sleep and older children

[isitbedtimeyet]

I've changed my name for this to avoid feeling guilty about talking about my son.It's driving me and dh mad in the evenings that we are just not allowed any peace at all.Ds is 8 and will constantly come downstairs a few times sometimes until 11.30 is the latest he has been down.He demands food,it's no wonder he's hungry if he is staying up til that hour!And drinks.He reads like a fish usually until 9.30 or 10 when we go up and insist he settles down.Sometimes he does sometimes he doesn't.The other problem is he wets the bed about once a week or at least his trousers.Dh reckons it is because he is so tired when he goes to sleep he is zonked out.My mother thinks I should be very firm with him and even shout.TBH Dh sometimes does lose it a bit with him but it doesn't seem to make much difference.Sometimes he's still awake when we want to go to bed and we feel like we haven't had an evening together.What can you advise us?

hmm, a flimsy disguise, methinks, even for one so new here
the only thing that comes to mind is some kind of star chart or reward for not coming down in the evenings. It is difficult at that age to stop them reading while upstairs, even if you insist on lights out he will probably find a way!
I have no experience parenting older children, but I was the same as your ds many moons ago - a bit of an owl, hated going to bed and would read under the covers with a torch! I finally got bribed (with the hard stuff - money) for every night I didn't make an appearance downstairs. It was very effective!! I think I was probably about his age at that stage too. I can't remember how the rewards were phased out. My parents were quite firm though, I knew they took a dim view and never got much in the way of attention if I did go down.

Crikey I didn't think I was giving away much there!Do you know me?
Ah yes bribery,usually works doesn't it? We've only tried threats like no computer tommorrow and if you have a sandwhich you must go straight to sleep.

My ds has just turned 9 and he is always reluctant to go to bed. He was doing similar to your ds about a year ago - except the asking for food/drink - he wouldn't dare!! I removed the light bulb from his room - the only light in his room was a lamp that was plugged in outside his room - I would go up at 8:30 (unless there had been an agreed extension) and turn the lamp off. We have those glass panels above our bedroom doors and the landing light is usually left on so he could always see to get out if necessary. He soon realised there was no point in trying to come down - his light has now been returned and he has got into a decent evening routine - his main quirk now is that he always seems to keep his pooing for late at night (usually 10 minutes after lights out!!) He did have a couple of bedwetting incidents but I pinpointed this to the evenings when he did football training - which meant he was physically tired and had a sports bottle of liquid inside him - basic stuff here really, cut down on liquid intake late at night (try and avoid blackcurrant late at night) - if the bedwetting is a regular thing - may be worth getting him checked out though (is anything bothering him?)

don't worry, I'm probably wildly wrong!! Just guessing you might be a regular contributer with and 8yo ds.
IME positive reinforcement is very motivating, and I guess more pleasant to enforce. I'd perhaps offer something very boring to eat/drink, if anything (bread and gruel??!! I'm sounding a bit disciplinarian aren't I!!) In any case I think something subtler than just shouting may be needed.

Hi,Eliott no probs,not Tigermoth thoughHow about a positive slap on the bum?Do you think that would work?At least I haven't lost my sense of humour yet!I think you're right about being firm,not my strong point when it comes to the kids though,still trying to learn where that's coming from.Thanks for the ideas.
Hi Jaybee,nothing is bothering him as far as i know.He seems happy and cheeky enough as usual.It has been getting later and more frequent lately hence me posting now for advice.He does have blackcurrant juice so will now cut that out.Having most of the childcare to myself though i do feel exhuasted come the evening and frankly feel I 've seen enough of kids and need a break.He does occasionally wet the bed,how common is this for 8yr olds i wonder?Perhaps I may get him checked out but does anyone elses 8yr old do this sometimes?We don't make a fuss when he does and he doesn't come into us to get it changed in the middle of the night he usually just sleeps through it,so not much problem there.Thanks for the advice.

My friends' 10 year occassionally wets the bed, especially when he is worried, which is quite a lot. He is going on School Camp next week so she has got some medicine to stop him having troubles there, but I dont think the GP is going to treat him any other way.
With regard to the late nights, my ds (9 next Feb) is the same. In fact all three of mine are going to bed later and later. Oldest doesn't go upstairs until 9-9.30 and is no real trouble then, but some nights when I go to bed 10.30-11 if I'm lucky he is still singing away and it is a bit irritating I must admit.
However I don't have any suggestions on how to deal with it because my son just can't seem to wind down to sleep any earlier whatever we try. I think ours just likes our company.
I suggest getting a babysitter and going out!!!!!!

Hi isitbedtimeyet, I must confess to being another who thought you were Tigermoth in disguise! My eldest son has just turned 7. He goes to bed at about 7ish, give or take half an hour and is usually fast asleep pretty quickly. However, when he was younger (between about 3 and 5) he was a horror and would be forever hanging around the sitting room door, protesting that he wasn't tired when he was obviously shattered and, yes, saying that he couldn't sleep because he was hungry. I always think that even at such a young age, he twigged that this was the real guilt trip - I felt I was starving my child, not only emotionally, by not wanting to spend every moment of my waking day with him, but by not feeding him enough!!!

