7 yo wakes up at 5am and has to wake whole house

[ProudDadOfTwoBoys]

Hello, first time poster, hope dad's are allowed here!

I need help! Two lovely boys, 5 and 7. 5 yo is independent, chilled and goes to bed very well, no fuss or arguments, straight to sleep and will generally sleep in until 630 to 730.

However my 7yo is incredibly highly strung, super demanding on our attention, emotional and very argumentative. He's recently got into the habit of coming to the top of the stairs and shouting "are you down there / what are you doing / I'm too hot / too cold / can't sleep / when are you coming to bed" etc etc etc. Basically stalling. This can go on for an hour. It disturbs the 5 yo. We've tried various tactics, tons of positive reinforcement, nice activities, star charts, even £1 for every night he sleeps without shouting down, taking away treats like his tablet or sweets if he doesn't, nothing works.

Bedtime routine is consistent, teeth bath story bed.

Then in the morning he will get up anytime from 4am and wakes everyone up. We tell him to go back to sleep and occasionally he will until 5 or 530. No major problem during the week but it's becoming so tiring, we all wake up groggy and grumpy. He won't go downstairs on his own - he used to do this and was happy making his own breakfast and watching TV or playing with his toys until 630 or 7.

We've tried earlier bed, later bed, leaving books and even his tablet to play with when he wakes but he still has to wake us all up, over and over (every 10-15 mins) until at least one of us gets up with him. He then demands immediate play and attention the minute we're up.

It's draining. I totally accept that it's just part of his body clock and we need to make allowances, but any suggestions would be really appreciated.

@ProudDadOfTwoBoys

Thanks for your reply, great for you to have had some solid success. We've tried the daylight thing, 2 different grow clocks, strict rules before bed about getting up, no engagement, telling him to get back into bed but whatever we do, he just comes back in over and over until we get up. It's not just that but it's the immediate 'i want to play a game, do Lego etc' with us.

Honestly, the intermittent reinforcement here is probably encouraging him. He knows that he just needs to be persistent and so eventually one of you will get up and start playing Lego or whatever he’s demanding.

It’s hard but being utterly consistent and unmoveable on the time he’s allowed to get up (and, crucially, to force the rest of the household to get up) is really important.

You can’t make him sleep. But you can totally refuse to engage with him or entertain him before 7am (or whatever time you deem acceptable). He is 7 and can read or draw quietly in his room until other people are getting up.

You don’t just have to ‘accept that it's just part of his body clock and we need to make allowances’. It’s important for him to learn that the entire world is not centred around entertaining him and that he needs to be considerate of everyone else in the house. He’s no longer a baby; he can learn to entertain himself quietly in his room until 7am.

My nephew has ADHD (and other conditions he’s being assessed for) and a whole set of really challenging behavioural problems. He’s 5 (and not in mainstream school full time). He rises early and is allowed to draw quietly (watching YouTube videos as inspiration) until everyone else gets up. He is not allowed to wake everyone else up and demand their attention. I’m not saying it’s easy for his parents. But it is possible to work on strategies to stop this kind of behaviour disrupting everyone’s lives as your son’s does.

Be honest with yourself about how consistent you are both actually being with him. Have you got a clear set of rules and consequences? Or does playing up eventually just reward him with yet more attention?

Some sort of visual timetable (and a clock) might help. And some kind of agreement that, if he sticks to it (goes to bed without disturbing everyone and does not disturb anyone before the designated time) that he will earn 30 minutes of you/his mum’s dedicated time and attention at 7am doing an activity he chooses. But he does not get this if he doesn’t keep up his end of the deal.

Attach the attention only to the behaviours you want to encourage. Do the silently taking him back to bed with as minimal fuss thing until 7am. And then get up and do not give him the attention he wants in the morning. Do what you choose (watch/read news, drink coffee, etc) and keep repelling demands with very low key rebuffs.

And, equally, if he does what he has been asked to do, be equally consistent in giving him that 30 minutes of Lego building or whatever. With no distractions (looking at your phone etc). No matter how little you feel like it. And be clear that he’s getting it because he’s done what you’ve asked.

You might need to sit down and think about steps to get from where you are to where you’d like to be. Maybe you think 7am is too much to ask to start with. In which case, start a staged plan. And tell him what the stages are (in the middle of the day - far away from the actual flashpoints). Outline the problem to him: he’s getting up too early and being inconsiderate to everyone else. You are going to put in place a plan to help him be nicer to everyone. So the first week, he’s allowed to get up at 6am (but will still have to wait til 7 for the half hour of one to one play) and so on.

Make him part of the problem solving and steer him towards better behaviour. But you must be rigidly consistent with it. It can improve.

