I can't go on like this anymore - support needed!

[lulupop]

Have posted a few times now about combined problems of DS and DD;s sleeping. Have now reached point where I feel I don't know how I'm going to get through today, never mind any more nights.

DS (2.9) was a dreadful sleeper from birth but now is OK. He wakes once in the night for a drink (can never find it on his own, despite night light) and once early morning for nappy change and milk (usually drops off again after this).

DD (20 weeks) started off nowmally, for a newborn. I was feeding her 3 times a night. Then she started not settling back after her first night feed (at aroun 10-11pm). I have tried a dummy, but she just spits it out and won't settle for anything other than breast. Although co-sleeping means no-sleeping for me (I'm a v light sleeper and she wriggles a lot), I've ended up bringing her into bed with me and spending the rest of the night feeding lying down, whihc at least doesn;t require me to remember not to drop her. I can;t sleep while feeding lying down though .

Last night she literally fed all night through. She seems to be almost asleep throughout, but the minute I withdraw nipple, she screams.

The few times I did drop off, DS woke with a bad dream, and our neighbours came in late, banging door and shouting (woke me, baby and DS - this happens quite a lot)

DD feeds well and regularly throughout the day (about every 3 hours or less), and only has 2 30-40 min naps during daytime, so I can;t reduce her day sleep or feed her any more, really.

I have tried the last 3 days to give baby rice at teatime, both before and after a BF. She takes it but then spits it all out and starts gagging if I try and put it further back in her mouth. So I couldn't get her to take any. Not sure if solids will help her sleep more but I feel it's worth a try - can anyone tell me what other than baby rice might be successful? I gave DS mashed banana but someone told me anything other than baby rice would upset dd's tummy too much.

Sorry about the rambling incoherent nature of this post but I am just too knackered to organise my thoughts. Please help me

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Hi Lulupop, sorry to hear about this. You really need to start the solids first thing in the morning and build them up during the day to get a full tummy for the night. Give her a few minutes of breast milk first to satisy her hunger and then try the solids. You could try some stewed apple, why not mix it with the rice? Butternut squash is a bit fiddly to cook but you can freeze it too. Mashed carrot?

Do you have a weaning book to help you? How about a trip to your HV for some advice?

Sounds like DD is using you as a dummy and you're going to have to be cruel to be kind otherwise this will go on and on if you let it. I would suggest she is definitely ready for solids.

As Twiglett says at 2.9 your DS should be going through the night. It has probably just got a habit to call for you, then have his nappy changed and another drink. Why does he need an early morning nappy change? If he's very wet you can either get nappy liners (like mega sanitary towels) or I think you need to cut down on the drinking. What is the drink he has? Make sure it's just water then he won't be so keen to wake for it, also the early morning drink can be water too.

He'll be starting nursery soon (if he hasn't already) so he's going to need all the sleep he can get. Have you tried to explain to him that you are very tired and can't get up in the night to find his drink?

Is he in a bed now?

Hope this helps, mine are 5 and 9 now!

Hi lulupop

Have you tried pick up put down during the day and at night to encourage her to sleep in her own bed if don't want her in your bed? This may seem like hard work when you are so tired but you need your sleep. I think she should still have about 3 sleeps a day at her age - do you put her back to bed after about 2 hours? I used to put my dd back to bed if she woke up so quickly after a sleep. She was still tired so I would keep putting her back to bed or getting into bed with her (but I don't have a 2nd child to mind). She got the picture eventually and now sleeps very well in the day. But some babies sleep only for short periods in the day dispite our wishes.

If she does not want the dummy then don't push the issue - but also would not encourage constant latch on to the breast. This will be a hard habit to break.

Like Twiglett said - your ds is more than capable of sleeping through unless he has a bad dream. So even though he will protest very loudly - try encouage him to drink himself - can you attach bottle to a string so it stays in one area?