Anyway (and I don't have the energy to change my name!) after about a year of this, we just started to get really cross. Yes, we shouted, yes, we ignored and on the food issue, I gave my son a small glass of water and a piece of plain bread - he has always eaten like a horse anyway, so I knew that he was not really hungry. My d.h. played the bad guy (not to everyone's taste, I know) and d.s. was allowed to stay in his room, with the hall light on and the door slightly ajar and a few books, teddies, toys etc. in his bed. The big rule was that under no circumstances was he to come and disturb us and he could not leave his room rather than to go to the loo! I figured I couldn't demand that he slept, but that I could insist he didn't leave his room.

I know this must sound cruel to some mums, but it was just becoming stupid. My d.h. and I had absolutely no time alone to chat or chill out to t.v., music etc and it was making us really grumpy and not much value as parents. Don't feel bad that you need some time. I really feel that kids need to know that they are loved and valued but that they can't have attention 24 hrs a day and that parents are people too.

Sorry to go on, but anyway, it worked and we went through the same thing with d.d, now 5 and no doubt will with new d.s., aged 1. Hope you find something that works for you, isitbedtimeyet and keep us posted. xxx

By the way, when we went through this with d.d she drew all over the walls in protest. It never rains ......

staying in the bedroom sounds like the best option to me. during our bedtime preamble dd isn't allowed back in living room after bath, only into bedroom to get pyjamas and choose books, drink milk etc.

no it's not me, but my 8 year old is not too good about bedtimes als - we usually settle for about 9.30-ish. My 3 year old however .....ahhh. Captain Chaos of the night. Will come back to this thead when I have more time.

Personally, I think a good spank is in order. Or if you don't believe in spanking, how about loud shouting. And certainly you could take away priveleges as a punishment for getting out of bed (make sure he knows toilet visits are ok). I think 8 is far too old for this type of behavior. I wouldn't allow any child of any age (or adult for that matter) to "demand" anything from me.
Perhaps he needs a later bedtime, so that he is truly tired when he goes to bed. He might be feeling that you are putting him to bed too early in order to get him out of the way and is reacting to that.
By the way, have you made it clear to him that he is not supposed to be getting out of bed and demanding things?
Is it possible that he is drinking something that has caffeine in it in the afternoon/evening which is keeping him awake. (my dh used to pick his kids up from their mother, take them to mcdonalds and let them have a large coke with their dinner...and then wonder why they ran around like maniacs until midnight).
I would guess that the bed wetting is a result of the late-night drinks.

This is my ds you are talking about,also just turned 9,except the bedwetting.We have tried everything but nothing seems to work and the only thing I would say in his defence is that I can't go to sleep on demand.He has now started to get upset because he can't get to sleep,the light goes off in term time at 8.30pm and we also have the visiting the loo scenario,but this is mostly acover for reading his book!
I have shouted but try not to as I can't believe that this will help him to get to sleep.
We don't drink anything except water and milk and no sweets after 5.00pm so I don't think caffeine is to blame ,I am very reassued by this thread as I thought it was just me!

As a parent who has a 10 year old who wets the bed every night still, here is some advice I have been given. Didn't work for dd but might for your child.

Restrict fluid 1 1/2 - 2 hours before bed.

Make the last drink milky and warm, but NOT hot chocolate, as it encourages bedwetting. Cocoa is ok though.

Keeping their bottom half uncovered sometimes works as the cold if they wet themsleves teaches them not to do it again.

Make sure they go to the toilet very last thing at night, and if they are still awake an hour later then make them go again.

Offer little treats for so many times being dry.

Doctors are reluctant to investigate up until the age of 7, but if this is a problem which is regular and long term then at his age your son should be referred to a specialist with no struggle. They will go through various options such as bed alarms, medication, ultrasound and x rays to exclude a physiological problem. There is an advice centre called ERIC if you need more help. Do a google search and it will come up with the details. Hth.

Yes, I think firmness is called for. If he's hungry, bread and butter, thirsty? water. Wants to talk more? well you'll wake him half an hour earlier in the morning and talk with him then.

But also compromise. I hate to say this, but IMO at least I think long quiet adult only evenings are a thing of the past when your child reaches 8-ish. At least though my son is far easier company if he is downstairs with us and he knows after 8.30 ish he is entering adult time and must calm down or go to bed.

We always used to aim for an 8 - 8.30 bedtime for my son for years (he's never had to get up mega early in the morning). However, sometime around 8 years I realised this was not possible. His knows his bedtime is later - 9.30 ish - because he is bigger and older. He just doesn't get tired as easily as he used to now ie he no longer zonks out in the car on the drive home if we've had a big day out, or falls asleep on the sofa if he's watching an evening film at weekends. He still gets at least ten and a half hours sleep a night. If he's really sleepy in the morning I take it as a sign he needs more rest and try for an earlier night the next evening.

So we go the firmness with compromise route. When he's in bed dh or I go up to say goodnight and have a talk to him, then he can read or play with his gameboy for a while. Often he doesn't do this. Then dh or I check on him about half an hour later. He's usually fast asleep.

