Toddler and 11 month old never sleep through the night. End of my tether please help me!

[HussaAZH]

Firstly I’d like to say sorry for this long message
HI am getting so desperate for a good night sleep I was considering a sleep coach but was advised the mumsnetters could potentially help me.
So little bit about me, I am a mom of 2.
My eldest is 2.8 years of age, she sleeps in my bedroom. She has her own toddler bed next to my bed.
Her bedtime is usually at 8pm which isn’t an issue, she falls asleep herself sometimes she wants to hold my hand. Otherwise she’s independently falls asleep, she’s always been good at independently sleeping. HOWEVERRR, she wakes up in the night always. Sometimes it’s 1am for couple hours. But most times on average it’s always around 4/5am for a couple hours and then she will sleep again and wake up around 9/10. It is not a sleep regression, or anything else because she has been doing this for I’d say atleast 6 months. Maybe even longer.last night she was awake from 1:30am to 7:30am. The hows and the whys I have no idea. She is very good at communicating so there was no contributing factors I could pin it down to.
I then have a 11 month old who has been a terrible sleeper for the longest: she had a reflux medical condition. She needs assistance sleeping so she will need to be rocked , tapped etc.
I tend to put her to bed around 9:15-9:45. She will then wake up around 12/1 , she will be asleep soon as I hold her and then I will try put her down - sometimes this process will repeat 4/5 times until she’s down. Theres some nights this will continue every half hour / hour. However she will always wake up 4/5am on average for a feed. It’ll then take her another hour to go back to sleep and I will do the same process of putting her down a few times before she’s finally asleep. She then wakes up around 9:45ish. In this time, my toddler has also woken up for a couple hours. So as you can imagine, I am suffering. Baby will then nap around 1-1:30 for an hour on average/ second nap is usually around 5/5:30 for two hours. But then with the second nap she eventually falls asleep around 10:30-11pm. If she skips the second nap and I put her to sleep at 8pm she sleeps an hour and then wakes up and back to square one.
has anyone got any advice or am I best to get a sleep coach? I am literally on a verge of a mental breakdown, my head is splitting, eyes are sore from the tears I don’t know what to do anymore!

ps. both have milk before bed xx

Hi OP,

This sounds reallly really tough - people really underestimate how much a lack of sleep can ruin your life (and I mean this, I have an 11 month year old and remember feeling like this) - I would defo say it's worth getting a sleep coach, just because you have two little ones that you are trying to get to sleep better and you will need methods that account for the fact that you are dealing with two kids at the same time and also sleeping in the same room. Having that extra guidance may really help and can also help get results quicker which I imagine will be beneficial so you can get some sleep.

Sending you lots of love x

Hi,

This sounds so incredibly difficult, sleep deprivation really is so debilitating and it sounds like you are right in the trenches at the moment.

For your eldest: Is she napping in the day? What happens if you get up and start her day with her at 4/5am?

I know it sounds ridiculous early, but my 3 year old sleeps from 7-8pm until about 5-6am with a couple of wakes in night but easily settled with a cuddle. Perhaps what is keeping her up for hours is the sleep she gets in the morning (you don’t mention how much she is sleeping between hours of 4/5-9/10) I know with my eldest that if he sleeps much past 7am he’ll not go to bed that night until 8pm earliest.

With your youngest: You don’t mention where she sleeps, is she is the same room as you also? Bed sharing? Or cot?

I’ve never been very successful with putting my children down so I feed lying down and then roll away when asleep but this might not work with the reflux issues. Is there any way you could settle her to sleep then lie down with her to make the putting down less of a change from being held? Hope that makes sense - I’m just thinking that could help with the never ending attempts at putting down.

You could also try getting the little one up after the 5am feed too which would give plenty of time in the day for 2 naps and a reasonable bedtime. For reference, my 9 month old sleeps 6.30pm-5.30am (still wakes for feeds 2 hourly) and naps 8.30-9.30am then 1.30-2.30pm. This is on an ideal day - which is only about 50% of the time!