Your dd might still not be ready for food at 20 weeks and her gag reflex is still strong by the sounds of things. The experts say that that generally food at this age does not guarentee sleeping through. Your dd will be waking frequently because a bf is right there. She needs to slowly learn that night is for sleep and not for bf. Banana can make your baby constipated.
My dd is almost 11 months now and recently to cut out the night time bf I started giving her water from a tipee bottle.

hth and good luck

Lulupop,
Im not surprised you are so tired.
I dont have any first hand experience as my dd is only 16 weeks but heres some advice that might be worth a go.
1)Agree with the above to wean DS of the morning drink. If this doesnt work could you get a small bedside table to put his drink on. That way he should easily find it. Put a night light on the table so he can see it.
2)Theres a book by elizabeth pantley which gives good tips about taking the baby off the breast to stop them wanting to suck again. May take a few days but its worth a go. You basically hold their chin with a finger when you unlatch them. Let me know and ill dig the book out and give you more detail.
3)If DD is feeding during the day every 3 hrs then there is no need for her to be feeding all night other than comfort or a growth spurt.
4) I dont think reducing her naps would do anything as she would then be so overtired shed sleep less.
5)They do say that it takes a while for babies to get used to eating solids. Could it just be taking her a bit longer to learn how to eat it. Could you let her suck some off your finger first. I have also read that solids esp baby rice doesnt contain as much fat as breast milk and so doesnt nessesarily make them fuller.

One other thing which I found by mistake. Ashtons and Parsons. Its for tething and restlessness and is just camomile so safe to give. I gave it to dd the night before last and she had the longest stretch of sleep ever and woke up in the best mood yesterday, I think it helps insomnia in adults. MAY BE WORTH A GO.
Or express some milk, enough for 3hourly feeding and get DH to feed her on a saturday night, you will feel better after just one full nights sleep. I do this every friday and it works a treat.

Thanks for your replies. I know DS shouldn't need help finding his drink in the night but after 2 years of sleep training I just find it's easier to go in quickly before he fully wakes, and give it to him. If left, he wakes up completely, turns his light on to find the drink, and then is awake for ages looking at books. Fine, except his chattering keeps me awake too.

He just has water at night, milk in morning.If I don't give him milk in morning, he just stays awake and that means my day starts at 5am. He is then vile by 3 in the afternoon, but if I let him nap at that time, I can't get him to bed before 9pm. Normally he doesn't sleep during the day and hasn't since 20 months. Neither of my children seems very big on sleep

He goes to nursery 3 afternoons a week, butthis doesn't seem to tire him out more than before.

DD genuinely seems hungry all night. She likes a dummy in the day but not at night, and refuses water. I might get DH to do a feed but TBH I tend to wake up anyway the minute I hear her, and he's just started a new job so I want him to get enough sleep to focus on that.

Sorry rambling again, must go to Sainsburys - I've been putting it off for 3 days now and there's no food in the house!

Lulupop - I totally sympathise with you. It is sheer torture when you are sleep deprived and that is not helping you to make decisions.
Firstly, I agree with everyone else that ds should sleep the night now. What time does he go to bed? If he went to bed at say 8pm would that help him go through to a reasonable hour? Could dh not be the one who gets up to him given that you are doing all the work with the baby? I'm afraid that it sounds to me as though giving him a drink in the night is adding to your problems by making his nappy wet early in the morning. What will you do when he is potty trained which surely can't be far away? You will have to cut the drink then or every night he will have a wet bed or you will have to get up with him to help him on the toilet.
Your dd is a bit harder although personally I would have had her on solids long ago. You can tell if she needs solids because she will be hungry in the day as well as at nights. I don't believe she does need to feed all night. She wants you near for comfort and security and it sounds as though she is in a habit that you may find hard to break. Can I suggest something that worked to some extent for 2 of my children. Could you try giving her a bottle of formula milk last thing in the evening. It may work better if dh did it. Formula milk helped mine to sleep longer. Your milk supply is getting low in the evening, especially as you are tired, and one bottle of formula won't stop her breastfeeding the rest of the time. If you go to bed before she has that bottle, you may get a good chunk of sleep before she wakes up for more - maybe even 5-6 hours. I know some people will shout me down here and say it is better to exclusively breast feed, but you sound really at your wit's end to me and what is most important is getting you and your family through this difficult time. Do whatever it takes, I say. Honestly, a bottle of formula a day will not harm her and may be the answer you are looking for.

