Does cry it out always work?

[Anonnewbie]

4 month old baby, will not sleep and both of our lives are hell. It's either he learns to sleep for at least a couple of hours at a time, don't care where, or I am going to lose it more than I already have.
Everyone keeps talking about the 4 month regression when I ask for help but it's been like this since day one, barring a few spells of him sleeping for a couple of hours at a time. He needs rocking and bouncing to fall asleep and only stays asleep when held. The only apparent change recently is that where he used to stay asleep for a few hours if held, or 1 hour in the crib, he now won't go in the crib at all (wakes up no matter what we try and how long he's been asleep for) and only stays asleep for an hour in arms.
Anyone suggesting cosleeping and saying crying is cruel can just fuck off because I've tried cosleeping and he won't feed lying down and won't be lowered off me, if I do manage it he wakes to feed every 20 minutes. He is now crying all the time anyway because he's tired and I've actually injured myself from holding and rocking him to sleep for every nap and about 14 times in the night. So I'm now in the position of trying to feed him to sleep because I physically can't rock him, but he's a really difficult feeder so often even feeding is a wrestling match with a lot of screaming..
So I'm practically at the stage of using CIO just through lack of alternatives - I have cuddled him and done what I can but he has cried for an hour non stop because I can't rock, only stopped when my husband came home and was able to rock him to sleep. So it seems we may as well do it properly.
I'm worried about CIO because he poos and vomits and is a real screamer - I can barely take him out in the car because he becomes more and more angry the more time goes on and I'm sure he's doing damage with that level of distressed crying. So I can only imagine it will be truly horrific, and if it doesn't work I dont know what I will do. Everyone talks like it's a quick fix but from what studies I've found it is far from sure that it will work.
What was your experience if you did it? (And stuck to it)

Yep I keep saying I'm giving up breastfeeding...then it gets better briefly and I think no not yet. DH has been doing an evening bottle feed, today I've experimented with breast feeding as much as I can in one go then offering a bottle of formula. He's quickly drunk quite a bit of formula each time.

If nothing changes it's a good point, I may look up childminders to see if anyone has a few hours spare. Nurseries round here are all two day minimum and £80+ per day so it's a big commitment financially, and I'm not sure I want him to be in childcare for so long when he's so small (although appreciate people do and it does no harm). Paid care is one of those things that seems ridiculous when things are going ok but actually we are only ever teetering on the edge of disaster. I guess I just really want to sleep at night so I can enjoy mat leave and enjoy the baby - he really is lovely when he's not screaming!

I have supportive family but they are an hour away, except DH of course but I worry about him being safe driving to work if he doesn't get at least a few decent hours sleep.

Honestly things get better at the 6 month mark. Babies become super-quick bf too! Ofcourse every child is different but I really love it when babies are out of that initial feeding so often, being rocked so often, crying so often phase.

Everyone says you miss it but I really miss 6-12 months.

Just wanted to ask op, when did the tongue tie get cut? We had similar issue and ds didn't get his cut until 5 months and we had to go private because he'd been assessed as not needing it, so if it's been recent the dentist did warn us it takes a while for older babies to learn how to feed with a looser tongue. Dunno why they're so reluctant to release them now. The other thing I was going to suggest which you've maybe already done is go to a sling library and get a fit check and see if they can recommend some positions that might let baby latch in the sling if that might soothe them? I could never get the hang of feeding while wearing but I did find correct fit really helped my back if nothing else.

Only other thing I was thinking is if your dh is doing paced feeding when he's giving the bottle? We didn't know about it initially but found a big difference in wind and reflux when we started using that and the wonky winding techniques, I just found them on YouTube.

If you're wanting to keep going with bf it can be hard around that age. Ds had a big drop in weight around then too and the best thing I did was join a bf support group. It was really good for the solidarity and advice and info so might be worth looking into what's in your area. It depends on who's in the group what the dynamic is like but I love my current group and its the second one I tried. I know sleep and lack of it is a big feature in our group and while it might not fix things, it might be nice to know you're not on your own. I probably wouldn't still be going with the bf if it wasn't for that group.

Everyone I know IRL who did Ferber sleep training had the experience that it worked. Definitely hire a sleep consultant if you can afford it to coach you through the process.

I had the same problem with my DS(26). When he was a baby, he'd only sleep if he was rocked. Like you, I was exhausted. I tried the Ferber method. By the 4th night he'd settle happily in his cot

Don't know, we briefly tried with DD and she screamed till she puked and just never gave up. Wouldn't settle for her dad either. Turns out she has horrific anxiety and is autistic, bad sleep comes with the territory but I'm trying to settle her little brother and she's snoozing away fine now, 2.5-3 years for her to sleep well. I remember seeing someone not to sleep train a baby at risk of anxiety and thought how the f are you supposed to know that?

