11 year old won’t go to sleep alone

[Slowyourboat]

Ugh help.
DD’s never been a particularly good sleeper. I’ve been pretty sleep deprived for the last 11 years but now later bedtimes as she gets older means DH and I barely get any time alone in the evenings.

About 4 nights a week she desperately wants someone with her as she goes to sleep. She will take any punishment-removal of screens, etc. as a fair price to pay for having someone (mainly me) with her. I don’t mind staying in her room and reading for a bit or something most nights but if she doesn’t go to sleep fairly quickly the majority of the evening’s gone.

We have tried just asking her to stay in her room whether or not she’s asleep so that dh & I can watch a programme or something but then she gets panicked that she won’t be able to sleep until late and creates such a fuss that it’s not worth it.

Obv things are a bit different at the moment and there are elements of anxiety about virus, not having the same levels of activity and interaction in the day but I think it is more of a control thing.

Dh has got really cross/upset with her this evening and told her it seems that she doesn’t care about anyone except herself.

Really need a strategy. Have tried so many things over the years but feel like we’ve failed spectacularly!

Melatonin, good calming sleep routine - herbal tea, maybe some meditation yoga together - and maybe try the sleep stories - stephen fry’s lavender story is a good start. Maybe have a worry box so she can write down things that buzz around in her head and you can talk about them the next day?

My almost 10 year old daughter has wanted to sleep with me for for the last month or so, she's not overly anxious but just needs reassurance, I started a new job just before lockdown and she's missing me, I'm happy to give her the reassurance she needs, they are only little for such a short time

OK, so she suffers from anxiety. You probably already know that reassurance doesn't help - actually it just perpetuates a vicious circle where she looks for reassurance, feels momentarily better when she receives it, then seeks it more reassurance for the next thing, or the same thing again.

Have you tried getting some counselling for your DD? As you probably already know, anxiety is a big problem to crack, but the right counselling can work wonders.

And as much as I can understand your frustration, I would try to stop the punishments for not wanting to sleep alone. Anxiety is as real as depression or any other mental illness and it is not your DD's fault

She doesn’t like staying away-occasionally at grandparents but not happily.

If I kept saying no We’d still be going past midnight which is why i tend to give in.

It’s really not about tv programmes-it’s about boundaries.

Do audio books help?

Personally, I'd go with it as much as possible. The more sleep she gets, the better able to talk about things she will be and hopefully the less anxious she will be about your reaction too. It's a vicious circle because some of her anxiety will come from not knowing whether you're going to help or get cross.

I still remember how good it felt when my mum sat by my bed and stroked my hair or face, or when my dad sat in my room and read as I drifted off. I'm happy to do the same for mine as I want them to have those memories too.

I have 3 so can't be with them all, all the time, but try to give them all a hand or stroke and sit near their door reading. They've got pretty good at letting me go to the others and will often be asleep already when I come back.

I actually find the idea of them all saying 'goodnight' and not wanting me to read or chat or be near them to end their day as more upsetting than giving up a bit of my eve for them! I'm not looking forward to the closed bedroom doors of the future.

OP, I think if you’ve tried every self-help approach you have and none of it has worked, it’s time to consult a professional (after lockdown ends, of course). If she’s this prone to anxiety it needs resolving properly, or it will blight her life and cause her to under-achieve going forward. The younger this happens for her the better the results are likely to be.

Our 11.5 year old is similar, you are not alone. Sometimes I cope with it, other times it drives me
mad. Realising it's anxiety driven not misbehaviour has helped

It’s not about boundaries with respect OP / she is clearly suffering with anxiety and needs help with that

Have you sought her any?

She is not doing this for fun, and it will distress her more than it irritates you both.

She needs your help and support, not punishment for gods sake

@Nomorewineever that sounds really similar! What did your parents do to help/what would you have liked them to do?

I have looked into counselling When she was going through a phase before but it improved before we got anywhere. Will look again for after lockdown or maybe look online? I doubt she will like the idea

Yes I can see that not knowing if I will get cross or not isn’t helping. I feel awful but it is so frustrating especially when I’m tired myself.

So if you’re ‘pottering about’ she goes to bed but if you and DH are settling down together she kicks off?
Sounds more manipulative than worry, she obviously doesn’t want you spending time together and when you’re ‘pottering’ you’re not together.
I’d be very firm with her and be prepared to have a night where you keep sending her back up or better yet, go to your bed at the same time. She’s controlling everyone i the house.

Audiobooks sometimes help and sometimes keep her awake listening to them.

Mediation stories often help but she is pretty resistant to using them as she wants me instead. Sometimes we listen to them together.

Totally disagree JKScot4!

With respect I was exactly the same as this young girl at her age and was diagnosed with an anxiety disorder and have suffered all my life

She is not manipulative At all from what I’ve read

@Imknackered
you disagree because you sympathise, I’m looking at it differently from you and can see how she only does it under certain circumstances which is manipulative, if she was anxious it would be very night.