Just to clarify: your dh could give dd a bottle at about 10 pm. That would mean he doesn't have to miss out on his own sleep so he can concentrate on his new job. Getting up to ds doesn't sound very hard if all he wants is the water. Or does your dh find it hard to go back to sleep again?
Also, someone else mentioned it, but I agree, that you need to put dd down during the day, awake. Leave her to cry a few minutes before going back to her. She needs to know that she can go to sleep by herself. Then she will be more likely to do it at night. Make yourself do this. Shut the door so you don't hear her crying if it upsets you. Tell yourself you will check up on her every 5 minutes. You may be surprised how quickly she goes to sleep on her own. It may well be that if you put her back in her own bed at night, her crying would not last too long either. You may think she will wake up ds (I've been there with this problem as I have 4 children and they share 2 rooms) but actually they often sleep through another one making enough noise to wake the dead!

Thanks Lonelymum for your nice post. One thing I did manage to get sorted early on was that DD, though breastfed, would accept a bottle, and I have tried formula in the evenings. Tonight I had a marginal success with the baby rice (about half of the teaspoon I made up stayed in her!). Then at bedtime I sat down to breastfeed and she kept unlatching and screaming. After about 5 mins I squeezed both sides and NOTHING came out. Not a drop. This has never happened before. So I gave her a bottle of formula and she drained 6 oz.

I have found in the past though that formula at bedtime doesn't make her sleep any longer

I do put her down for naps and at bedtime awake, and she goes off on her own (bit of grumbling but OK). In the night it's a different matter though. I agree with you that she can't need to feed constantly - she must just want the comfort. I am steeling myself to do a bit of leaving her to cry, which I find very hard but having gone through hell with DS I am determined to do it earlier this time. I need to start on a weekend when DH is around though.

My real problem is I am a bit control freaky about feeding and routines for both children, as I like to know exactly what has happened. I know this is not really very sensilbe, but DH never sticks to what I think we should be doing (eg he will give DS milk in the night, let him get into bed with him etc), and it's caused so many arguments in the past I just feel I'd rather do things properly myself now. We have talked about it and talked about it, and I explain why I don't want DS to have milk etc, and DH seems to understand, but when it comes down to it he always just does whatever it takes to get back to sleep as quickly as possible.

As for DS' potty training... don't get me started! I have tried every trick in the book, and he is just not interested. Loves to watch all his friends going, but won't do it himself. Lots of people have told me boys often aren;t ready till 3 so I'm hoping he'll pick up some interest in the next couple of months. Just seems like one more thing to worry about right now

lulupop - you have too much trouble with the sleeping to be even thinking about potty training your DS. That is not a priority for you at the moment so forget about it. Is there anyone else who can help you at all - or is it just you and DH?

god lulupop you poor poor poor thing...when ds (and i only have one!) did this at around the same age (4 1/2 months) I was a wits end...

the thing that worked for us was

1 structuring night feeds, basically leaving a 3 hour (ish) gap between feeds no matter what so that he was really hungry and fed properly rather than snacking thro the night which he had been doing (waking up every hour for a couple of mins feed then dropping off again)

and 2 leaving him to cry one horrible lunchtime. took around 40 (terrible) mins, but we never had to repeat it.

between getting his feeds back on track, starting solids and getting him able to sleep by himself he's been great ever since.

we tried pick up put down and controlled crying neither of which worked (he'd just get more and more upset).

it probably sounds babarically hard, but i was at the point where i found myself banging my head against the back of a chair whilst feeding ds at 4am having not had any sleep of more than a couple of hours for 3 or 4 days.

and once we had the horrible couple of days where we tried all of this, we've never looked back. i never leave him to cry now (cause i know it's not habit and go and comfort him immediately). and he sleeps brilliantly (apart from the occasional early morning )

it may not work for you, but i thought i'd share what worked for us. can't help with ds1 (not there yet!), but agree that now is probably not the time for potty training!