She slept with me all the time till 2.5, I boobed her back to sleep a billion times because it was the only thing that worked. No it wasn't ideal or really my choice but a lot of things aren't with her.

DD also puked A LOT, all the time and on a hair trigger. No allergies.

It wasn't "normal" but it was just her 😞

I don't say this to be unhelpful just putting it out there that it's not a level playing field, DS would absolutely "give up" and go to sleep (he has done when I haven't been able to get to him). She never did settle into childcare either, too much anxiety but it took years and a lot of damage to work out.

Have you been prescribed anything for the reflux? Infant gaviscon worked wonders for my first born. I didn't realise how much discomfort he was in because it was silent reflux but then he really settled when we started using that. Better feeds and better sleep and a much happier baby.

Hope you manage to get sorted soon. Have you got any friends or family who could pop round to give him a cuddle while you have a rest?

With the buggy - is he in carrycot or the seat you can sit him up? We made the switch to the proper seat at 4 months because little one wanted to see more of the world and was also getting too small for the carrycot.

Can you prop pillows and sit in the middle of the bed (or safely away from the edge) and catch some winks while he is in your arms? Till someone can take him for few hours and you can sleep properly? I had the same issue with my first.

I think it's a phase albeit difficult one and since birth, it will pass for sure. 💐

@Anonnewbie do you think he could simply be hungry?

Your comment about breastfeeding as much as you can and then offering a bottle of formula which he took a lot of made me curious. I was BF my son, and one morning he spent ages BFing, but still was fussy and fidgety when we were done, so I made him an 8oz bottle and he sucked it down. It made me think he wasn’t getting what he needed from me. I gave him bottles from then on and no more sleep issues.

Also, I don’t think there’s any harm in trying the Ferber method to try and get him sorted out. While many people think you should only go by what baby wants, it really isn’t practical or sustainable to try and live with broken sleep for months on end.

We were in the same situation. Reflux is awful and painful for the baby. Ranitidine and Omeprazole made a little difference but the only thing that significantly worked was me cutting out dairy and the baby growing. We got the tongue tie fixed privately as it had been missed. It’s quite possible the baby is hungry and uncomfortable which makes sleep so difficult. I would get the tongue tie checked again as this can make breast feeding (more so than bottle feeding) hard. Nipple shields were my solution to feed without needing bottles until the tongue tie was fixed and afterwards whilst they were getting used to feeding again.

Logistically, timetabling opportunities for me to sleep got us through without using CIO or CC. I went to bed from 6:30-11:30pm then switched with my husband. I then got another couple of hours from 6-8am. At weekends, I got as much as I could. If the baby needed feeding, my husband brought him to me and I fell asleep quickly after although this wasn’t often. Accepting we needed to do this and knowing it wouldn’t be long term was hugely beneficial. When the baby was a bit older, I expressed some for a bottle if needed when I was asleep but they rarely took it.

CC would be preferable to CIO which is not fair on the baby and as a pp said, with CIO the baby stops crying because it knows no one will come.

When you’re in the midst of this it feels so desperate and I remember really having to bite my tongue when someone said, ‘this too shall pass’ because it was so frustrating (and horribly twee). Ours didn’t sleep though completely for a long time but the above made those challenging early months so much easier.

We did the Ferber method. It worked a treat. dad slept well from about 3months (after horrendous time with reflux) then got a cold at about 6 months and it threw her out of sync. Nothing we could do would get her to sleep, it was shrieking and crying. We were exhausted and nothing worked so we did controlled crying as a last resort. I found instructions on internet. Set a plan. Went in after a few mins and built it up. It was hard as natural instinct is to run to them. But it was only a couple of mins. It took two nights. Then she went back to sleeping through. It was amazing and saves our sanity. She's now 12 and there are no attachment etc issues. It did her no harm at all. Try it. What's 2 nights when you're going through hell?

Proven??!

I don't think so. Perhaps you could link to the proof.

Definitely go with a qualified sleep consultant before trying actual CIO, and try ferber before CIO.

If he’s crying all the time then i’d also actually get an appointment to discuss allergies or silent reflux as a cause, as there may be underlying issues to resolve or rule out before hiring a sleep consultant. My son always slept on me as he had silent reflux. Wouldn’t even lie down in a pram.