@JKScot4

I can only speak from experience yes, but in my case it wasn’t every night for whatever reason; and certain things helped and other things didn’t

If my mum was doing different things I would feel more anxious than others. Hard to explain but it was the same.

We have to be very careful here, as if her parents decide she is just manipulative and she is indeed suffering with severe anxiety- think of the damage that could be done

We also need to see that on MN the go to is SEN, anxiety etc never a child might be manipulative, badly behaved etc, it’s always let’s leap to a diagnosis.
I’ve re read the posts by OP and yes she may have worries but I can see manipulative behaviour too, only under certain circumstances does she do this and it’s clear to see when and why she’s doing it.

I don't think OP is being unreasonable to want to chill in the evening with DH and not have to sleep next to an 11 year old.
I used to listen to the radio as a teenager and drift of to sleep that way. I haven't got any advice but watching to see ..
I hope it works out for you

I do think there’s a manipulative element.
My ideal approach would be a firm but kind one of gradually retreating or popping in every 15 mins or so but it’s her panic at not being able to sleep that is the tricky bit to overcome.

If you are firm and keep sending her back in she will fall asleep, just be prepared for a long crappy night but hopefully one night of you standing firm will work.
Could you & DH go to your bed at the same time?

Sorry OP I’m a bit confused - you acknowledge she panics about not being able to sleep, then you say you think there’s a manipulative element

How can that be? If she genuinely is suffering with this panic as you say, when exactly is she manipulating?

If she's being manipulative, there's still a reason behind it.

It sounds very much like the root cause of the behaviour is anxiety. Pushing a child away and punishing them when their anxiety is getting the better of them is only likely to increase the anxiety.

As you've said her behaviour is generally manageable, it's very unlikely that she's suddenly doing a flip and turning into a spoilt brat every evening.

You need to unpick this really carefully with her to work out why she's so anxious and what could help. The solution may be something that's not in any way associated with bed time. Work on making small, manageable changes that you think might help. Try some grounding or mindfulness techniques with her.

The fear of being left alone may be making it hard to relax when you are with her. Try agreeing to stay with her for as long as she needs you for a while and remove all the pressure for her to manage alone.

She probably feels as bad as you do about the stressful evenings so try to work on them as a team. She will feel less anxious if she knows you're on her side.

What is the panic about not sleeping about? Can she articulate it? Even if she spent all night awake, what then? What terrible things does she think might happen?

I’d be tempted to get her to articulate that. By believing so much is riding on her sleeping she is probably putting far too much pressure on herself to sleep, and this is totally counterproductive. Ironically, if she just gave up on the idea of sleep and accepted she won’t, this would remove the pressure and she’d probably sleep. But even if she didn’t, she’d find out nothing too terrible happens. Yes, she’d be knackered, but that’s it. She’d survive. She’d cope. And then the next night she’d have no problem sleeping.

You are not alone OP. My 9 yr old DS is exactly the same. He has been like it all his life and is a real worrier. He's never happily slept alone in his own bed and about 18 months ago we got in the habit of him sleeping in our bed because the sleep deprivation was killing us (both DH and I work full time). I saw a counsellor myself as I had a few unhelpful but well meaning friends make me feel like I was setting DS up with problems for life by sleeping in the same bed with him every night and started to feel guilty and anxious myself. The counsellor explained to me that a lot of this is about control. Children with anxiety tend to want to find security where they can, he suggested trying to get DS to suggest what to do to help get him back into his own bed and really listen to what he said, thus giving control of the situation to him but having a firm goal. He was also very reassuring that things would get better in the end and got me to imagine DS as an adult having come through it all (I was similar when I was a child and I turned out alright in the end!) It's taken a while as to start with he wasn't ready to even try but now he is in his own room with one of us on a bed made up on the floor. This is progress for us and he is going to sleep with no one next to him, he has agreed in a few weeks that we can leave when he's asleep and hopefully we can move on from there. Of course we have had progress like this in the past only to go right back to square one when something starts to worry him. Have also found in the past if we've got frustrated or pushed him too quickly we go backwards. But I am feeling quite hopeful at the moment. He's very good at sharing his worries with me- we also did 'what to do when you worry too much' which did open my eyes to what's going on in his head. We, like you have tried literally everything over the years. There are definitely times when he is worse, usually some sort of change like the run up to starting a new year in school sets him off. It's really hard to cope with and also like you, DH and I don't get an evening together or in fact sleep in the same bed at the moment. I'm not sure any of this is helpful to you, just wanted you to know you're not the only one with a child like this so solidarity- I just keep thinking one day it will all pass..

@tolleshunt
I think you may have just helped me make a connection.
She is terrified of being sick. Cries if anyone else is sick.
I have told her before when she wasn’t sleeping well (Before she started with the worry about not being able to sleep) that she would make herself ill if she didn’t get enough sleep. I bet she has linked that to being sick. I’ll see if I can unpick it with her tomorrow-thank you!

She knows in theory that worrying about sleeping is counter productive. I think having me there is a short cut but We’ll try other techniques again