lulupop if I was in your situation I would definitely ask for some help from Gina Ford (although others here will disagree). She used to charge £15 for a telephone consultation. Don't know if she still does it. Her first book, The Contented Little Baby gives brilliant easy to follow weaning advice.
Whatever you do look after yourself and get some sleep. (I think you maybe need to go away for a night and come back and look at things afresh?)xxx

Lots and lots of sympathy to you. My ds was a nightmare too. To be perfectly frank, have my moments when I absolutely dread my new baby arriving. I might try harder with the dummy and really try to space those night feeds - your dh should be doing his share here. Talk to him (not at 3am!) about what you want to do - wait at least 2.5 - 3hours between night feeds - why - because you feel desperate and ill - and how he can help - ie doing a shift in the night where he comforts the baby without feeding her. Or split your night, so you do the first part of the night, then when it is time for a feed, give her to dh to do a bottlefeed and go back to bed.
Forget potty training. My ds is three (just!) and not ready yet. It's to much stress for you. But he should be sleeping through by now. I suspect the milk at night is actually waking him early by getting his digestion going when it should be shut down, and so making his nappy wet etc.
My ds didn't sleep properly at night until 8months, so I know how you feel. He was also a sucking maniac. HOrrible, isn't it? Are you getting breaks for naps during the day and at weekends? YOu must - for the sake of your health and sanity.

Last night no better with DD even though she had some solids at tea and a goodd big feed at bedtime. On the plus side, DH dealt with DS when he woke with a bad dream, and he then slept (DS) till 8am.

DD in bed with me again, fed all night, now happy as larry.

I am going to get DH to do the 11pm feed on Friday, and go to bed at 8pm myself. That way hopefully I should at least get to 1am, maybe 2am, in one chunk of sleep.

I am definitely going to do the CC, but was wondering perhaps if I might have more success by waiting to start once she's properly established on solids (i.e. lunchtime and teatime)? Then I'll feel more comfortable about her having eaten enough in the day, and (hopefully) will be able to leave her to cry more easily. My reserves of patience are quite low at the moment so I[m going to need to see a quick improvement once we start!

Sophable - I know where you're coming from with the headbanging exhaustion! Happened to me with DS and now again with DD... but this time I'm determined to resolve things earlier on. Definitely not having any more children though.

Going to gym now. It must be the lack of sleep making me somewhat manic, but gym's the only time I get to myself, so I'm loathe not to go. Hopefully I'll feel more energised afterwards.

Dear Lulupop,
First of all, I'm sorry if I gave the impression you should think about potty training now. That was not what I meant! I just meant, it will be an issue eventually and it would be nice if ds wasn't still drinking at night when you start it. BTW, re potty training, don't worry: my ds1 was nearly three before he got started and only then because I thought he should. It needed me telling him he was going to stop using nappies for him to be the least interested. Remember that when you are ready to start: the idea may have to come from you. Also, don't give in to outside pressure as to when to potty train him. It may seem to you that he is the only boy his age who is in nappies, but, long after he is in pants, I bet you all sorts of people come out of the woodwork and admit their child was late being trained too!
Anyway, all that is an aside. I am rather disappointed that you don't find that your dd sleeps longer after formula milk but I still would recommend that you continue with it for the reason that you give: the last feed can be done by dh and you can go to bed earlier and get some sleep in before she wakes up for the next feed. I really think that is so important for you. I am sorry to say it, but even though my youngest is 19 months, I rarely get 8 hours sleep a night (mainly though because I go to bed too late) and my eledest is 8 so this has been going o for years! In all that time I have learnt that we can't always immediately solve every problem children present us with, so sometimes we have to compromise and your compromise for now might be spending your evening in bed asleep.
Meanwhile, keep plugging away at the solids: you know from ds that once she gets the idea, you can increase amounts and add new foods quite quickly. Also, if you are up to it, do keep trying the CC: the younger you start, the quicker she will get the message!
Do keep in touch and let us know how you are getting on. I do feel for you so much.

