Does cry it out always work?

[Anonnewbie]

4 month old baby, will not sleep and both of our lives are hell. It's either he learns to sleep for at least a couple of hours at a time, don't care where, or I am going to lose it more than I already have.
Everyone keeps talking about the 4 month regression when I ask for help but it's been like this since day one, barring a few spells of him sleeping for a couple of hours at a time. He needs rocking and bouncing to fall asleep and only stays asleep when held. The only apparent change recently is that where he used to stay asleep for a few hours if held, or 1 hour in the crib, he now won't go in the crib at all (wakes up no matter what we try and how long he's been asleep for) and only stays asleep for an hour in arms.
Anyone suggesting cosleeping and saying crying is cruel can just fuck off because I've tried cosleeping and he won't feed lying down and won't be lowered off me, if I do manage it he wakes to feed every 20 minutes. He is now crying all the time anyway because he's tired and I've actually injured myself from holding and rocking him to sleep for every nap and about 14 times in the night. So I'm now in the position of trying to feed him to sleep because I physically can't rock him, but he's a really difficult feeder so often even feeding is a wrestling match with a lot of screaming..
So I'm practically at the stage of using CIO just through lack of alternatives - I have cuddled him and done what I can but he has cried for an hour non stop because I can't rock, only stopped when my husband came home and was able to rock him to sleep. So it seems we may as well do it properly.
I'm worried about CIO because he poos and vomits and is a real screamer - I can barely take him out in the car because he becomes more and more angry the more time goes on and I'm sure he's doing damage with that level of distressed crying. So I can only imagine it will be truly horrific, and if it doesn't work I dont know what I will do. Everyone talks like it's a quick fix but from what studies I've found it is far from sure that it will work.
What was your experience if you did it? (And stuck to it)

You say this has been going on since he was born, have you had him checked for allergies etc? Could it be something like silent reflux where he is actually in pain?

Does he have a dummy? White noise? Just trying to think of things but obviously don’t know if you have tried them already.

Lack of sleep is horrendous,I’ve been there but you say when he is crying for long periods he vomits and poos in distress so please don’t leave him CIO.

@Anonnewbie this sounds tough. I did Ferber at 5 months. It worked in three nights. Planning on doing the same this time around.

I don't know that he will vomit and poo I am just guessing as I don't normally leave him to cry.
Dummy - hates it. Can sometimes get him to use it if he's already calm but sooner or later he gets angry about it.
We use white noise, have had the evening and night very dark from birth with red night lights if we need to see. Bedtime routine, regular wake up time, used a snoo for 6 weeks then returned it as useless, tried cosleeping for a few weeks before and after that experiment. Now have a next to me and sleep with my arm on him if he's in there, also tried leaving him alone to self settle. Top end of the cot is propped up for the reflux. Use wake windows and experiment with shorter and longer ones.
We've been to endless clinics, allergies, reflux (he does have this hence the vomiting but it doesn't seem to upset him anymore), feeding help etc and he isn't allergic to anything that we can find and everyone just says it's totally normal hang on in there. I will literally dump my baby on the next person who says that - I've never doubted that it's normal although it's worse than any babies I've heard of in friends and family. But that doesn't help at all, it remains impossible to live with 20 minutes sleep here and there mainly sat up. I've given up on getting help because it's such a nightmare to get out of the house, he screams all the way and back in the car, the whole thing is traumatic every time and nobody has anything to say that you can't find from a quick Google
We will be trying CIO because anything is better than this for both of us, and doing it in a structured way is better than when I end up doing it because I physically can't rock/bounce him any more. He needs a mum that isn't just crying all day and literally dropping him from falling asleep stood up.
I've read so many sleep books and nothing has helped. He just won't sleep! The only thing keeping me alive is short naps while other people play with him and give him a bottle of formula, plus the occasional night where he sleeps for a couple of hours. I'm physically ruined and completely unable to interact with him in the day like he needs.

@testy1997 thanks. God I hope it works!

It's quite common for some babies to not sleep independently at that age. Your baby is still small yet and they might not be tired enoughh. When they get to about 6 months it gets easier.

Also some babies don't want sleep, they want mum. They may be tired but would rather be carried around looking and the world for 30 mins til they get tired enough to knock out.

You can try babywearing too?

Cry it out didn't work for my first who was a velcro baby. I tried at 6 months and 9 months and I tried properly. It was so traumatising and I wish I never did. With my second I just entertain him til he is exhausted. He is 6 months now though and it's much easier especially as they have less naps.

Controlled crying (going back in at intervals, aka Ferber method) is generally preferred to cry it out (where you leave & don’t come back). Is that what you meant?

To answer the q - controlled crying worked brilliantly for us to cure a “rock to sleep” habit (she had been waking every 30-40 min and wanting rocked back to sleep).

