Toddler Has Never Slept for more than two hours!

[CharleneFF]

First time posting here.
I have a 17 month old little girl who has always been a terrible sleeper (due to reflux when she was newborn and would only sleep through contact napping).
Still breastfeeding and it always helped getting her to sleep for naps, and eventually bedtime (after an hour of battling).
She basically naps usually once a day between 40 and 90 mins, she’s not great at connecting her sleep cycles so often wakes early and then I feed her back to sleep so that she’s getting enough daytime sleep. She has a very structured bedtime routine which includes a book, bath and breastfeed. However, it’s taking over an hour to get her to sleep every night and she has no idea how to go to sleep without me or her dad. She is either fed or rocked to sleep constantly and then wakes on average 5 times a night but sometimes up to 8 times. She has white noise, a comforter, an amber light when fed, sleep bag, etc. She has never slept through the night and it is extremely rare for her to sleep more than two hours without waking. She starts off in her cot and ends up in the bed with myself. I’m aware that breastfeeding is a sleep association for her but because she is waking so often I can’t bear the thought of rocking her to sleep 7 times a night so weaning doesn’t seem to be an option. Sleep training isn’t for us.
It’s been 17 months of never sleeping more than two hours and breastfeeding all through the night and I’ve hit a wall. I’ve never felt more lost about what to do for the best. I feel so guilty that she doesn’t know how to put herself to sleep so is having terrible sleep because of this.
She’s such a happy girl despite the bad sleep and has an enormous amount of energy (she’s taken on long walks with our dog everyday and walks the whole way and this still doesn’t tire her out). Any help is much appreciated. It seems like everyone I know has a baby that sleeps and I just feel like I’m doing something very wrong :(.

You can sleep train and continue breastfeeding. I have.

My toddler is 18mo breastfeeds once or twice a day and sleeps 7-730.

We did CIO sleep training at 6 months night one it was 30 mins of crying, by night 3 he was asleep within 2 minutes of me shutting the door.

You could try shush pat, the chair or ferber if you are "against" CIO but it will take longer. And there has been no real good evidence that any form of sleep training is harmful as long as the child is attentively cared for and not just neglected.

What ever method you choose your daughter will likely cry a lot when you do it but creating healthier sleep habits is really important for her brain, and your sanity too.

Had to finally join mumsnet rather than lurking to offer some support and solidarity op. Breastfeeding to sleep is the biological norm and practiced widely throughout the world, as is cosleeping. Sleep is developmental, you have done nothing wrong and should not feel bad ‘she doesn’t know how to put herself to sleep.’ The trouble with night weaning is until you do it you don’t know if it will improve night wakings or just take away your best tool to get your child back to sleep. In your situation you may get more rest by fully embracing Co-sleeping from the off rather than transferring to your bed later in the night. You’ve said your keen to continue breastfeeding and sleep training isn’t for you, I think maybe try and adjust your expectations and accept that for the time being your baby has high needs at night (as many do) and you’re meeting those. It will change in time and she’ll start doing longer stretches.

It’s also biologically normal to raise children in large, multigenerational families with lots of support…not as part of a couple, where (at least) one person is out of the house for the majority of the day. If it works great, but I found 2 hourly wake ups (which we had for months and months) and either functioning in my job or looking after my DC completely incompatible. It’s also completely okay to make changes. That doesn’t have to mean being none responsive.

@Babyccino11

Had to finally join mumsnet rather than lurking to offer some support and solidarity op. Breastfeeding to sleep is the biological norm and practiced widely throughout the world, as is cosleeping. Sleep is developmental, you have done nothing wrong and should not feel bad ‘she doesn’t know how to put herself to sleep.’ The trouble with night weaning is until you do it you don’t know if it will improve night wakings or just take away your best tool to get your child back to sleep. In your situation you may get more rest by fully embracing Co-sleeping from the off rather than transferring to your bed later in the night. You’ve said your keen to continue breastfeeding and sleep training isn’t for you, I think maybe try and adjust your expectations and accept that for the time being your baby has high needs at night (as many do) and you’re meeting those. It will change in time and she’ll start doing longer stretches.

Couldn't have put it better myself. Don't be pushed into doing sleep training or anything you're not comfortable with. I cosleep with my 11 month old who is breastfed to sleep. She's just started nursery and can sleep for others but still needs me at night and I am embracing it. She won't be like this forever.

As for CIO - I can't believe people can listen to their baby cry for 30 minutes. Everything I've read suggests that sleep training works, not because the baby 'learns' to self settle, they just realise no one will come to them so they effectively give up. Each to their own but I couldn't stomach that.

