement but he kept getting up.
I got to the end of my tether with it so I resorted to the advice in a popular child rearing book at that time( 30 years ago) which was called Toddler Taming. The author advised that if a child repeatedly left their room you put them back in then tie the outside door handle to another door handle in such a way that the child can open the door slightly and see out but can't get out. Tell them what you're doing and why. If they cried and screamed you go up, check on them then walk away, repeat if they carry on. Worked like a dream, the first day he cried and I went up a couple of times, he then went to bed and sleep. The next night he stayed in bed and went to sleep, so I only tied the door for one night. So could be worth a try.
For those( bound to be some) that think that's barbaric, he grew up to be a normal well-balanced highly successful, clever man who has a lovely wife and many good friends and we are very close. He cant remember that time at all and it clearly did no harm whatsoever.

Have you considered putting her to bed before 7pm?

The bedtime routine you have is really cluttered and I wonder if the struggle with consistency and changing things up is more about your ADHD than her sleep.

Have your partner put her to bed using the same simple routine for at least a week, dinner, warm bath and bed. Then any further interaction should just be met with the same phrase, It's quiet time now in a quiet calm voice.

My son goes in and out of tricky sleeping and has a few ADHD traits. One thing I found is there’s definitely a sweet spot for easy sleep. He needs to be in bed and on board with sleeping about half 8. Before half 8 and he not only won’t sleep but will be awake for hours. After 9 and he will be awake for ages with the added fun of saying he feels sick and crying.

One thing I find works is when I put him to bed I say I’ll check on him in 5 minutes which I do and then I do the same at intervals until he sleeps no matter how long it takes. Sometimes we each have a teddy to look after and when I go in to check on him we swap teddies. It may still take a while for sleep to come but at least he’s in his bed and not anxious.

Listening to audible, colouring or looking at books would all be too stimulating and no way would they help him sleep. If he’s really upset I lie in bed with him but I try to avoid that because he rarely falls asleep with me there.

Good luck, crap sleep is a killer. At least she’s sleeping in the morning, i’d be tempted to let her have a few long lies to reset and prevent over tiredness. My son still wakes at 6am no matter how late he falls asleep .

I think it's unwise to be available for any kind of play help after bedtime. No cutting out, nothing.

"Read or colour in, that's fine dd, but it's bedtime now so I'm not running up and down. I get too tired."

I think that's far too much going on for an evening routine. Colouring, cutting and sticking, chatting about princesses, fidget spinners, "sensory bits and bobs"...it's much too stimulating. There should be no sensory anything if you're trying to get her to sleep, quite the reverse.

What if you sit next to her, she cuddles your elbow, and you read books to her until she falls asleep? It's a classic method for a reason. Sometimes I've literally had to read six or more books, gradually slower and quieter, until dd falls asleep. Usually only three. But it always works. You start with an exciting book to get her attention then you progress to boring ones till she's asleep

I have a 4yr old who has never slept. He'll be awake until about midnight at the earliest.
We've been referred to a children's sleep clinic as we've tried everything else so far. It's been suggested we'll have to try mediation now.

You are giving her stimulating things while she is in bed.

That would be my approach too.

Cristianne kerr does some really lovely bedtime meditations for kids. On audible. You could try something like that?

Stop playing with her till 10pm! Don’t engage with endless requests.

She’s old enough to lie quietly and read or audio stories.

She won’t like losing your services and all-evening exclusive attention - persevere.

Watch super nanny 911
She advises that you don't speak to her , just keep putting her back in bed.

DD can be a bit like this. She has a magnesium gummy about 30 mins before bed which I think helps and a kids Alexa for an audio book after we’ve read together and she plays/colours whilst listening to it. If she’s really struggling she comes downstairs for milk and a cuddle on the sofa.

She’s older now at nearly 9 but we have had to put boundaries in place about her staying in her room after a certain time, no shouting out etc with rewards associated (sticker chart when younger with a prize). Didn’t ever punish her or take things away though- just reassurance and positive reinforcement.

we’ve done the journaling too. Not a gratitude one but a series for kids with anxiety (Don’t worry, be happy is one, you’re a star is another). DD is neurodivergent too and I think it helps her to get it all out of her system.

dd needs lots of activity in the day but a quieter evening from 6.30ish to start to wind down and a bath/shower always helps her. She’s often anxious about not being able to sleep so letting her potter in her room and have her audio book helps her feel less panicked. Reassurance too that it doesn’t matter and she’ll sleep in the end- just to relax and enjoy the quiet time.

good luck- I know it’s stressful.

I always had horrendous sleep as a child and was diagnosed with adhd as an adult. Eventually my parents used to let me watch a movie to fall asleep and to this day I still need noise to fall asleep , it's quite common with adhd to need stimulation to relax . If you don't want tv would you get her a yoto or toni player so she can listen to stories while she lies in bed

More exercise worked wonders for us but it meant quite a lot of exercise. Walking to school and back every day (2miles in total) running several times a week. School sports lessons plus active clubs. A lot of walking, cycling and park visits plus swimming and the running during holidays and weekends.

Yeah I understand colouring is too stimulating now but it was meant to be a quiet activity that my daughter turned into something overstimulating. Another thing I've tried and just doesn't work so abandoned on night 1! Fidget spinners and calm box were last ditch attempts to keep her in bed. But eventually it did work, she has like an LED drawing pad that she drew a picture on and about 9pm she said her eyes were getting tired and settled and was asleep by about 9:20 so it's an improvement on the night before but the route to get there was much the same still a stress.

I don't even know what to try next so just going to try and keep really simple, my partner doing bedtime tonight so hopefully he can cope and doesn't get cross with her. In the past she has always been better for him at bedtime and it's me she takes the mick with so maybe with me out of the way she might do better.

And yes whoever said it might be my ADHD causing probs as well definitely has a point, ADHD parent trying to parent most likely ADHD child it's not easy lol