Well, am trying to do the sensible thing and this evening gave DD BF at teatime, the offered her today's treat... sweet potato! I was sure she would like this better than baby rice, but she just did the same: worked it round her mouth till it came out. After 30 mins she had had half a teaspoon (mixed with a little EBM). Then at bedtime, a bottle. Then put her down wide awake. She screamed. Went in to settle her and offer more milk (she hadn;t finished the bottle) 3 times, then decided she definitely wasn't hungry and left her. 5 mins of blood curdling screaming later, she conked out. For 40 mins. More screaming, only assuaged by offering breast (although she wasn't actually hungry). Now she is asleep again. But I know that when she wakes, all she really wants is the comfort of Mummy. I feel so mean leaving her to scream but I can't let her only settle for me, or how will DH/my mum/babysitter cope when we go out for dinner or I go out for a drink with a friend (my current ambition )?
Am going to try and stretch time between feeds tonight, and offer water again between feeds.
As for potty training - he is now starting to show some interest in pull up pants so maybe we'll get going, but you're right Lonelymum, I'm not that bothered yet and if it's going to have to come from me, I'd rather wait until I can focus more on that.

Hi lulupop- have read the first few threads so apologies if I'm repeating what someone else is saying. Have you got a Sure Start group in your area. If so ask if they've got a hv who can help. Our local surestart has a hv who helps with all sorts- massage, first aid, language and play etc etc and she'll visit at home to help/guide with specific problems- or is there a local barnados with a hv attached- they'd do it as well. ask at gp for surestart

How did last night go Lulupop? Sometimes a lot of waking up and screaming in the evening wears them out and they sleep better later on. I am hopeful for you!

Well, most of the night was as hideous as ever, till I finally lost it at about 4.30 this morning. She was wriggling around and chuntering next to me again (only about 15 mins after unlatching from last feed) and after a whole night feeding her, I shouted (poor baby) "What the hell's the matter with you?" (not one of my finer parenting moments!). To my surprise she just stopped chuntering and lay there cooing to herself after that. At 5am I put her in her cot, turned the mobile on, and returned to bed alone, and fell back asleep. She must have done too as next thing I knew DH was waking me up as he got dressed for work, and DD still asleep in cot!

Tonight am going to try and get her in there earlier on.

Lulupop I would really recommend that you put your baby in another room to sleep if this is at all possible. Nothing will happen to your little girl if she is left to cry for a while. I would definitely get your husband to do the late feeds and definitely persevere with some solids (don't forget to take her hunger away first). You could try the food on your finger instead of a spoon.

I used to find if my baby was in my room I would wake up at her first snuffle and she wouldn't wake for another 30 minutes. If she's in another room you won't wake until she cries.

Just remember every day it will get easier as they grow.

I do put her down in another room - her room is just next to ours - and she goes down fine (apart from last night). It;s when she wakes for the feed that she won't go back.

I am like you and having her in with me means I'm awake with every sniff from her, so this morning when she went back in her cot was heaven for me.

Will be leaving her to cry again tonight, just for a bit. She'll get the message eventually. I hope.

I think what happened the night before last is a great breakthrough, Lulupop! And who can blame you for shouting at dd at 4:30 am? You would need to be a saint not to! Perhaps this shows you that she does not need to be with you as much as you think. Try to put her back in her room after a reasonable feeding time and if she cries then, well, give her a chance to stop before rushing back to her. As long as it doesn't disturb ds, it will not put you out more than keeping her with you is doing.
Are you feeling any better after your little chunk of sleep?

Lulupop, feed her completely in the dark, don't say a word to her, don't change her unless she's dirty. HTH.

Last night bad again - fed her at 11pm, put her back in cot, 15 mins later her hysteria dragged me back in, comforted, left again, ended up in bed together. Put her in cot with mobile again later, but it turned out to be 6am by then! I'd thought it was about 3am as I was still feeling so sleepy.

I do feed her in the dark, don't talk, and never change her nappy (thank you Pampers BabyDry )

Tonight we will be having some more screaming I think - and that's just me...

Oh dear Lulupop, think she's just after a cuddle all night! Get in bed early and try and get 6 hours before the first feed with DH doing the late one. Are you getting all her wind up? She's not burping and finding she's not so full after all is she?

Best of luck tonight. Thinking of you now (but hopefully won't be thinking of you in the middle of the night IYKWIM!)