It didn’t stop wakings for other reasons, teething, discomfort, illness, no sleep training will do that and nor should it.

I have read on here about people cc did not work for though.

Controlled crying can work, or it can make it worse in my experience.

Cry it out method only works because your child learns that no one is coming for them and they essentially lose trust in their sole carer. Don’t do that.

It’s been proven that leaving a baby to cry for more than 10 minutes can’t negatively impact them.

Just re read your OP and you sound like you are where we were when I cracked and did cc.

I had fallen down stairs through sheer zombie level tiredness and nearly dropped DD on the way (thankfully didn’t) and thought anything is better than this.

However before we did cc - I saw a private lactation consultant who diagnosed tongue tie and we had it cut. I think this made a big difference to how well DD fed and how full/windy she was, so we were then really just curing the rock to sleep habit that had built up, this is why CC worked so well IMO.

I wonder if your DC may also have a tongue tie as it all sounds so familiar and you say difficult feeder. I wouldn’t try sleep training till you have checked this out as if there is an underlying issue then cc will just upset everyone for nothing.

You mention tricky feeding, have you tried bottles at all? Either expressed or formula, a big feed can really help settle them and let them have a big rest rather than lot of little snacks here and there especially if it's difficult,

And then I would try Ferber as opposed to straight up cry it out, may take a little longer but following a structure is much better than just leaving them full stop.

Good luck it sounds awful, hope it gets better for you soon

Op that sounds brutal and no wonder you're at your wits end, sleep deprivation is torture.

I have to say I do agree it's biologically normal for babies to wake a lot and want to be on you, but you need to be able to function too.

Have you looked into wake windows? Ds had colic and reflux and a tongue tie, cue 3hrs screaming hard every single night. It was utterly soul destroying and we just had to work things in shifts. At around that age i found ds was much more distracted and easily over stimulated so playing around with wake windows helped. I also went to bed as soon as dh came home from work for a few hours to make sure I wasn't going into the night on no sleep.

There are different levels of sleep training so I personally think it's OK provided you're doing a version that involves still responding to your child and comforting them. Leaving them alone to cry for long periods by themselves is more concerning to me because of how high their cortisol levels will get, which is counter productive to sleep in itself. Plus you're not giving yourself the chance to identify why your baby is crying. A 2 hrly wake up at that age is very normal for a breastfed baby because they suggest breastmilk so much quicker. Your baby is also really only at the age now where they realise that you're two different people which means you can leave so separation anxiety is common at this age on top of everything else. Lots of hide and seek etc is helpful for them to learn that you might go away but you'll always come back during the day. Do you have anyone who could help with babysitting etc so you can sleep during the day to make life easier?

Does your wee one take any medication for the reflux? Do they have a tongue tie by any chance?

Another recommendation for Ferber. It also took us 3 nights. I've attached the timeframe that we worked to, hope it helps.

We weren't in a position where it was becoming an issue, I seemed to find out accidentally that DS could in fact fall asleep if he really needed to by himself. It involved him defying a nap in my arms and I needed to do housework so popped him in the cot and left him to it! I was surprised to see he did actually fall asleep by himself, so I took that cue and ran with Ferber for nighttime. We haven't looked back since.

I can also highly recommend an app called Smart Sleep Coach. This really helped nail his nap times with wake windows, but could also really help those who want to do CC.

Good luck!

Oh yes tongue tie cut also, quite late because an untrained midwife told us he didn't have it but he did.. it has really helped with his feeding and weight gain but he remains a very wriggly and upset baby a lot so feeding takes some real perserverence. Husband does an evening bottle so I can sleep but often it also my only chance to shower, eat etc which eats into the time. Plus I can usually hear him crying, and we only have one room with a bed so I then have to try to get to sleep while husband is attempting to put the baby down. Or else worry about the impact of him holding the baby and watching TV etc this ruining the bedtime routine and lights/stimulation. And overall husband is not home long enough during the week for us both to get anywhere near enough sleep if we take turns, especially given how the "sleeping" one is often sleeping through extensive crying.
i think we are going to use a sleep consultant just to have someone to guide us as to when it's ok to give up e.g. for a day nap to make sure he's actually sleeping and getting some comfort. We have been recommended one by a friend.
i do use a sling but it's doing my back in sitting bouncing with it on, and I can't then sleep with it on. He also hates being in it when awake, and won't go in the pram when he's tired so I feel like I can't even leave the house - he doesn't sleep in the carrier unless he's being bounced on a yoga ball so I can't just walk him to sleep like I did when he was very little.
It's honestly just ruining our lives and I hate how much he has just become a logistical problem and how hard it is to actually play with him and interact. We wanted more children but we've said we can't actually cope and are worried we will forget or hope for an easier baby. How people manage with another child I do not know.

