7 yo wakes up at 5am and has to wake whole house

[ProudDadOfTwoBoys]

Hello, first time poster, hope dad's are allowed here!

I need help! Two lovely boys, 5 and 7. 5 yo is independent, chilled and goes to bed very well, no fuss or arguments, straight to sleep and will generally sleep in until 630 to 730.

However my 7yo is incredibly highly strung, super demanding on our attention, emotional and very argumentative. He's recently got into the habit of coming to the top of the stairs and shouting "are you down there / what are you doing / I'm too hot / too cold / can't sleep / when are you coming to bed" etc etc etc. Basically stalling. This can go on for an hour. It disturbs the 5 yo. We've tried various tactics, tons of positive reinforcement, nice activities, star charts, even £1 for every night he sleeps without shouting down, taking away treats like his tablet or sweets if he doesn't, nothing works.

Bedtime routine is consistent, teeth bath story bed.

Then in the morning he will get up anytime from 4am and wakes everyone up. We tell him to go back to sleep and occasionally he will until 5 or 530. No major problem during the week but it's becoming so tiring, we all wake up groggy and grumpy. He won't go downstairs on his own - he used to do this and was happy making his own breakfast and watching TV or playing with his toys until 630 or 7.

We've tried earlier bed, later bed, leaving books and even his tablet to play with when he wakes but he still has to wake us all up, over and over (every 10-15 mins) until at least one of us gets up with him. He then demands immediate play and attention the minute we're up.

It's draining. I totally accept that it's just part of his body clock and we need to make allowances, but any suggestions would be really appreciated.

Nhs assessments start with your gp yes but you have a long fight on your hands due to cuts. You will have to demand an assessment and then be put on a waiting list and it can take a year or even two to get somewhere. Or you can go private, costs can be up to £2k but it has to be a centre recognised by your local authority or they won't recognise the diagnosis. If he is asd or adhd, whilst it's very helpful to know there isn't a magic pill that will fix this behaviour, you will still need some very strict boundaries in place. I have one at home so I feel your pain but the gro clock coupled with nothing but unpleasant and boring experiences before 7am has worked for us. He now sings in his room til then, which can still be annoying but earplugs work well.

I absolutely feel your pain. We've tried later bed times (he still gets up early and is just more argumentative during the day). Food and drink ready for him in the morning. Books activities etc ready for him. Hard line, soft line, everything.

Great this worked for you. We've tried 2 different groclocks, first one worked for a week then he ignored it. we tried second one with zero impact.

My 9 year old did this until recently. He has an ASD/ADHD diagnosis.

I would advise asking his teachers if they've noticed any of the behaviours you describe (apart from the getting up at 5am one, obviously!). They might ge able to signpost you for a referral.

Yep, the later he goes to bed just means he's up at 5-530, just grumpier!

Another one agreeing itonlytakesonetree. Get him told how you need sleep. If my 7 or 8 year old woke me up without an amazing reason before 7 am I would not be polite about it.

Also, if there are additional needs then 'sticking to your guns' as per PP advice isn't gonna work DS1 has always slept for shorter periods than 'normal' kids; at 9yo he does 9pm to 6am, with the odd lie-in until 7 at weekends.

I am with the OP on this. Groclocks don't always work. My 6yo spent time unplugging it rather than using it as a clock, for example. He isn't interested in using it for its proper function.

One of mine used to do this.
I told her I needed to sleep and if she kept trying to get me up before I was ready to I’d stay in bed longer.

I definitely did not play with her or engage with her at all. Just took her back to her room, told her to play quietly till I came to get her.

I did tell her it was naughty getting me up and she would not get anything if I was up because she was shouting and making me get up. A few times I’d take her downstairs, turn the news on and lie down on the sofa and refuse completely to engage with her.

I also let her choose a toy to have in the room to play with quietly if she got up early.

I don’t think I had a lie in past 7am for years with her.

Interesting, thanks, he was suspected to have selective mutism recently but we and other teachers agreed this was totally misdiagnosed, he just hated the setting of the test and the person running the test was very intense so he clammed up. He's the youngest in his year and struggles at school. I suspect dyslexia and have wondered about ADHD. My wife is adamant it's just a phase but I'm not so sure.