This works well for us because I value evenings alone much more than mornings alone. Perhaps it would be helpful to work out whether your children are getting enough sleep overall, and if so, then look at timings and see if you can align things to suit you and your children as best possible.

Your 2.8yr old should be getting 10-13 hours in a 24hour period and your 11 month old should be getting 11-14 hours. Are these amounts very different to what they are actually getting or does it seem about right?

Does your eldest nap?

My DS dropped his nap at just gone 2. He would then go to bed at 8pm and sleep until 7am. Any hint of a nap during the day & he would be bouncing about until 11pm. Maybe your toddler needs less sleep. I wouldn't have let mine sleep that late in the morning otherwise they wouldn't have gone to bed/stayed in bed all night.

Put them to bed later.

Thank you so much for your time to read my message and responding.
so my eldest dropped her nap before she turned 2, it was almost next to impossible to try get her to nap. And if on the very rare occasion she does nap, she won’t sleep until 11:30pm or something like that.
sorry I forgot something extremely important, eldest gets into my bed without fail most nights. This is usually how the wake up begins. Also if she’s woken up at 7am; Iv started her day but then she is relentlessly tired by 4pm having crazy tantrums Iv never witnessed because she is so exhausted. So if she was to start her day at 5am, I fear she would be very tired by late afternoon. On a good night if she sleeps through, she would be getting around 13 hours sleep. If she wakes up at 5am and goes back to sleep; she is having around 11 hours of sleep.

My youngest sleeps in a crib next to me. If she starts her day even at 8am, she is whingy from the moment she gets up till she has her nap. Which is why I have anlways seen it important that she goes back to sleep at her 5am wake up because she will then sleep from 6am till around 9:45 on average. This then help achieves the amount of sleep recommended..

thank you so much again for your responses, it means the most that you have taken time to read all this x

Do you have space for them to sleep elsewhere? We had a sleep consultant and DS sleeping in his own room made a massive difference.

Unfortunately I live with in laws so I don’t - I do think them having their own room will make a difference but it’s just not a possibility at the moment sadly.

Put both of them I. Their own room. Get a gro clock and sticker reward chart for your eldest and drop any naps they are having! Can guarantee that will help
Reassess babies naps I wouldn't have a nearly 1 year old napping past 3pm for a 7,30 bedtime

You just have to go through the pain barrier once they drop their daytime nap. 9.45 is far too late to be getting up. You need to have them awake between 7-8am & wake them up if they're still sleeping. Otherwise you will just continue with the cycle of them going to bed late or being up & about during the night.

If you live with in laws they must be woken up by the little ones? So everyone is affected.

Also you need your partner on board with getting a routine in place. Presumably he works & gets woken up in the night too? I bet everyone is knackered.

If you can afford a sleep coach, definitely get one. We can all give you snippets of advice, but there's a lot going wrong with that sleep routine and you really need someone to come in and overhaul it completely.

With older children who wake in the middle of the night, it can sometimes be food related. I'd keep a food diary and see if you notice anything.

You don't speak about your general routine, but sleep will be better if they eat well, get plenty of fresh air and exercise and don't have access to (too much) screen time. I'd also have a look at how your day works to see if you can find ways to improve their diet, increase fresh air and exercise and reduce screen time.

@NuffSaidSam

If you can afford a sleep coach, definitely get one.

I think they will just tell OP what a sensible routine is & there are loads of books & websites with this info. I just bought a book & followed the advice.

Here is one example (don't know this person but it was first one to pop up on search)

www.jeddahmom.com/sample-routine-for-a-3-year-old-child/

I think fresh air needs to be increased for my little one. I have such bad mom guilt about the fact she doesn’t really go out much because a)I don’t drive b)I hardly have the time c)her nap times clash with the time to go out.
anyway any tips on pushing little one bedtime back to 8pm? Last time I tried that, she treated it as a nap.

