Toddler and 11 month old never sleep through the night. End of my tether please help me!

[HussaAZH]

Firstly I’d like to say sorry for this long message
HI am getting so desperate for a good night sleep I was considering a sleep coach but was advised the mumsnetters could potentially help me.
So little bit about me, I am a mom of 2.
My eldest is 2.8 years of age, she sleeps in my bedroom. She has her own toddler bed next to my bed.
Her bedtime is usually at 8pm which isn’t an issue, she falls asleep herself sometimes she wants to hold my hand. Otherwise she’s independently falls asleep, she’s always been good at independently sleeping. HOWEVERRR, she wakes up in the night always. Sometimes it’s 1am for couple hours. But most times on average it’s always around 4/5am for a couple hours and then she will sleep again and wake up around 9/10. It is not a sleep regression, or anything else because she has been doing this for I’d say atleast 6 months. Maybe even longer.last night she was awake from 1:30am to 7:30am. The hows and the whys I have no idea. She is very good at communicating so there was no contributing factors I could pin it down to.
I then have a 11 month old who has been a terrible sleeper for the longest: she had a reflux medical condition. She needs assistance sleeping so she will need to be rocked , tapped etc.
I tend to put her to bed around 9:15-9:45. She will then wake up around 12/1 , she will be asleep soon as I hold her and then I will try put her down - sometimes this process will repeat 4/5 times until she’s down. Theres some nights this will continue every half hour / hour. However she will always wake up 4/5am on average for a feed. It’ll then take her another hour to go back to sleep and I will do the same process of putting her down a few times before she’s finally asleep. She then wakes up around 9:45ish. In this time, my toddler has also woken up for a couple hours. So as you can imagine, I am suffering. Baby will then nap around 1-1:30 for an hour on average/ second nap is usually around 5/5:30 for two hours. But then with the second nap she eventually falls asleep around 10:30-11pm. If she skips the second nap and I put her to sleep at 8pm she sleeps an hour and then wakes up and back to square one.
has anyone got any advice or am I best to get a sleep coach? I am literally on a verge of a mental breakdown, my head is splitting, eyes are sore from the tears I don’t know what to do anymore!

ps. both have milk before bed xx

Reduce naps and get lots of fresh air and exercise.

Low sugar before bed.

My mil does night shifts.

I'm astounded that poor MIL is having to get up in the night & then you allow the babies to sleep in until 9.30. They need to be woken up around 7am.

How can it take all morning to prepare lunch & then from 3.30 onwards to prepare tea? Just do boiled eggs or some pasta which would take 10 mins!

You go to your Mums on a weekend - do you do the same thing there & your Mum has to get up in the night?

Can you afford nursery for the baby? Could you not go back to work & save up for your own place?

I sympathise with this OP but the main things that stand out for me are:

Your 11 month old is napping too long during the day and also too late in the day? Am I correct in saying she does 2 x 2-2.5 hour naps? Mine at 11 months did an hour nap 10-11 then another hour nap 2-3pm and I never let them sleep past 3pm. Having them do a 2 hour nap or even any nap at 5pm is madness and it's no wonder they are up through the night.

They are getting up far too late and their routine is all over the place. I'd work on getting them up at 7-8am. The whinging and tiredness are just something you'll need to push through until a new routine sticks.

Babies and toddlers need plenty fresh air, stimulation and exercise to sleep at night. I'd prioritise this if you're wanting sleep at night. Surely if your at in laws there is someone to share housework with? I'm not seeing why an evening meal takes all afternoon to make. I'd focus on simple meals as well to cut down on time.

You say your partner is self employed but he's still their father and you have two little ones. He really needs to step up to help you sleep as well. I'd definitely recommend a sleep consultant too to help you with the split nights and getting your 11 month to sleep without assistance.

Do you not go to any baby classes or anything with them in the mornings? Do you just stay inside all morning?

I'd work on getting a new routine. Yes it'll be miserable for a few days while they adjust, but this doesn't sound healthy for anyone. You'll just have to push through a few days of overtired kids.

A two-hour nap at 5:30pm is bonkers. No wonder their sleep is all over the place!

Bedtime for baby could be 6:30/7 so you don't even have much longer to keep them awake.

Also I think OP means that her MIL works night shifts not that she's up with the babies during the night!

I do sympathise, I lived with my parents for 2 years and had my child in with me until then but still found it easy to implement a sleep routine with them in the same room.

@Karmacode oh possibly. I hope poor MIL isn't expected to do a night shift with the baby every night. I agree with all of your advice. It's madness to allow them to sleep in until 9.45.

My mil works night shifts. I don’t expect anyone to look after my children: I am the one who is sleep deprived. No one else.
furthermore, my toddler wakes up before 9am most days. It is my baby who wakes up around 9:45 latestttt but that is mainly due to fact she wakes up multiple times during the night.
babys naps for the whole day are 3 hours combined.
i asked for advice and whilst most people have been lovely and offered constructive advice; I would like to say I didn’t come on here to feel more sh*tty by receiving judgemental condescending comments by some.
I will switch up the routine and try get my baby some more fresh air. Thank you for all the advice x

It's the Mumsnet way...well ok it's just the internet actually. People just don't speak to others like they would in real life. I posted about kitchen layouts and got a couple of equally rude and unhelpful comments ("do something better" 😂), but anything baby related is harder to hear because you care so much.

So don't worry about it there's nothing inherently wrong with kids going to bed/getting up at different times to what others in this country do - look around the world and you get all sorts of different sleep patterns. Just give the suggestions ago as your setup isn't working for you, and see what helps! I agree with people who said you have to push past pain - decide a new pattern, do anything you can to force it for a week, then assess if you're getting anywhere.

And good luck, sounds impossibly hard to be woken up so much.

Thank you so much for the kind words of encouragement 🫶🏼 @Haaaaaaan