Can anyone tell me what SEN is please, couple of replies mention it.

@ProudDadOfTwoBoys

Yep, the later he goes to bed just means he's up at 5-530, just grumpier!

That's exactly like my younger ones. Older ones lie in til midday easily if left so I have two extremes going on 😂

What’s he like generally during the day, at home and at school?

Believe me, we have taken a very hard verbal line when he wakes us, it makes no difference, it just upsets everyone. He seems sorry but unable to stop doing it. I imagine this route would work for many children but not this one unfortunately!

Sorry x posted.

7pm for a 7yr old is early- I know you said you’ve tried later bedtimes but patterns don’t change instantly- I’d move his bedtime to 7.30pm/7.45pm and be consistent with this and don’t get up. A 7 yr old without additional needs should understand the word no. Either he has additional needs or you’re too lax

@ProudDadOfTwoBoys SEN means special educational needs, so anything ranging from dyslexia, autism, ADHD, to a learning disability, it covers the full range.

What you say about your DS does indicate that dyslexia/ADHD/autism might be worth investigating. If it's lasted more than 6 months then it's not a phase.

I'm going to disagree with previous posters. It's actually quite normal for children to go through a phase of being quite anxious and worried and needing to be close to their parents. They are starting to be aware of the world around them and also understand that there is a possibility that something can happen to mum or dad. My daughter became a lot more clingy at this age and wanted to make sure I was close all the time, needed to know where I was etc. I actually started to let her sleep in my bed again as that's what she needed at that time.

I'm not saying it's not SEN. Impossible to diagnose over the net. However I hate how quick people are to pathologise normal developmental behaviour.

@ProudDadOfTwoBoys

Interesting, thanks, he was suspected to have selective mutism recently but we and other teachers agreed this was totally misdiagnosed, he just hated the setting of the test and the person running the test was very intense so he clammed up. He's the youngest in his year and struggles at school. I suspect dyslexia and have wondered about ADHD. My wife is adamant it's just a phase but I'm not so sure.

Can anyone tell me what SEN is please, couple of replies mention it.

Special Educational Needs OP.

He sounds very similar to my DS who is 9 and we are considering whether to ask for a referral for an assessment for.

It's exhausting isn't it? I feel for you.

The fact that selective mutism was flagged up might suggest ASD.

‘SEN’ means ‘Special Educational Needs’ so a condition such as autism (ASD), ADHD, dyslexia or a form of learning difficulty.

Our 7yo DS has always been a terrible sleeper and early riser.

He now goes to sleep around 8.30-9pm and wakes around 5.30-6am, often calling out for us several times in the night.

The only way he will now reliably go to sleep is with one of us lying on a mattress in his room next to him, and and when he calls out at night or wakes really early, one of us goes back to lie next to him for the remainder of the night. Our presence seems to reassure him into staying in bed longer, and allows us and his younger DC to get more sleep.

I think some kids are just more needy. We've accept we lose most of our evenings doing bedtime, and have to do a lots of bed hopping in the middle of the night, but it allows everyone the maximum amount of sleep with minimal fuss, anger and aggrivation.

I really don't think getting angry or "tough" with your DC is a particularly kind way of solving this problem. They have a need and are asking you for help to fullfull that need.

He loves school, he does struggle, particularly with maths. He has a lot of support work. It doesn't help he is a late Aug baby so his peers are up to a year older. Good behaviour at school. At home, very very demanding, wants to be by our side constantly, wants to play constantly (lovely, but tiring). At times he is very argumentative, very little independence, talking back a lot. Clams up if we try to talk reasonably with him about these issues.

Thank you, yes, it's upsetting and totally exhausting! (I just worked out I need to use quote instead of reply, sorry for anyone trying to follow this thread so far)

@GladysTheOstrich

The fact that selective mutism was flagged up might suggest ASD.

Yes I have been wondering about this. Thank you.

I may be completely wrong but from your last post he sounds anxious. Anxiety can be a symptom of SENs so getting him assessed via school or GP would be a good to rule in/out.