I'm ignoring the crying is evil people as clearly they have not been here, nor have they read the studies that are unable to prove any harm short or long term. Clearly it's not anyone's first choice to let a baby cry but they don't learn not to cry at all they just learn to sleep. If it works... Otherwise we are just going to be exhausting all of us for no good reason. Sounds like Ferber may be the way to go.

Oh snap on the late tt cut and being told there wasn’t one.

We also hired a sleep consultant who basically did Ferber for us. Which I wasn’t expecting but my god it worked fast. One day, literally. Couldn’t believe it. (Although DC was still not a good sleeper for a long time - possibly due to health issues - but never went back to the 15 wakes and rocking to sleep)

Sleep consultant’s advice was that cc works easiest at first nap of the day and at bedtime. Didn’t recommend using cc for last nap of the day - use buggy walk or sling bounce for that (even hardline Gina Ford says may need to assist this nap).

Are you still feeding through the night? We had stopped except for a late eve feed which is part of why it worked fast.

good luck!

We did sort-of-Ferber with both ours but as gently as possible - so we did 1, 3, 5, 7, 10 min intervals every time. It probably took 2 weeks but I couldn’t have done the big gaps others have (entirely on me, doing it gently was the only way we were going to manage to have me stick to it!) We also got up with them if it hit 10 mins, gave it half an hour and then started again. Only had that happen a couple of times with each baby though.

I am a big advocate of it as both DC wouldn’t sleep unless on me or DH for the first six months so by the time we did it with both kids I was exhausted.

The above said, most of what I’ve read says that sleep training won’t really work pre 6 months. So there’s a risk it doesn’t work and then you feel even more hopeless…

I'm really struggling with my 5 month old at the moment, she just wants to be held all the time. She was also a really big cryer, hated the pram, car, bath... Big game changer for me was seeing a specialist baby osteopath. While her sleep isn't much better, the crying is a lot less and I can confidently leave the house now. There's quite a useful site https://www.calmingcolic.com/category/baby-birthtype/ to show you the kind of things osteopathy can help with.

I'm working with a sleep consultant who told me that CIO won't work on babies who have a temperament where they already do a lot of inconsolable crying. It's totally your call, I have one friend who said it worked and another who stopped trying when her baby cried until she was sick.

I'd also recommend this video

Yes, getting a sleep consultant sounds good. They will be able to give you some good advice I'm sure.

I saw a quote reading, "The busiest mum is the mum of one." And it was definitely true for me. When you have the second, third and so on ... You just give up and that stress of doing everything right disappears because it's impossible to be a perfect mum. Things will get easier honestly XXX

Thanks. I know a few people who gave up on the second and just brought them in bed with them so everyone got some sleep, but we don't seem to be able to even manage that! I guess my occasional sleeps in a rocking chair with him on/off feeding would probably become much more frequent if I had to function the next day, regardless of health visitors acting like I'm leaving my baby on a motorway.

@laallass I forgot that, but we have also done a course of cranial osteopathy. Not sure if it helped or not but I was willing to try anything.
Basically I think he was so unhappy in the early weeks and months that I was willing to do literally anything for him and there was no way I'd put him down if he was going to scream and be sick. Now the tongue tie/osteopathy/older baby seems to have stopped him being unhappy - he only cries so much when he's overtired which is admittedly a lot, all those habits have stuck and are proving so hard to undo.

It may not work at 4 months but I know of people where it did at 5, from what I can tell the 6 month thing is a bit arbitrary. The way I see it, if there's no results within a week, we can give up and reassess (although god knows what we will do), and a week of upset is not going to harm him.

Ok I see. You know your baby best, and I think you can give it a go and know when to push on or stop

OP just came to offer my sincerest sympathy. It is SO hard. Just want to say you're not alone. Is there any way you can afford to send the baby to nursery or childminder for a day? Or can DH or family be around to support more? It's really easy to slide mentally because of your tiredness. You need urgent change. I hope the methods suggested by PP work for you. Also as cruel as it sounds, do you think weaning off the boob might help and trying combination feeding? He might accept a pacifier, be fuller from formula for a night time feed and be a bit less interested in you overall. You could still express milk if you wanted to breastfeed for some feeds. My DC had a very passionate temperament as a child. It was like wading through mud at times wishing I could run away. If it helps, I have found toddlerhood much better! Though they still choke cough if they don't get their way 😵‍💫 You are doing really well!

I did put down and then go back every 10-15 mins to check dd was okay at 4 months ish. I'm a single parent and needed to sleep to be able to function.

It was hard going but I was determined and consistent, by the time dd was 6 months ish she was sleeping through the night.

Yes consider childcare . Both DC (although good sleepers) went to nursery pt from four and five months simply because I wanted to go back to work. They're 20 and 18 now, off at uni and completely unharmed. Consider a couple of days just so you can sleep, have a break from it. Not really fair to foist it on your family though IMO.
(I know it's not a popular opinion but mine both slept through when I stopped bf).