I would worry she has silent reflux and is waking uncomfortable and the milk is easing it for her.

This was our situation. I set up a bed on the floor and we co slept in that for a couple of years. We were up 10 times a night and nobody understands what that does to you !!

I stopped just before 3, no reason I know of. I breastfed past that due to allergies so it wasn't stopping breastfeeding that made him sleep.

Totally agree with you, our society is in complete contrast to those who have ‘a village’ to support in bringing up children, I’m not criticising individuals who night wean or sleep train, not at all. I wanted to offer validity to the op that her baby’s behaviour is normal and that if she doesn’t want to night wean or sleep train that’s normal too.

I have a 2.5 year old with allergies and reflux. I had to put a baby gate on her bedroom and she takes my oodie to bed so she can smell me. I get maybe 5 hours that way then eventually she ends up back in bed with me. We still don't have the reflux under control so she has broken sleep too. I suppose I'm hear to say you're not alone and it's very very hard x

@Babyccino11

Totally agree with you, our society is in complete contrast to those who have ‘a village’ to support in bringing up children, I’m not criticising individuals who night wean or sleep train, not at all. I wanted to offer validity to the op that her baby’s behaviour is normal and that if she doesn’t want to night wean or sleep train that’s normal too.

But OP isn’t posting because cosleeping and breastfeeding is going swimmingly & she’s feeling under pressure to fix something that ain’t broke.

She’s posting because she’s exhausted and can no longer cope with 2 hour stretches of sleep. Frankly, she’s probably not even in a state to drive after suffering that for over a year. Her little girl is also not getting a good quality stretch of sleep - also essential for development and happiness.

All this talk of ‘meeting needs’ and African villages means nowt when the OP is too tired to enjoy her little one, and her little one clearly isn’t getting the sleep she needs. It isn’t developmentally normal for a baby to not sleep for longer than 2 hours for over a year - it’s a habit.

Nobody is saying OP should stop breastfeeding or being an attentive mum, but sometimes that means acknowledging something needs to change.

If they have only ever fed to sleep how can they know how to settle themselves? Bf is not something they can do for themselves

Big pro breastfeeding advocate here but I canned feeding to sleep at 6mo and started feeding in a chair sitting up then reading to her softly while she was in her bed.

She is 10 now and consistent sleep hygiene means we have only ever had about 5 difficult bedtimes which were directly associated with specific events.

The folk here conflating sleep training with cry it out are confused.

Cry it out is cruel to very small babies but it is a point you will reach with a toddler or end up with a screamer who knows they can get whatever they want by threatening to cry or crying till you give in.
Often followed by head banging or other self harm as an escalation when crying alone isn’t cutting it anymore.

Sleep training is a gentle and gradual process for teaching a baby (6+ mo) that they are safe in their bedroom and that you will be somewhere nearby if they call you.

I recommend reading a few methods and devising for yourself what you will do AND THEN STICKING WITH IT

My dd is just about to turn 3 and now sleeps much better but I was where you are when she wa that age. Something that helped us was loud white noise. Needed to be louder than i had initially used. Propping her up so she wasn’t lying flat as she still suffers from reflux now. Cosleeping saved my sanity. Between 18 months to 2 she just gradually started sleeping longer. I didn’t stop breastfeeding her to sleep but she gradually started to be able to sleep occasionally without it.
My eldest who wasn’t breastfed was also a terrible sleeper. The common thread for both of them was reflux and it just took until they were 2 for them to outgrow it enough to comfortably sleep for longer periods of time. I hope you find some answers and get some rest as I know how exhausting it is when you are in the middle of it.

But the op has also said that she feels that everyone else has children who sleep well and she feels bad her child can’t settle herself to sleep, it sounds as if there is a pressure or expectation that others were ‘doing better’ hence my point that frequent night wakings are not necessarily abnormal and feeding to sleep and cosleeping are very valid options.
We can only comment on our own experiences and for me embracing cosleeping led to much more rest for all of us, I’m not saying that works for everyone or that it’s the ‘best’ route. The op’s child sounds as if she is happy and thriving and full of energy during the day.

@Babyccino11

But the op has also said that she feels that everyone else has children who sleep well and she feels bad her child can’t settle herself to sleep, it sounds as if there is a pressure or expectation that others were ‘doing better’ hence my point that frequent night wakings are not necessarily abnormal and feeding to sleep and cosleeping are very valid options. We can only comment on our own experiences and for me embracing cosleeping led to much more rest for all of us, I’m not saying that works for everyone or that it’s the ‘best’ route. The op’s child sounds as if she is happy and thriving and full of energy during the day.