I have to say my son was always an OK sleeper, and so we've never had huge sleep problems, butI am sure if we still stuck to the 8.30 deadline, we'd have far more angst.

So isitbedtimeyet, could you try a later bedtime?

Just trying to think who you could be - I thought I knew most of the posters here with 8 year boys, but you are a mystery to me!

Dear Anonymous, agree with the others about firmness and shouting if necessary but consistency is the most important thing (and hardest to achieve!)

I wouldn't give him any food - as you say, it's his own silly fault for being still awake. I suppose actual ignoring is out of the question? One of mine (older now) always has been a very persistent irritant and WILL NOT BE IGNORED but if your DS is not like that it might be worth trying - just act as if he's not there when he comes down?

Occasional bedwetting isn't a medical problem - your DH is probably right that it just happens when he's exhausted. (SofiaAmes mentioned caffeine, does he ever drink coke? As well as keeping him awake that could lead to bedwetting too.)

kkgirl, your friend's DS also doesn't have a medical problem so the tablets are all the GP can offer really. (They act on the kidneys to make them produce less urine at night so they're good for occasional use, like sleepovers.) Like lou33 I have an older child who is a regular bedwetter and we have got well into the school nurse system, I think I know nearly as much as they do now...!

Janh

I think the problem with my friends' son is stress. He is a sensitive boy who is worried sick about the school trip next week, and worries about the troubles in Iraq, September 11th all those adult issues, as well as worrying about still using baby toothpaste, having ears which stick out a bit, it is such a shame, she doesn't know what to do for the best

OOh thanks for all your input,yes it's good to know I'm not the only one.SofiaAmes,think you may have something there about attention.Have to think about that one.Sorry no more comments at the moment,feeling really rough with flu and have called dh home from work so I can go to bed this afternoon.Must get back to this another time.Thanks.

we've been througth this with our ds (is it only boys that play up?) he's 9 so old enough to know better. i have a rule that every time he disturbs my evening i put his bedtime forward by 5 minutes. this seems to have bored him into submision as its very dull to go to bed at 6.30 and lie there staring at the ceiling just because he messed me around the night before. he is also alowed to take a small water bottle to bed with him as he does get genuinly thirsty.

natascha

No its not just boys. I have trouble with my dd as well.
Because I have two the same age they both have to have the same bedtime and then of course they play together get more and more excitable and won't/can't go to sleep. They also are tending to want to sleep together and in bed with my eldest who doesn't go upstairs until after 9 and it is getting later and later because we try to get them off to sleep first for obvious reasons. Vicious circle?

What is it about sleep problems that is somehow embarrassing? Why did anonymous feel the need to be so, for this query? When my eldest was tiny he was a hideous sleeper - dreadful at bedtimes, awful during the night, an early riser, and needed very little sleep in total. And I was always so embarrassed about it - like it was my fault! Now he's fantastic at bedtime and nighttimes, but I'm not sure either the demon phase nor the angel phase were particularly anything to do with anything I did.

Sorry, no advice here. Mine are still too young (3 and 5) to comment relevantly, and I can't remember when I was 8!

kkgirl, your friend's son sounds like a very sensitive litle boy, there are a lot of troubles in the world and baby toothpaste and sticky-out ears don't help.

How close are you to them? Can you suggest they let him use grown-up toothpaste? (Mildmint (green) Aquafresh is very popular in our house.) Can you try to tell him that Saddam is a long way away and that he will get sorted out? And that most of us are safe from most dangers? (Not necessarily true I know but might help him.)

The ears are another thing altogether. How bad are they? I saw the new Education Sec on the news tonight and his ears are really bad but I don't suppose that will help your little friend. They can have surgery, there was a letter about it on the Times Health page this week, I'll see if I can find the address of it for you - the letter was about a 7-yr-old and the reply said that was a good age for surgical correction but 10 is not so far away.

It's not that long - have copy-and-pasted it:

Hope this helps! (this is the website address if you want to check it out:

www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,589-454361,00.html)

Janh

Thanks for the info. I will tactfully try to pass it on to my friend. She does try hard but her husband doesn't support her, well he works long hours.

Oh boy,bl++++ terrible night last night,both children staying up til 11pm with oldest setting alarm clock at 5am without me knowing to get up to play on playstation.I dragged myself out of bed to tell him to get back upatairs to bed.Teacher tells him he looks tired this am good job she didn't see me also!As for all this good advise I'm getting through it all and thankyou for keeping me sane on here in more ways than one.Trying to watch a video last night with dh was stop and start all the way through and ended up with dh shouting a bit.This doesn't make things any good and he has been quite depressed lately and I have been walking around the house now for weeks treading carefully through gritted teeth.I think the holiday brochures will have to come out for next year to give me a reason for living this week.Haven't had chance to read carefully all this fantastic advice but have been trying to give son a bit more attention to see if this works.Will report back.AArgh LIFE.

Snap

I had the same last night with dd still wailing at 11pm, really overtired and distraught because her beloved Tallulah (stuffed cat)has been missing since last monday