Make sure that your 5 year old also get the reward bit. Every time. Even though they actually just do what is expected. That is fair for the 5 year old and shows the 7 year old that not disturbing everyone else has it’s rewards. It’s standard practice - not special attention for poor behaviour.

Seeing his sibling getting the attention while he’s rebuffed in a low key way (in the context of a clear, strong message about what he needs to do to get the same) will help him to choose to do things differently.

I definitely lean strict about this sort of thing. Positive reinforcement is not working, so it’s time for him to listen to Mummy and Daddy when they say NO and mean it.

When he calls down the stairs, one of you takes him straight back to bed. No smiling, no cuddling and petting. Serious voice. Mummy and Daddy are tired. Stay in your bed. No rewarding attention.

Same in the morning. Stern voice, no kisses or cuddles - back into your room and stay quiet til 6am. Here is a colouring book. Mummy and Daddy are very very serious about this and we will be very cross if you wake us again before 6am.

He’ll be pissed off and he’ll cry, which is hard, but constant positive reinforcement and rewarding bad behaviour is so counterproductive - and hasn’t worked.

I would seriously try being strict and disciplined with him for six months before taking him to the GP. This sounds more like a parenting problem than a behavioural one.

It sounds like you have tried lots of different approaches. The thing about that is, it means that he knows you will eventually stop that tactic and try something else! He has probably got used to- Dad will do this for a week and then give up. You need to pick ONE and stick with it! If the grow clock worked for a week, that’s great! Then he informed it, so that’s where you have (already in place) set sanctions for non compliance. And Cary on, don’t start a new thing!
Of course this is not guaranteed success, but consistently applying the same rules DESPITE his behaviour will show him you mean business. He’s old enough to discuss the rules and sanctions prior to these being put in place.
I really do wish you luck as no sleep is like torture.
SEN - special educational needs. You will have a designated SENCO(ordinator) at his school. Ask them for advice x

*ignored it not informed it 🙈

Why was he assessed for selective mutism? You or the school must have had concerns about his communication?

The thing about school is that it generally provides extremely clear routines and rules and consistency in the consequences (of both good and undesirable behaviour).

Offering more consistency at home will help.

I would seriously try being strict and disciplined with him for six months before taking him to the GP. This sounds more like a parenting problem than a behavioural one.

That would be a very cruel thing to do when it’s been flagged by school that he may have SENd.

@RacoonRocket

Our 7yo DS has always been a terrible sleeper and early riser.

He now goes to sleep around 8.30-9pm and wakes around 5.30-6am, often calling out for us several times in the night.

The only way he will now reliably go to sleep is with one of us lying on a mattress in his room next to him, and and when he calls out at night or wakes really early, one of us goes back to lie next to him for the remainder of the night. Our presence seems to reassure him into staying in bed longer, and allows us and his younger DC to get more sleep.

I think some kids are just more needy. We've accept we lose most of our evenings doing bedtime, and have to do a lots of bed hopping in the middle of the night, but it allows everyone the maximum amount of sleep with minimal fuss, anger and aggrivation.

I really don't think getting angry or "tough" with your DC is a particularly kind way of solving this problem. They have a need and are asking you for help to fullfull that need.

You are absolutely right. We've tried the tough route and it's horrible. He gets upset, we feel terrible for starting the day like that. I appreciate some kids would only need this approach once or twice (my 5yo would accept this day 1) but my 7yo is different, it just doesn't work.

You hit the nail on the head with reassurance. He needs to know we are up and with him, I don't get the impression he's trying to be difficult. He knows no other way.

*SENs

My DS was a natural early riser, 5am everyday without fail. Best advice I can offer is to make sure he gets enough sleep as otherwise DS was up early and grumpy all day, we also had a no electronics til 7am rule so if nothing else he’s now a very good reader and Lego master DS is now 12 and I get to wake him up as the early starts magically stopped at about age 10

What about putting him back to repeat the last year of school.
I have DD who was old in her year and siblings were young - there was such a difference in her success in schooling, even at A levels. It is partly temperament but if you go through school thinking you are a bit slow/stupid compared to the rest of the class it's not good imv.

Also having a 'perfect' brother who is loving school probably doesn't help - if he never gets told off it might seem that way to DS.

@Fashionesta

I'm going to disagree with previous posters. It's actually quite normal for children to go through a phase of being quite anxious and worried and needing to be close to their parents. They are starting to be aware of the world around them and also understand that there is a possibility that something can happen to mum or dad. My daughter became a lot more clingy at this age and wanted to make sure I was close all the time, needed to know where I was etc. I actually started to let her sleep in my bed again as that's what she needed at that time.

I'm not saying it's not SEN. Impossible to diagnose over the net. However I hate how quick people are to pathologise normal developmental behaviour.