Because to be honest, the majority of 1+ year olds do sleep much better than this. I’m hard pushed to think of any similar aged child I know who wakes up more than once a night on a regular basis. Good quality sleep is essential for the mood and health of the whole family, it isn’t all about the child. They’re ‘valid options’ if they result in a happy mum and child, but that isn’t the case here.

OP I’ve breastfed my DD for nearly 3 years so I get it, I really do. But you need to nightwean now.

I night weaned my DD at 11 months, and it took 2 days but it does click and then once they know there’s no snacking at the boob they just sleep through the night. She’d wake up ravenous, but soon started eating proper meals (while earlier she had been an indifferent eater), and I continued feeding her in the day for nearly 2 years after night weaning her. But you need sleep! The whole family as a unit needs to function, and she will get all the comfort and antibodies and health benefits of breastfeeding even from just daytime feeds.

I bf my 2 yo to sleep. He wakes up once in the night to feed. And now feeds 4 x - once before bed, once at midnight, once at breakfast, and a short feed when he comes home from nursery. It’s natural for breastfed babies / toddlers to wake in the might and perfectly natural. So comparing with formula or mixed fed babies / toddlers isn’t right. Cosleeping entirely, as I said before, will massively help in reducing the number of feeds (many of which will be just for comfort) because she can smell / hear you. Then once she grows secure in knowing you’ll be there you can start slowly leaving her in your bed and getting on with stuff. It worked for me and has worked for other bf mums too - I actually followed a guide to sleep hygiene for breastfed babies which mentioned cosleeping as essential. 8 feeds is really a lot at night.

Is her reflux controlled now?

Do not blame yourself. Breastfeeding to sleep is completely natural and one of the things breastfeeding is designed for.

@Daisychain I didn't listen, I put headphones in and just checked in on the baby camera every 5 or so mins. Half an hour goes surprisingly quickly and one night of crying is more than worth years of practically perfect sleep.

My son got teeth at 4 months, he was biting me when he was falling asleep on the breast.

Sleep training prevented me from quitting breastfeeding earlier than we wanted to.

She is a baby. She isn't 'supposed to' sleep alone. Relax and give your baby what she needs.

@StopStartStop

She is a baby. She isn't 'supposed to' sleep alone. Relax and give your baby what she needs.

Bit bloody hard to relax when you’re sleep deprived.

I don’t think the ‘just co sleep’ ‘it’s normal’ ‘she’s a baby’ crew really help these issues. It’s very unusual for a child to sleep that badly- certainly not the norm at all. The OP is exhausted and the two methods generally suggested (co sleeping and bf) aren’t working. Instead of telling her to put up with it indefinitely giving her things to do which will likely help is far better (eg gentle sleep training, night weaning). I had a friend on a bf forum who asked for advice and so much was ‘well my 3 year old still breastfeeds 3 times a night it’s normal’. I think sometimes people want to validate their own choices but some people choose sleep (for them as well) and that’s ok!

I think you’re right @UoMomster

People like that tend to be so committed to the breastfeeding/cosleeping thing that they will not admit when it clearly isn’t working or doing anyone much good.

Weaning didn’t help with any of mine, i extended breastfed too and they were all crap sleepers, weaning changed nothing. They started sleeping through at age 4/5.

Mine started sleeping better when I stopped giving them milk at night.

I would say the same if she was ff and waking every 2 hours. It’s the feeding to sleep that is the issue. That doesn’t mean you need to stop bf OP but you need to help her learn to go to sleep in a different way.

[quote HairsprayBabe]@Daisychain I didn't listen, I put headphones in and just checked in on the baby camera every 5 or so mins. Half an hour goes surprisingly quickly and one night of crying is more than worth years of practically perfect sleep.

My son got teeth at 4 months, he was biting me when he was falling asleep on the breast.

Sleep training prevented me from quitting breastfeeding earlier than we wanted to.[/quote]
Good for you.

We all know what we can tolerate. Leaving a baby to cry alone for 30mins is probably on the more extreme end of what's being advocated here. I personally think it's barbaric but each to their own.

I'm sure there are some gentle methods that the op can deploy - I was simply saying she shouldn't feel forced into doing something she isn't comfortable with.

Barbaric 😂 I have a medical condition which means I can come over very weak & dizzy suddenly, when this happened I had to put my baby down for her own safety for around 20 minutes, whether she was crying or not. Is that barbaric? If so, why is she such a happy and confident child now?