I'm sure they will, but when you're on your knees with tiredness it's worth paying someone to come and tell you what to do and then help you do it. If you can afford it, it's money well spent.

Congratulations to you for being so self sufficient though.

@HussaAZH

We used to go out twice a day when they were little. We would aim to be out from 9.30 for a couple of hours & usually it was just something local like library, toddler group, swim. We would head home & aim to eat lunch around 12.30/1pm & then have couple of hours down time. Then head out again around 3/3.30pm to park, scooter ride, supermarket, visit a friend.

Not everyone likes being tied down like that but I found it worked as I knew when to do food/nap/bath etc.

We didn't have much money but I do drive so that helped as we were able to go places like city farm, zoo, local museum. We managed to find lots of cheap or free things to do.

If you are with in laws could they take toddler out, or stay home with baby so you can get out easier? Could they drop you off somewhere?

@NuffSaidSam

Congratulations to you for being so self sufficient though.

I wouldn't have had the money for a sleep consultant! Also I was back at work when mine were 4 months & then 6 months so I was pretty focused on getting sleep sorted.

I pad £120 from a sleep consultant (online but based in south of England). Yes I could have got the information elsewhere but it is all conflicting. Best money I ever spent, but we had 1 and did some cry it out, may be different in your case.

Wake them at 6.30/7ambeeakfast dressed etc out to park / playgroup / library/ feed the ducks
Back home lunch
Nap for little one
Quiet hour for toddler
Back out or garden play go find puddles to jump in or play dough / cutting / sticking / jigsaws / marble runs .
Tea on table for 5pm
6pm upstairs for bath singing books bed for 7/7.30
They don't sound like they are being very stimulated.

My eldest goes nursery everyday from 1-4pm

Brilliant just do the morning activities then tire her out. Get baby down for a nap in the PM whilst you do chores / prep tea get ahead of yourself

My eldest goes nursery everyday from 1-4pm

I would get them up at 7/7.30 and go out for couple of hours 9.30-11.30. Then head home for quick lunch & take to nursery for 1pm.

It will seek like hard work but the payoff will be that they will sleep at night.

When does the baby get out & about?

there’s so much to do at home and I don’t drive so if I’m honest the baby doesn’t get to go out much. I already feel sooo guilty about it

@HussaAZH

Well that's the answer to the question on why they aren't tired at night. Unfortunately you need to get them out and about so they will be exhausted from seeing things & running about. Sorry if this sounds harsh but you are asking for ideas.

If you live with in-laws I can't see why you need to be in the house all the time. So you literally stay home with the baby other than dropping the eldest at nursery? It does sound quite boring for a baby to be honest. Mine would have been cranky and miserable if we stayed home. You at least need to take the baby out while eldest is in nursery - even if it's just a push on the swings or something out in the fresh air. Don't your in-laws get fed up of not having the house to themselves?

What does DH do - is he at work? Do you go out as a family at the weekend? He just be getting disturbed sleep too if you're all in one bedroom.

@mrssunshinexxx posted some ideas - you don't need to spend a lot of money to keep a baby or a toddler busy.

they’re both usually awake by 9:30am, we go down I do breakfast. Sterilise bottles, clean up. I get them ready for the day. My mil does night shifts.
then eldest goes to nursery. Once she’s gone I do a quick tidy up ; get my little one ready for her nap as 1pm is her nap time. During this time I cook clean etc. She shall wakes up just around 3/3:30. By which time I’m preparing them both something to eat. Then they play etc, bath time and bedtime for toddler at 7:30pm.
i go to my moms on the weekend to stay. Husband is self employed so he’s always busy in and out. Tbh it’s not even about the money, it’s more about time and having the transportation means to take them out.
I do know they need fresh air , I have known it for a while and it’s something I struggle with internally guilt wise.