Thanks everyone, don't have time to reply to everything but I have read it all. I'm going to use a sleep consultant recommended by a friend so we have some confidence in when we can have catch up naps using rocking etc and when it might just make it worse. I'm also going to continue breastfeeding for now with some formula top up as we have had a bit of progress there - his poos were green and explosive from 3 weeks til last week, having gone through cutting out dairy etc it seems it was just a feeding problem (tongue tie cut was 5 weeks ago and it got better then too but then slid back before slowly improving - which is what I was told would happen. Shame it hasn't made the actual feeding that much easier but it seems he is more efficient at getting the fatty milk at least, and I should probably remember that the feeding has gone from impossible to just annoying!).

I've had some chair naps with him in the carrier, and he actually would be put down last night and did a couple of stints of 1hour plus in his bed so I'm feeling a bit more positive!

Glad to hear you've got a plan and feeling more positive OP! Wish you every success.

Surely you mean the opposite? There's lots of evidence that shows ten minutes and more is harmful to infants!

That's no what OP is asking though I don't think. Sorry Op I don't know anyone who had success that early with Ferber but do know a few for who it worked from 6/7 months onwards

It does get better!

What about a rocking swing while he's tiny?

That sounds like brilliant progress op! You're doing amazing and all the right things. The amount of effort you've put into trying to resolve things for your little one speaks volumes about your dedication as a mum.

Aww sorry OP I'd say bring him to me and take nap if it was possible. My first one was like this. Absolutely nothing wrong with her. She just didn't sleep and cried most of the time. I'm sorry to say it didn't get better for years. At 2 years old I couldn't even go to pee during the nigh withouther screaming bloody murder. She properly started sleeping at night at the age of 4 years!! Ferber, CIO didn't work she'd just get more unsettled, then angry and I couldn't calm her down at all. I honestly don't know how I survived it.
It's so different with my 8 month old now. Luckily she's the exact opposite from the first born. Although we went through the crying and no sleeping stage nothing would compare to my first born. That's why they're 14 years apart.

Few tips from my experience. Can u try formula exclusively. Maybe for couple days and see if that makes any difference. I stopped breastfeeding at 8 weeks myself and it was the best decision ever. Have u tried swaddling? Mine would not settle until she was swaddled. Do u have a baby swing? Your baby likes rocking this might be a good alternative for nap times. For me this was the only way my baby slept for couple hours otherwise she only had micronaps. Both my babies didn't do well with crying it out methods. They'd just get so angry and unsettled that it was 10x more difficult to calm them down. But I did try it. I think u should too. Wish u all the strength. Hopefully something will work sooner or later.

Have you tried cranial osteopathy? Tongue tie impacts the whole system.

Is baby on Omeprazole?

Sounds like your baby needs help to me. Something is unresolved here. You're focusing on your sleep which I understand but your baby has already been through so much and sometimes they need more holistic support.

You've picked the worst time to lose empathy. Your baby still needs you so much. Get a night nanny to come in and support you rather than just leave baby suffering.

Just to add my first was like this so I know how hard it is! Didn't sleep through the night until 4.

Have you looked into milk protein allergy? I had a baby similar to this and as soon as I cut dairy from my diet and used non dairy formula he COMPLETELY changed. Worth looking into.

Have you tried swaddling? Do you have a swing? Possibly a warm bath, feed and white noise in a swing will help?

My last baby was awful like this. She only slept 20 minutes at a time. 45 at most. She would take an hour to get a bottle down. If she was awake she was SCREAMING! It was pure misery. I had family ask me why I seemed drunk......... from lack of sleep and NO HELP! I completely feel for you mama! I stepped out of the room maybe 5 minutes, twice during her whole infancy. I couldn't do CIO but I did get to the point where I clearly tried. 5 minutes was long enough for me. She is now 6 and has medical issues related to sleep and others. I am so sorry you are going through this. I hope you and baby get some relief soon!

We've now tried controlled crying (total CIO) with a sleep consultant. Quite a bit of crying at first bedtime, then he pretty much has slept through the night since (I'm still getting him up for regular feeds for now). Naps are a bit harder, there's been a bit of real crying for a couple of them that feels wrong, but overall it's been nowhere near as hard as I thought and everyone in the house is so much happier. He's waking up happy (he often used to wake up crying) and I don't see any sign that he's learning not to cry when he needs something (I slept through a feed last night and he woke up and wailed after a bit).

Thankfully no pooing himself, very little vomit (he always vomits anyway it's not to do with crying just reflux). So far this seems magical! I would say I wish I'd done it earlier but I think 4 months is just right. Before 12 weeks his digestive issues and age meant he needed that 24 hour help I think.

I’m really glad it has worked out for you. Sounds similar to our experience. I have to say the magical sleeping through didn’t totally last for us as we hit teething and winter colds etc and I didn’t feel I could let her cry with those. But I’m talking a couple of wakes a night - we never went back to the every 30-40 minute waking needing rock to sleep nightmare. Hope you are feeling much better, I bet you are!