This is really helpful, thank you. Other parents in our NCT group have found similar, although not as prevalent issues once their kids hit 7. It definitely does seem to be related to his understanding of the world, mortality of us as his parents etc.

Anxiety is also contributing. He hates crowds, anything that puts him on a pedestal (he absolutely hated being in the school play again and never wants to do it again). He's comfortable with friends and family but rarely wants to join in anything new or unknown (games at parties for example).

@LizzieSiddal

I may be completely wrong but from your last post he sounds anxious. Anxiety can be a symptom of SENs so getting him assessed via school or GP would be a good to rule in/out.

Yes, definitely some anxiety going on. Particularly with new experiences - just the idea of it can set him off.

I think the thing is, whether this is a developmental stage or an indicator of additional needs, his behaviour is negatively impacting the family. I have a DC with ASD, and whilst their behaviour can be challenging, they actually need clearer, firmer boundaries than my other DC, they find it much harder to be flexible.

Whatever you implement has to be enforced for at least two weeks, short term upset or not. Plenty of attention during the day, on your terms, may help but I couldn’t do these early wake ups long term, good luck!

With my DC we have worked hard on seeing their diagnosis as a ‘reason’ for the behaviour, and not using it as an ‘excuse’.

I have a Dd like this. As she became older it was obvious that it was anxiety.

However not all children with anxiety have ASD. She is also incredibly persistent, and your son sounds the same.

Often normal discipline techniques like ignoring don’t work with kids like this as they are too persistent/anxious

It sounds like your son doesn’t like being on his own for whatever reason (fear?) our daughter slept on a mattress in our room until her 13th birthday. All the behaviour issues stopped. She was just scared. The whole house slept better.

She departed on her 13th birthday, and now never leaves her room🤷🏼‍♀️.

Ignoring/discipline doesn’t work for a small subject,and can make it worse.

Subsect!

We used to say she was at the bottom of the bell shaped curve. Where about 5% fit

SEN - special educational needs

We were referred by our GP but the waiting list is over 2 years. We have opted for a private assessment instead but fortunately my husband has private healthcare through work and that covers most of the costs.

I agree it won't change the behaviour but at least I will know he can't help it and he will hopefully get the help he desperately needs at school.

@Icebear99

My DS was a natural early riser, 5am everyday without fail. Best advice I can offer is to make sure he gets enough sleep as otherwise DS was up early and grumpy all day, we also had a no electronics til 7am rule so if nothing else he’s now a very good reader and Lego master DS is now 12 and I get to wake him up as the early starts magically stopped at about age 10

Thank you

Assuming no sen or development issues - get a clock in his room. Tell him unless it’s 7 am he cannot come out of his room as morning time starts at 7 am. Reward occasions when he does this

Can I just say wow...what a response to this post. I didn't anticipate so much interaction and help - what helpful community this is, thank you all so much for your replies. We'll work on a structured action plan to start from tonight and monitor it. I've ordered a new digital clock for his room too. If we still get nowhere, we'll progress the SEN assessment route once we're confident this is not a phase linked to his understanding of the world.

Thank you all very much indeed. Off to play Lego with the boys now!

I think you’re expecting him to sleep
too much, the NHS recommends between 9 and 12 hours, your son son seems to need the lower end of sleep of 9 hours. Out seems like time to put him to bed much later , tone to change your routine and start sharing the evening with him and try and tire him out during the day.

I agree with this^

I’d be aiming to put him to bed much later. Dd went to bed at 8 when she was 7

My friend has two kids 2 and 5. They go to bed at 8.30.

Move his bedtime back - 7 is too early.
Stick to whatever plan you make. It sounds as though there’s no consistency and if he is anxious then consistency will help.
At the very least he needs to know he can’t shout early in the morning - it’s massively inconsiderate to the rest of the household

@Fleurchamp

Following because this is my life too.

We have a very strict bedtime routine, have done since he was a baby (because he was a shit sleeper then too). Same as you, it makes no difference. He takes about 2 hrs to go to sleep and in that time he is shouting, screaming or singing. He calls us up to ask pointless questions.

We are all exhausted but he will not sleep for more than 7/8 hrs. My DD (4) will happily draw or play by herself quietly in her room but DS (6) shouts and screams, stamps his feet or jabs us in the head until one of us gets up. He has done this for years. It puts me in a foul mood each day and makes it even harder to tolerate his behaviour during the day.

We are in the process of getting an ADHD/ADD assessment.

My eldest son did this for years and years. I was a single parent. The tiredness just about did me in. He has ADHD. It improved when he discovered the Horrible Henry and Captain Underpants books. At least then he would read in the morning so me and his younger brother got a bit more sleep. I remember going up to bed one night and getting under the covers in the clothes I was wearing because I was too tired to be bothered to take them off. As I got into bed he shouted "I'm not asleep you know ".